Yes, this again

[Veilan]

Whoops - I totally read "even" there.

Anyway,

the low HD hurdle is one major aspect, overall equality and fairness is, to me, the top aspect to consider. This is why Obsidian is in, but I am strongly against it for reasons we both agree on. It's a fair compromise, it just exacerbates the entry hurdle to amounts I'm personally not willing to suggest, if it's what the LA community wants, point out to them it means they close their clique even more, shrug, and grant it if they still want it. I can recognize what is a fair system in the cold hard mathematical facts, yet still don't like it.

Focussing a system on only 1-4 is also insufficient, as you can see ALFA spans more levels than that, and not only for non-LA races.

[AlmightyTDawg]

I'm not clear on your 2k grant: for all races? While this would redress the balance somewhat in favour of SUM(LA), it does rather seem like a botched attempt to just have all PCs start at the same level, no?

It would be on top of the SUM(LA) system. Thus, normals could start between 0 - 2000xp (meaning 1000 to 2nd up to 1000 to 3rd), LA+1 could start between 1000 - 3000xp (meaning 2000 to 2nd up to just hitting 2nd), and LA+2 could start between 3000 - 5000xp (meaning 3000 to 2nd up to 1000 to 2nd).

You maintain both the flavor and abilities of races, drow still can only have 1000 to 2nd, hardcore players can choose to play down at no bonus like they want to, and most of the people who want out of 1-HD completely can do so.

Basically, it's prioritizing canon abilities over the, as Mik has noted, inappropriately named "level one pillar."

[Rusty]

Righto. Well then there's a secondary issue of dealing with our 'one hit dice pillar'... as well as the outstanding concerns about power levels and equality of treatment. As I argued earlier, it's simply not convincing that LR makes LA races unplayably canon-free; it's not as if Faerun's general sex-equality is being extended to Lolthian houses, or the like. The fundamental characteristics remain, and I can't envisage more than a few, heavily circumscribed, conditions in which any specific RP would differ. All that argument does is identify those who confuse flavour and power - and power, of course, has its price.

[AlmightyTDawg]

Agreed on the hit dice pillar idea - and the idea of distinctions and playability. Where someone could or would draw the line (+500-1000 xp, for example) is clearly a matter for debate and compromise. I'm only figuring that it might seem preferable to go that route than a move to the lesser races system (basically banning LA altogether). I figure yes, LA-races have perks, and there should be a "penalty" for that consistent with the canon system - and the ECL XP adjustment was a pretty cute way to do it even if it fostered some loose talk.

On the flavor v. power thing, I have a hard time getting past the idea that much of canon, which bases the reputation of those races on significant greater-than-normal abilities, becomes more than merely fudged - it becomes dangerously compromised. Even scaled down, there's still a "relative" relation - drow should be more magic resistant than dwarves, meaning their save v. spells must be greater than +2 even if reduced to that. Plus you have things which seem irreducible, like the spells/day and such things. And ultimately you're not just changing character templates, you're editing monsters out of the SRD monster compendium as well. Ones that were there long before these races became playable.

If the community goes LR, though, it works technically. I would avoid it if possible though.

[Veilan]

Surely, that slight change of consideration would require less mental acrobatics than accomodating warlocks in FR canon.

[Rusty]

Right, it's not nearly as difficult an adjustment as that accompanying scores of other WotC or house tweaks. In terms of MM danger levels, you can use exactly the same ECL LA race for your encounter with or without LR - you just up the class levels, which gives them the same/more/less (delete according to personal choice) power...

Really, the difficulty with a SUM(LA)+Optional XP is that not only are we still fudging the basic balance issue, but in attempting to ameliorate an exacerbated low HD hurdle, we fudge starting XP. Starting with >1HD remains pretty divisive, and, moreover, probably works out as a more significant change to the game world than LR would.

[AlmightyTDawg]

Surely, that slight change of consideration would require less mental acrobatics than accomodating warlocks in FR canon.

Meh. Ever since there was spelljamming and similar cross-plane or cross-world pollenization in other formats, I guess nothing's really a sacred cow on that front. I think warlocks in FR are stupid, but I also figure Mystra will just respond with Spellfire 1.5 or 2.0 to reestablish its coolness.

I actually think something that broad and population-statistics defining is more serious for canon purposes. There's two sides to the coin - you can argue to players "well you don't want the power just to PG do you?" but it's kind of a false premise. Whether or not individuals would play drow in the Lesser Race format doesn't really answer whether the changes themselves are distasteful. Take me, for example, who dislikes LA-races on principle - I also think a nerf down to near-normal is to be avoided at all costs.

I think at some level, flavor v. power isn't a fair characterization - the level of the ability defines the nature of the race; now if you say that such races shouldn't be in PC hands, well years ago I might have agreed. But WotC has gotten a lot of mileage out of having the stones to not go that route, and the cat is out of the bag.

