Skills

[psycho_leo]

Don't take me wrong. I'm not trying to dismiss the hours you have put into it and if I'm coming off like that I'm sorry. That said, what's fair or not balance wise must have a place in a discussion about something that alters game mechanics. I'm not trying to pull teh rug from under your or anyone's feet. But teh ability to set traps is not one that anyone that has ever played a rogue takes for granted. It is, whether a bioware invention or not, an often used tactic by most, if not all rogue PCs. So the fact that taking it off is being considered merits a discussion. I do however, like your idea of tying it somehow to survival for the most simple traps (is survival a class skill btw?). I'm not at all supporting that we should have stupidly high dmg traps. I myself never had one in ALFA, but I can certainly see the value in using teh lesser ones, like spike and tangle. You may not be able to make a marathon of pain out of those, but they make for good tactical use and help a great deal with low level survivability.

Also, maybe that's just my experience TDawg, but I find much easier to get sneak attacks in NWN1 than in 2.

[Veilan]

Personally, I like the idea of the ability to set traps, within reasonable limits. That you claim that every rogue uses them may be either pointing to its popularity and playing interest, or to the fact that it may be very powerful.

Should it be discussed and considered? Definetely. And your opinion is heard on the topic.

I don't think it's anyone's goal to remove gameplay abilities - just as ATD said, he's loathe to remove parry, not because it's so useful or popular, but because it is a fun little thing we can do in game, and we'd lose from our game.

Just take into account our standards - sure, we can't and won't be able to simulate many PnP properties. However, we have an incredible flexibility in other areas to try to make up for it.

The impression that ALFA is "out to nerf" or something, which used to be kept by some folks, really is undeserved. It is, I believe, founded on the fact that the NWN CRPGs are putting in some incredible power boosts to make every class viable to solo through massive combat encounters. Thus, most shifts take away from that ability and seem like nerfing. But it's definetely not the rule - just take the removing of the unilateral nerfing of paladins and rangers. It's never been properly proposed to standards, but I can bet you the discussion would go along the lines of "well in 3.5... 3.5 is not binding... and as long as they don't get skill points, detect evil and mounts, why take away from established abilities, non-overpowering abilities?".

It's a give and take, really, and preserving or adding game play options while maintaining a decent balance for a PW makes it all incredibly tricky.

Cheers,

[darrenhfx]

Here's a facts-only breakdown:

- a total of 30 available slots for skills in skills.2da

- 3 currently disabled skills (animal empathy, discipline, ride)
- 4 crafting-related skills (alchemy, armour, trap, weapon)
- 5 non-canon skills (disable trap, parry, set trap, taunt, lore)
- 18 canon skills (concentration, heal, hide, listen, move silently, open lock, perform*, diplomacy, sleight of hand, search, spellcraft, spot, use magic device, appraise, tumble, bluff, intimidate, survival)

- 19 canon skills not implemented (balance, climb, craft*, decipher script, disguise, escape artist, forgery, gather information, handle animal, jump, knowledge*, profession*, ride, sense motive, speak language**, swim, use rope)

* denotes a skill that contains a number of fields (e.g. knowledge-arcane, knowledge-architecture and engineering, etc.)
** denotes that speak language has a work-around system in place currently (haven't checked to see how closely it mirrors the canon system)

(the term canon refers to the skills listed in the PHB Vers. 3.5)

If I missed anything let me know and I'll edit this list.

[danielmn]

I would love to see the set minor traps come to fruition for rangers personally. As Ranger has, is, and always will be my favorite class to play, I was a little off-put that they had no set trap whatsoever...something anyone who can survive in the wilderness by themselves would know how to do. Personally, I would probably never even use traps against enemies...or to set up "ambushes", but would rely on them more as a form of protecting a base camp at night, or hunting for game.
Kudos to the AL, you are by far one of the more inspirational people I've met in ALFA.

