Speeds and armor

[Veilan]

It should affect both PCs and NPCs alike

Of course it should, which is part of the beauty of the tactical aspect of the proposal (still assuming BB's "no running in heavy armour", since "you are encumbered and canot run" is an easier implementation than fiddling with everything). That hobgoblin warlord won't simply crash past your tanks to charge the wizard in circles either... while your tanks charge the hobgoblin shaman and archer in circles. It would mean actual roles in a party, and give the other, vastly underpowered armour users their spots to shine. You'd suddenly appreciate the ranger for taking out the enemy archer, since you can't just waltz over him as the MBT you are, and you'd appreciate the barbarian to sprint around and flail the wizard. Right now, when you see a barbarian most people think "hope he bought heavy armour proficiency".

ALFA, and NWN, favours heavy armour massively - in all design aspects. Giving a little bit of fun, tactics and versatility should be appreciated by heavy armour users too (I certainly do, and my char doesn't use full plate infrequently... it all depends on the party and expected situation). You don't have to always wear full-plate, after all (even Aszûne didn't, despite a mithril plate likely being far more comfortable than say, the not unseen adamantine plate of ALFA 2). In fact for quite some, it might be a bit more immersive if they actually did wear it less .

It would give especially fighters the option to become the tactical leaders they are, knowing what weapon and what armour to pick when. Go on a scouting trip through the woods? That breastplate might suffice, and the dex 15 fighter might actually feel not like an idiot for having more than 12 dex. Ready for a siege defense? Don your biggest armour and shields, fellows, no retreat and no surrender. Go onto a dungeon crawl with a full party? Make your tactics to stay behind the tank you slowly move up along the narrow corridors after scouting. Only have one hard-hitting melee fighter? He could weigh his party's experience and skill, to decide whether to only put on chain mail to cover different angles of attack and breaches, or to try to set up a tactic of swinging around him as fixed point.

In short, it'd introduce relevant choice.

Right now, it's just boring. Dex 12 + full plate is a no brainer, massively overpowered compared to PnP and other NWN armour setups, has no drawbacks at all and actually seems to lead to people sitting down in taverns in it (different gripe, I know).

The beauty of the proposal is that it not only addresses glaring balancing issues, but also adds better, more tactical and immersive gameplay. I know how it hurts to become a little weaker, but we should consider the conduciveness to the overall campaign. PvP might be a bit of a consideration, but in PvE, it'd make the game a lot more interesting as well as rounded.

Cheers,

[Swift]

(still assuming BB's "no running in heavy armour", since "you are encumbered and canot run" is an easier implementation than fiddling with everything).

And suddenly have to talk to every player who wears plate that forgets to shift click to walk, rather than run, away from a fight, with the potential for permanent strikes for cheating if a player is repeatedly caught doing it?

I am sorry, but considering (cant believe I have to repeat this) ALFA players have played, and had fun, for near on 10 years without this, suddenly saying "running in full plate is now cheating, you musn't do it" simply isn't an elegant solution. Its not even a half assed solution. It is a lazy solution to a problem that is so far down the list of problems in our community that it would be hilarious were this thread not 5 pages long.

but we should consider the conduciveness to the overall campaign.

If this was something that would add anything significant to the overall campaign of ALFA, it would have been implemented years and years ago. It sits right along side of a fatigue system as something a tiny segment of players want but would add nothing to the campaign itself.

Ready for a siege defense? Don your biggest armour and shields, fellows, no retreat and no surrender. Go onto a dungeon crawl with a full party? Make your tactics to stay behind the tank you slowly move up along the narrow corridors after scouting. Only have one hard-hitting melee fighter? He could weigh his party's experience and skill, to decide whether to only put on chain mail to cover different angles of attack and breaches, or to try to set up a tactic of swinging around him as fixed point.

And what is stopping anyone who wants the fractional extra immersion weight penalties would bring from doing this right now? What is stopping players from being tactical right now? Absolutely nothing. If players are not being tactical now, forcing people in heavy armor to walk is not going to change that. If players are tactical now...what is the problem?

[Veilan]

(still assuming BB's "no running in heavy armour", since "you are encumbered and canot run" is an easier implementation than fiddling with everything).

And suddenly have to talk to every player who wears plate that forgets to shift click to walk, rather than run, away from a fight, with the potential for permanent strikes for cheating if a player is repeatedly caught doing it?

I am sorry, but considering (cant believe I have to repeat this) ALFA players have played, and had fun, for near on 10 years without this, suddenly saying "running in full plate is now cheating, you musn't do it" simply isn't an elegant solution. Its not even a half assed solution. It is a lazy solution to a problem that is so far down the list of problems in our community that it would be hilarious were this thread 5 pages long.

Get a grip. This would be a coded implementation. I've stated times and times again that policing doesn't work, and that players must be free to do what the game engine permits them.

If this was something that would add anything significant to the overall campaign of ALFA, it would have been implemented years and years ago.

Yeah, just like we had riding horses from the start! Logical fallacy.

By the way, that only a "section of the players want" is explained quite lovingly by Ithildur's point 3 .

And what is stopping anyone who wants the fractional extra immersion weight penalties would bring from doing this right now? What is stopping players from being tactical right now? Absolutely nothing. If players are not being tactical now, forcing people in heavy armor to walk is not going to change that. If players are tactical now...what is the problem?

Because right now, you're cheesing if you pretend a full plate is not the best choice for every task at hand. Apart from maybe swimming, and then only if a DM is around. Choices come from actual facts, not from fictional narration. It's "tactical" to roll up dex 12 and don a full plate, then waltz over everything you see in a running charge. In fact, if you have the proficiency, not wearing a full plate right now is stupidity - even if you're a high dex build, even if you have uncanny dodge (which is broken).

