pnp rules for shorties

[Dorn]

*sighs*

/me is stunned by Creslyns concise and thorough response ( )and looks forwards to another batch of homogenised fighter and cleric classes wielding tower shields and full plate of different colours only

Once again my barbarians get a kick in the balance guts

[Swift]

Cres rocks.

Now go shoot down the weapon breakage thread too

[Rumple C]

to another batch of homogenised fighter and cleric classes wielding tower shields and full plate of different colours only

yuck.

[JspecWip]

PNP does try to reflect some aspects of Reality

Arguing for the hin in heavy armour is arguing for the exception, Hin aren't strong the neg hit to str on creation represents the fact they are 3ft. tall and weigh 80 pounds. There advantage is in agility thus you see more hin builds based on dex. This isn't power gaming it reflects the reality.

Dwarfs live in mines, toil away digging/moving rock, and are famous for smithing/armour making. Thus they mostly wear heavy armours. Thus by thier verry nature are used to all these things, plus they are a hard peole (+2 to con) This is why they don't suffer penalties for armour/enc. Plus dwarfs get screwed almost as bad as HOs, they're ugly nasty little drunks.

As HDB has said stuff is worked out in Development, this goes for PnP as well, people are being paid to write it after all. You have to remember NWN is made for all the hack and slash servers we make fun of. Only a select amount of people want to play the way we do.

As for amour, I can't fathom why its not fixed for Pnp standards in NWN, it has to be fixed for NWN2. Without the speed difference Heavy armours are overbalanced. They have no drawbacks for a melee fighter, this is crap, and has created problems in and of itself in NWN. Go try to get Full plate or even Half plate, its all nerfed and crazy expensive because its so over powerfull. Instead of making it harder to get it should be less uber.

As for the hin not balancing, or it being a pain having to walk slower in heavy armour, or not being able to run away in either case
now its harder to solo...
So what?
(Yes I do mean if you argue against balancing the speed for armour/hin that you are pissed because you wanna be a PGer and this will ruin it for you.)

[Mulu]

PNP does try to reflect some aspects of Reality

But not very well.

Arguing for the hin in heavy armour is arguing for the exception

Actually I think we're arguing for hin in general, in any armor. And not just hin, but gnomes as well. Since dwarves get their armor exception, I guess they can take the hit, though I'd rather see them get normal move rates and take a hit from armor, like everyone else.

Hin aren't strong the neg hit to str on creation represents the fact they are 3ft. tall and weigh 80 pounds. There advantage is in agility thus you see more hin builds based on dex. This isn't power gaming it reflects the reality.

It's min/maxing, but it is common and strongly encouraged by the game design.

As HDB has said stuff is worked out in Development, this goes for PnP as well, people are being paid to write it after all.

If you are going to use "the designers are always right" argument, then you just lost, since designers rebalanced NWN, after all. And they didn't include racial speeds, or any other proposed or implemented rule change in ALFA. "The designers are always right" means you change nothing.

But it's a very flawed argument anyway. After all, going back to the red box as HDB did, Gary Gygax explicitly stated that the rules were made to be changed. That you could and should develop your own home rules and play the game the way you feel it should be played.

You have to remember NWN is made for all the hack and slash servers we make fun of. Only a select amount of people want to play the way we do.

You have to remember that PnP D&D 3e and 3.5e are designed specifically for hack and slash tabletop gaming. It wasn't as true of earlier versions, but now the PH actually teaches you how to min/max....

As for amour, I can't fathom why its not fixed for Pnp standards in NWN, it has to be fixed for NWN2. Without the speed difference Heavy armours are overbalanced.

I agree on the armor issue. I like the idea of a rogue being able to outrun a fighter.

As for the hin not balancing, or it being a pain having to walk slower in heavy armour, or not being able to run away in either case
now its harder to solo...
So what?
(Yes I do mean if you argue against balancing the speed for armour/hin that you are pissed because you wanna be a PGer and this will ruin it for you.)

Child, listen. It took me over a year to reach 5th level. I don't play a hin, nor do I plan to. I pretty much exclusively play humans, as I find that there is enough variation in the human condition to allow for infinite roleplay options. This has nothing to do with pg'ing. It has to do with the unbalancing effect of short stature move rates without the concomitant ability to evade. This is a basic balancing debate, simple as that. I think it's a bad idea to implement short stature move rates because NWN has a lot more combat than PnP, that combat is done in real time, it usually is done without a DM which means you can't use creative actions to evade/avoid, and the implementation is not giving short folk any counterbalancing benefit above what they already get in the game engine. It's not even about soloing, since all of these issues are present in a group as well, and "Protect the hin!" is not the way I want to start each and every combat.