Daniel

[AcadiusLost]

Thanks to Darren for running the numbers- I didn't have the materials at hand to draw from, or the time to work them out- but it's essential for framing the debate in my eyes.

PL: my frustration was more to witch's "typical ALFA" chant than your posts. Hopefully it's clear from my responses that I do see value in maintaining a balance of class abilities represented by the game engine (read as: not requiring a DM to use). I tend to shy away from weighing in on what is balanced, versus what isn't- as from my seat it seems like a lot of balancing apples for oranges, and I was never one of those "Spider man could totally beat batman" arguers in my youth. I tend to offer plus/minus sentiments from the gut, but I don't have any golden calculator upstairs that tells me that X is downright unacceptable, but Y is a needed improvement. To some extent in my view, "balancing" the character classes is a pretty arbitrary business. I'd aim more for keeping each class unique and interesting to play, rather than splitting hairs over whether this or that shift "affects the game balance". Granted, this sort of perspective is also why I stayed clear of Standards work, other than helping here and there on the implementation end.

Working from Darren's numbers, we've got a soberingly small number of slots to work with, even if we took a free hand to delete all those contentious NWN-skills. One of the nice pluses for rogues in PnP comes from the fact that there are such a huge number of potentially useful skills in PnP, and all but a handful are class skills for them- meaning the rogue is your automatic expert in just about everything that isn't spellcasting or whacking monsters. The fewer we have to offer, the less sweet that deal looks. Unless Obsidian clears that limitation, we're looking at a compromise position in any case.

So, to me our options seem to be:

1. drop a few of the least contentious skills, use those slots for our "top picks" among the missing PnP skills. (say, lose craft alchemy, craft trap, taunt, and add sense motive, speak language, climb, gather information, disguise, and handle animal, for example)

2. decide that with the limited room for skill changes, this is an area we will have to deviate from PnP, and leave all the coded skills in place, perhaps adding 1-3 "top" custom skills in the disabled slots.

3. Some point in between- decide which skills we can part with, and which we need in place, drop in PnP skills where and how we can.

(could also be a 4. - drop all noncanon, add canon till we can't add no more- but realistically, I don't see this as a feasible option currently.)

Anyone feel like weighing in on the above? As I've said, to me, this is a place where I'd like to see a decision we hold to from day 1 of NWN2-live onwards, so we're not looking at rebuilding or switching around abilities that are already built up and in play.

[Brokenbone]

I am really not sure where this "Survival = mild trapmaking" thing, came from, except off the cuff someplace. If people are arguing against the videogame skill of "Set Traps" I can describe that the PnP equivalent would, at least for mechanical traps, be "Craft (Trapmaking)."

Unfortunately, "Craft (Trapmaking)" in PnP, when you look it up, involves weeks, months, or maybe even YEARS to create and install a trap. Depends upon how much your weekly progress in successful craft rolls gets you, toward the overall value of the finished trap.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#cra ... nicalTraps
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm

Most DMs are used to this being a fantasy game, but still might be surprised at what kinds of ridiculous numbers the Crafting system spits out. If asked by a player, "how long for my party to dig a 6 foot hole and put these old kobold spears in it, and cover with burlap and leaves", a DM might ballpark 12 hours or something.

However, when you look it up on the SRD site, even the crappiest pit trap with camoflage is listed at 1800gp market value!

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#cr1 ... gedPitTrap

This means it's a DC20 Craft (Trapmaking) check for I suppose whoever is in charge, you probably progress about 40gp value per week of successful checks (i.e., hitting DC20 right on the nose every time, and never failing any week), so we are looking at 45 WEEKS' WORK.

Yeah. Digging a 10 foot deep hole and sticking spears in it and covering with leaves and whatnot = 45 weeks, if you stick to the Crafting system DnD comes with. Maybe faster if you have a few circumstance bonus items and manage to really beat those DCs every week. I guess though that anyone coming along and noticing the trap, can instantly (well, 2d4 rounds) make a Disable Device check and disarm it. In this case, since it's a pit, see the "Pit" subsection of the Disable Device description... probably could just uncover and flag it, or get a crew to start filling it with dirt or making bridges.