I know people hate losing their cookie cutter, but in the long run even you'd appreciate it, Swift .

[danielmn]

I think you're taking for granted your Permanent Storage...which, if I might remind you for a moment, some of us don't have. Otherwise, my own PC would have a variety of arms and armour available to him by now. However, I've had to limit and outright give up neat stuff because I simply can't haul everything useful I find around. The gripes about everyone's always in full plate can be a valid point IF everyone had a place to store more than one set of armour....

[Blindhamsterman]

The idea of brining armours more in line with pnp is a good one, and from reading this, most people seem to agree. Dan is right however that it's a lot of work, and due to it being scripting work, its likely beyond most folk that could volunteer. I'd love to see this get implemented, and would help if someone took on the task (i.e. they tell me what to do, and I'd get on with doing it).

I agree that currently heavy armour users are somewhat overpowered, and also that I see pretty much no warrior types wandering about without plate of some kind on, there are some exceptions to this, but those are often down to other classes in the mix (Iths PC, and mine for instance).

Also, the fact it isn't already in, doesn't mean it shouldn't be in, it just means we've never had the time or skills to do it, there is undoubtably interest in the concept, so saying its a waste of time, is frankly a joke. However as I already said and as Dan has said multiple times, the amount of work is pretty large, so I think it should only be done if someone other than AL volunteers to do this work (keeping him to do what he's doing)

[Veilan]

Relatively easy availability of pstorage was a building criterion set out by the demon, Rusty. I got mine after a year of playing or so.

The more strength you have, the less of an issue it is, and strength is quite favoured by the normal full plate types, with even clerics usually taking their 14.

Regardless, if storage is as unavailable, that's an entirely unrelated discussion, as it's not a desired trait.

[Veilan]

so I think it should only be done if someone other than AL volunteers to do this work (keeping him to do what he's doing)

This also seems reasonable to me. It's not high priority, but certainly would be interesting to have.

Of course, as would be riding horses - who could totally offset the "drawback" for the person investing into ride .

[Rotku]

I am sorry, but considering (cant believe I have to repeat this) ALFA players have played, and had fun, for near on 10 years without this, suddenly saying "running in full plate is now cheating, you musn't do it" simply isn't an elegant solution.

We played 6 years without Warlocks and Favoured Souls and all those things. We had fun back then. Let's remove them.

We played 4 or so years without PrCs. We had fun back then. Let's remove them.

We played 10 years without Moonshae and Western Heart Lands going live. We had fun all that time. It's a waste of effort to push them for Live now.

[Rotku]

so I think it should only be done if someone other than AL volunteers to do this work (keeping him to do what he's doing)

This also seems reasonable to me. It's not high priority, but certainly would be interesting to have.

+1. This is a key to all these "wants".

[t-ice]

Because modifying every armor item is obviously unfeasible, the question is: How difficult is it to add properties to armor types, such as decreased/increased speed, in the haks? I'm sure modifying the properties already there (AC/maxdex/ACP...) is rather simple (Though I don't know how to do it, probably wouldn't take long from anyone to learn this).

There seems to be people willing to voluenteer plenty of time and effort, but claiming not having any knowledge or skills in the regard to NWN2 mechanics and scripting. You know, it merely takes time and effort to learn

(Maybe I'll take a shot one of these days just for the heck of it, but as always the time to dedicate to this particular hobby is limited, and I'm already involved in probably more than is healthy .)

[Veilan]

I'm thinking along the lines of cheating right now, to make feasible BB's proposal, by hijacking a movement-lowering mode via script . That would further slow you when you really get encumbered though. We'll see how it goes, I'll tap someone too. A solution must be simple, no hassle, not exploitable and reliable, if we can't make that, then it's not worth the bother.

[kmj2587]

If we're looking at BB's idea of disabling running when wearing heavy armor, couldn't this all be done by checking the armor's weight category as an OnEquip event? The variable for weight category has to exist already because of the proficiency feats. From there it would just be a matter of telling the game to disable running. "Hijacking" one of the movement lowering modes comes with issues though. Stealth makes your character transparent on your screen no matter how bad at it you are and would be slightly annoying. Elves can run while search mode is on because of their racial traits. Tracking mode seems like the most viable as the only time it becomes problematic is if you have an eighth level ranger or higher who is wearing heavy armor. You could always activate both search and track, and then it's only a problem if you have an eighth level or higher elven ranger in heavy armor.

[Swift]

I am sorry, but considering (cant believe I have to repeat this) ALFA players have played, and had fun, for near on 10 years without this, suddenly saying "running in full plate is now cheating, you musn't do it" simply isn't an elegant solution.

We played 6 years without Warlocks and Favoured Souls and all those things. We had fun back then. Let's remove them.

We played 4 or so years without PrCs. We had fun back then. Let's remove them.

We played 10 years without Moonshae and Western Heart Lands going live. We had fun all that time. It's a waste of effort to push them for Live now.

Apples and oranges. Everything you mentioned there were major additions. This is one of the most trivial additions with such minuscule benefit thats been floated in recent times.

Needless to say, my fingers are crossed that any proposed solutions are shown to be unworkable botch jobs that would have more detriment than use.

[Audark]

I don't have a series of clever reasons for my feeling on this, I just don't like it.

I know PnP rules, and they work well in PnP, and if things changed I'm sure everyone would adapt to the rules here, but I see no real problem, no reason to change and very little benefit from any of this.

It rubs me the wrong way, it feels like we're discussing solving a problem that doesn't really exist to me. *shrugs* carry on, I just don't think actually implementing a solution here will make anyones game any better, and may make some peoples game worse.

[jmecha]

Being a fan of playing rogues and other light armored character types, I believe an in game mechanic that would allow my lightly armored PC to out run heavily armored PC's and NPC's would improve my game.

Just Saying