[Stormseeker]

"Protect the hin!" is not the way I want to start each and every combat.

hmm seems me and bringer just did this exact same thing a number of times. Now our pc's are dead while some of them are running around as high levels.

[Mulu]

And, a bit randomly, I found the most interesting site on heavy armor.

http://www.chronique.com/Library/Armour/armyd1.htm

How a man shall be armed for his ease when he shall fight on foot
c1450

[wvincenti]

And, a bit randomly, I found the most interesting site on heavy armor.

http://www.chronique.com/Library/Armour/armyd1.htm

How a man shall be armed for his ease when he shall fight on foot
c1450

*chuckles*

Brian knows his stuff.

I'm all for changing movement rates for the different classes of armor Light, Medium & Heavy. I'd rather not get more involved than that though in game. It takes long enough to get a Party moving without having to allow 5-10 minutes or so for a PC to get into and out of armor.

-Bill

[NickD]

I'm not opposed to the armour movement speed change - if it can be done properly. Because it can potentially effect anyone (even wizards can wear heavy armour if they really want to), it's completely a matter of choice. And as long as it effects every NPC too.

Only problem is the more fluid nature of NWN as opposed to the predefined round system of PnP. In combat, a rogue with a bow is suddenly a lot more powerful than a tanked fighter with a sword. All they have to do is hit and run hit and run hit and run and the heavily armoured fighter will never catch up with them.

It may sound like a good idea, but if it were implemented I imagine it'd be less popular than the encumbrance scripts.

[HDB]

NEW PnP ACR Recipe

acquire HCR
- find an old, codger, ALFAn PnPing for 20-30 years and be quiet.
- bump thread to a forum and break the horse into coherent bable

Tedious ACR script we have.......proficient ACR scripts we have
-Summon an ancient ALFAn and imprison him in Admin
-Get the best RPing ALFAn to tell the demon; "Ask not what ALFA can do for you, but what can you do for ALFA?!!"
-gather wrath and venom

Not tedious...........Tedious
-find two ALFAns with an opinion
-close eyes and shoot
-spam till threads loop continous

ACR outdated scripts.........ACR scripts developing :idea
-pluck HCR till all horsefeathers are removed

weigh and deliberate
-gently wrap the two ALFAns in spam and stuff in the horse.
-place the the horse over flames and turn the heat to maximum sporadically according to the demon's life force
-After two "Quakes" wait for NWN2 and add growth.

[Mayhem]

Only problem is the more fluid nature of NWN as opposed to the predefined round system of PnP. In combat, a rogue with a bow is suddenly a lot more powerful than a tanked fighter with a sword.

A mobile opponent with a ranged weapon *should* more powerful than a slow opponent without one. Simple fact of life.

The fighter will just have to either take cover, or bring a ranged weapon of his own.

***

That said, at the moment this tactic hard to pull off.

Even when you can outrun stuff, the lead you actually need to be able to stop, turn and shoot without your foe catching up is pretty close to maximum visibility range, so by the time you see it it can pretty much charge you.

Add the small size of ALFAs areas and unless you run in circles (decreasing your lead even more) you soon reach an AT.

Given that a decent archer with a bow ought to be able to shoot clear across two or three areas without trouble, ranged weapons are pretty crippled. Making some of the potential targets slower migh redress that somewhat.

[Mulu]

Even when you can outrun stuff, the lead you actually need to be able to stop, turn and shoot without your foe catching up is pretty close to maximum visibility range, so by the time you see it it can pretty much charge you.

That's not been my experience. The lead needed is about three to four steps. I guess it depends on your initiative somewhat, and at the point where you get multiple attacks with a bow that first shot is nearly instantaneous.

Which will then lead to a rule about how you can't abuse the move rate differences by playing shoot and run against armored opponents, which will create another huge debate.

[JspecWip]

This would give a bit of an advantage to light/ranged characters but IMO they get the shaft now. Thats the whole reason of puting this in is puting a draw back on heavy armour.

As for people powergaming, like you can't do it now with a bow, you can shoot off a cliff do all kinds of other stuff. Give the mobs a ranged weapon so they can switch, and since most mobs don't fight alone at least those that would be wearing armour they have back up against pging soloers.

[Dorn]

I wonder if there is any point in this debate....i'd liek to see it in. But Creslyn has said no way.

Is that an official rejection? Do we have to develop a case and submit it to Admin for consideration? whats the story? i think a lot of good ideas die in teh ass becuase they are discussed, locked at page 10 and forgotten.

[Mulu]

It's a base mod issue, it would have to be posted as a full idea in the appropriate base mod forum by a builder, I assume.