...

Anyhow, before going too deeply into "PnP rules are to be preferred above NWN's" debates, take a look at the actual rules in question to see if they are likely to be a good or bad thing for DMs & players to still enjoy the game with.

If the concern in this case is really on "overpowered" traps, handle this on the supply side. Divide them for once and for all into three (or four)categories:

(1) Mechanical - Common - Cheap
(2) Alchemical - Uncommon - Moderate Price
(3) Magical - Rare - High Price
(4) Too silly for our game world - Illegal - No Price, Remove from Game

Spikes and tanglers, Joe Trapper in a backwoods hut might sell, other things might come from moderate to large sized cities and towns, if they support alchemists and wizards. Things like, say, "Epic Electrical Kit" we might just always list as a banned item.

Note I am speaking in terms of standard trap kits because despite the PnP list of things like "Wire Across Hallway" or "Pit Trap", I cannot imagine how we would have builders actually create the hundred or so traps at this link: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#sampleTraps

CEP only managed about 6 to 10 traps (rolling boulders, whirling blades, etc.) over the course of several years, ALFA won't do any better.

ALFA's combat intense, like it or not, it might be lovely to have Errol Flynn rogues swinging on curtains or chandeliers (Use Rope?) and doing a backflip (Perform? Tumble?) onto the evil king's banquet table to challenge him, but I do not imagine that level of Z-axis control, walkmesh management or vfx being foreseeable. I can picture putting a spike trap on his throne beforehand though, that's something NWN can handle. If you want full control in a PnP style, play PnP either around a table or over platforms like Fantasygrounds. Sourcebooks like the Complete Scoundrel's Handbook are recommended in such case, though virtually none of the ideas there seem capable of implementation into NWN. Net, having fun and maybe surviving with a rogue PC in NWN2 should still be a goal here. Can't brawl, can't hurl offensive spells, can't buff or heal, apparently can sneak (poorly?), so tinkering with what little is left to them ought be done only if absolutely critical to balance.

On the lighter side, if anyone remembers the cheesy old TV show MacGyver, this list might give you a chuckle... all of the traps and gadgets surely took time in the order of minutes, to fit within the show's hour-long running time. It's always entertaining to pull a last trick out of one's sleeve, possibly wowing the much more obviously powerful classes who might party up with a rogue:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pr ... y_MacGyver

[psycho_leo]

Personally, I like the idea of the ability to set traps, within reasonable limits. That you claim that every rogue uses them may be either pointing to its popularity and playing interest, or to the fact that it may be very powerful.

So? The relative power of set trap is not in the skill itself. Its more in the type of traps than anything else. Traps are a way for a rogue to "soften up" enemies before they can get into melee range and deal horrible pain. Seems natural that most players would make use of them.

Those are the trap dmg we have in NWN according to BB to get you a better idea. Some of those values are indeed quite insane (25d6 for a deadly spike trap for instance), but at the same time those super traps have high DCs for setting. I wouldn't mind getting rid of the more obscene ones though.

Acid Splash:
Min - 2d8
Avg - 3d8
Stg - 5d8
Dead - 8d8

Blob Acid
Min - 3d6
Avg - 5d6
Stg - 12d6
Dead - 18d6

Electric (has large area)
Min - 6d8
Avg - 15d6
Stg - 20d6
Dead - 30d6

Fire (has small to medium area)
Min - 5d6
Avg - 6d8
Stg - 15d6
Dead - 25d6

Frost
Min - 2d4
Avg - 3d4
Stg - 5d4 + 2r para
Dead - 8d4 + 4r para

Gas
Min - Giant Wasp Venom
Avg - Death Blade
Stg - Dark Reaver
Dead- Black Lotus

Holy (does much more than the amounts below to undead)
Min - 2d4 (4d10 undead)
Avg - 3d4 (5d10 undead)
Stg - 6d4 (8d10 undead)
Dead - 8d4 (12d10 undead)

Negative (heals undead, duh)
Min - 2d6, STR -1
Avg - 3d6, STR -1
Stg - 5d6, STR -2
Dead - 8d6, 1 Neg Level

Sonic (always med AOE)
Min - 2d4
Avg - 3d4
Stg - 5d4
Dead - 8d4

Spike
Min - 2d6
Avg - 3d6
Stg - 5d6
Dead - 25d6

Tangle (half speed on failed save for a # of rounds)
Min - 3rds
Avg - 4rds
Stg - 4rds (higher DC save than Avg)
Dead - 5rds

[Veilan]

So? The relative power of set trap is not in the skill itself.

Don't recall where I claimed it did.

Its more in the type of traps than anything else. Traps are a way for a rogue to "soften up" enemies before they can get into melee range and deal horrible pain. Seems natural that most players would make use of them.

Yes, and I think I said it should all be carefully considered, and that your opinion was being taken into account.

Those are the trap dmg we have in NWN according to BB to get you a better idea.

I'd prefer a little less condescension here.

Some of those values are indeed quite insane (25d6 for a deadly spike trap for instance), but at the same time those super traps have high DCs for setting. I wouldn't mind getting rid of the more obscene ones though.

And that's what a balancing debate is about. I fail to see the point in continuing in circles here - noone wants to deny the ability to set traps in some fashion, my concern is how to balance it (which, I think, will be done through what traps will be available), and AL's concern is how to implement setting them in a good fashion, juggling our skill needs.

What, exactly, is left to be desired?

[darrenhfx]

BB: I'm thinking that the pit trap stats you have listed refers to the dungeon variety and not the outdoorsy type. That's the only way it makes any sense to me at least.

You also mentioned:

CEP only managed about 6 to 10 traps (rolling boulders, whirling blades, etc.) over the course of several years, ALFA won't do any better.

I was looking at a collection of 5 or so traps for NWN2 on the Vault last night actually (I'll find the link later). They are similar to what was produced for NWN1; crushing wall, floor spikes, swinging axes, various rotary blades, etc.

http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NW ... ail&id=104

[witch]

I think part of the balancing is already done by game mechanics.

I could be completely wrong but both disable and set traps have become increasingly more difficult compared to NWN1

Disable no longer gives an automatic take 20, but is a roll like in PnP. again this increases risks for rogue.

Set traps from what i have seen also requires a roll. Failing the roll. the traps is set but also set off instantly.. killing the poor lowly rogue often in the process.

As an example i tried setting an average spike trap with a ranger1/rogue1 with max settraps and he got owned because he failed to make the check.

Unless i am missing something this makes traps a lot more balancing.
Are you gonna set a trap all the time if the risk is blowing up yourself on an average bad roll.

Next to that im seeing traps in nwn more as Brokenbone described it as gadgets compared to mcguyver. Keeping in mind that we are playing in a fantasy world.. such gadgets could be pretty powerful with magic being common in FR.


As to the fun factor. Id take it in the direction to see what add to the game in rp and fun terms. Disguise skill is fine but it has to have an effect in game then. having just the skill but not the means to work it for example makes it nice but near to useless without a dm being around.
Same goes for other such skills.
Having played a few years nwn1 now. I think i can count the number of rolls i have been asked to make for sensemotive, persuade, intimidate, bluff etc etc.
So getting the skills is nice.. but if we go through 30+ hours of coding i do hope we start using them as well then..


For the record acadius im not downgrading anyones work, actually i got a lot of respect for what seems to be as a hell of a job you are doing. But that does not mean i have to agree with all the choice being made in the upper regions. Balance is also based on perception, as much as the Fun factor.
And Alfa does have a history of blowing balance issues extremely out of proportion so some ground for reservation on such matters is pretty valid.

[Misty]

Disclaimer: I don't have NWN2 so if this isn't possible, ignore me.



Is it possible to roll Set Trap/Disable Trap/Craft Trap into one universal skill, thereby freeing up two skill slots for alternative use?

Then simply remove the ridiculously overpowered traps from game completely?

This makes the low DC stuff easy to use (and make if allowed down the line) and the idiotically powerful stuff isn't available.

[Brokenbone]

BB: I'm thinking that the pit trap stats you have listed refers to the dungeon variety and not the outdoorsy type. That's the only way it makes any sense to me at least.

You also mentioned:

CEP only managed about 6 to 10 traps (rolling boulders, whirling blades, etc.) over the course of several years, ALFA won't do any better.

I was looking at a collection of 5 or so traps for NWN2 on the Vault last night actually (I'll find the link later). They are similar to what was produced for NWN1; crushing wall, floor spikes, swinging axes, various rotary blades, etc.

The rules do not seem to make a distinction for where you find a trap, i.e., jungle vs. cave vs. ice field vs. worked-stone dungeon. I am sure creative DMs could use their discretion to alter time and DC depending on materials, though that'd be a bit outside the rules. Example: easier to dig a hole in soft earth than in solid stone. Useless and impossible to dig in a bog or a sand dune. Still, there's 50 to 100 example traps you can imagine many of them, anyplace. It is completely possible I'm missing some rules for "trap environments", I'm open to hear about it though.

To your other point, if someone has re-created the handful of CEP2 Traps from NWN1, for NWN2, good! They were fun in dungeons from time to time, though had to be set by builders in the toolset, triggers and placeables were more complex than the "Trap Kit" thing Bioware did. A DM couldn't place the things IG either, they were really something you could only implement when offline and tooling. I wonder how the NWN2 versions work... hopefully more dynamic, that'd be nice.

[psycho_leo]

Those are the trap dmg we have in NWN according to BB to get you a better idea.

I'd prefer a little less condescension here.

:F Just assumed it would be easier to discuss with actual numbers (unless of course these are completely different for NWN2). I for one didn't have an exact idea until BB was kind enough to provide me numbers back then, so you're reading more into what I posted than what's actually there. What prompted me to post it was you saying teh skill might be very powerful. That just goes to show you that the skill is only very powerful if you have enough money to buy teh spectacular kits (or a DM that provides) and high enough set trap ranks to actually use them.

[Veilan]

Ah, nothing for un-good then. I assumed you were implying we didn't have "a good idea", i.e. accusing of us talking out of our rear ends, heh.

Anyway, what I was referring to with the power of the skill is the buggered implementation in NWN 1, that makes it impossible for PCs to spot PC laid traps, as well as how fast you could sneak around - without cover with the "magical invisibility" sneaking mind you - and lay traps in a matter of a few rounds, basically in front of someone walking - it gets worse in combination with hips - and which sneak doesn't aim for it. Then add on top the inability of any monster AI to cope with it.

I could have formulated better though, I was more referring to the general ability, and not the skill ranks (which have little effect in NWN 1, and putting 2 points in cross-classed can pay huge dividends there, sadly).

So, there is enough that needs to be considered (that is of course true for every class). My own balancing concerns of course don't strive for total equality (which would be delusional), but to have at least a counter for an offense - discipline versus knockdown, death ward vs. death magic, good detection vs. sneak attacks. Against NWN 1 traps, there is no real counter.

Anyway, let's get back on topic - I hope I could reassure you that most of us are very much motivated to try to preserve, or even add, as much possibilities to interact with the game as possible.

[danielmn]

Out of the canon not already in...I would say that swim would be a definate need to have. I can think of only one PC I've played where I did not use the swim skill at one point or another..and universally, a PC will almost definately come to the point where the skill is needed to be used. As it is universally more useful across the boards than other skills, I would like to see swim in. I would second climb as well, for the same reasons. Not feasable are the knowledge skills due to the number of available slots...and god knows I would have loved for them to be in....no one likes a know-it-all because one skill blankets what should be many knowledge skills.