So two questions in my mind would need to be answered:

1) Is it preferable to introduce lesser races to having drow take 3k to reach level 2, and duergars 2k? (straight SUM(LA) system)
2) Is it preferable to introduce lesser races to having the above with the option to gain some amount of XP to an unspecified ceiling (1000, 1500, 2000), thus allowing normals to bypass level 1 at player's option and LA-races to have an adjusted window? (adjusted SUM(LA) system)

[Rusty]

There's probably a (3) as well: optional XP only for non-LA.

[Veilan]

I think we're really at the end of the dead alley with the power vs. flavour now.

Arguing canon hinges on those races being "significantly more powerful" acknowledges that they are, but, I disagree with the baseline of argumentation.

Canon "scariness" of a race does not depend on their individual statistics; goblins aren't a menace because of their awesome size modifiers (hrhr). Alignment and canon is a far better determination of how threatening a race is. Noone's going to be afraid of dwarves (imho the most powerful non-LA race) precisely because they're lawful good and mostly isolationist. Write canon about dwarven crusades threatening human cities, and the story would be different. Give all those drow you consider now scary +2 character levels, and according to your own judgment that LA is less powerful (which I disagree with), they would be more scary. So to present a consistent argument, you would have to say canon is now invalidated because the threat of Drow is not diminished, but in fact increased.

Again, I don't think so - I think arguing against the lesser races option because of "canon threat" is the very last straw and rather flimsy (especially considering that lesser races is a canon option). Joe Commoner-Pitchfork is not afraid of "dem blacken elfs dere have dem magickar resistance more powerful than that of elves and dwarves, that woll" but because they sacrifice children, noone's safe, are ruthless and unpredictably cruel. He's afraid of them because their base alignment is CE. Not because they have LA+2.

[AlmightyTDawg]

I think we're really at the end of the dead alley with the power vs. flavour now.

I agree.

I disagree about the rest. What's flimsy to you is rock solid to me. Instead I see the concern about "level one pillars" as far more bendable.

And I don't think either of us are going to convince the other. At this point it's a community decision. I honestly think this decision is going to have a lot of the same undertones as the planetouched, and I worry about the overall direction we're choosing.

But I don't play, so what does my opinion matter anyway? *trundles off*

[fluffmonster]

I tried not so long ago to push against the "1HD pillar". Even starting with 0-1000 xp, a more conservative version of starting xp than was brainstormed here, was pretty much rejected. Maybe the issue could be raised again with a different frame, but it will be hard to overcome the notion of XP giveaway or the 'slippery slope' argument (i.e., why not start at 3hd or 4 etc.).

[Inaubryn]

You guys are gonna argue this up to page 10, ain't ya? T-Dawg, the whole reason I proposed this in the first place is the hurdle of staying at level one for 3000, 6000, and 10000 experience points. Simply put, in ALFA, that ain't gonna be no fun for nobody.


So, let me say this again. We got OAS2 Beta up, TSF Beta will be coming up shortly, and I'll hopefully have an Underdark server in beta shortly thereafter. These things can be tested real world. We can start off one lA player at 0, one at half way to second alongside non-LA players, and see what happens.


Ultimately, this is about increased survivability for LA races. In ALFA with NWN1, everybody started at 0, and everybody hit second level at 1000, third at 3000, fourth at 6000, and so on. Then we introduced the xp reducttion via the DM wand. And, this accounted for ECL. But, by that time, the LA races were entrenched and playing.

This time around, it's not gonna be the same. With 2nd level not comin' until 3000xp, 6000xp, and 10000xp... survivability is not in question, it's in doubt.

We can prevent this and keep these races fun, yet challenging, to play. That's all I'm tryin' to do here. I honestly could care less about what Algebraic formulas are used to calculate some impertinent result. I'm not for taking away some of what makes these races appealing to many, or making them waste feats to earn it back. I don't care about any argument that doesn't have to do with keeping things in ALFA fun. Granted, we must keep them balanced... but giving these races an xp boost then slowing their progression over time, does that. It certainly doesn't unbalance things.

That being said, let's playtest this and whatever else and see what works better for us in-game. We killed off planetouched by a with a bunch of senseless, get you nowhere arguments, and allowed a poll to determine their fate before anybody saw their in-game affect and before anybody consdered the fun factor. It came down to, "I don't like 'em, so I don't want 'em."

Let's try not to do that again. That's some of the silliest, unfounded decision makin' there is. As a wise person once told me, "You never know what you like or what works for you until you've tried it." Can we at least try it before we kill it slowly with words and a poll?

[Rusty]

There is no way that 'testing' will benefit this discussion, any more than 'testing' would have produced the slightest difference to the various planetouched discussions. It is patent that a wholly front-loaded LA XP penalty is going to be an extraordinary burden for players; no testing is needed to establish that. The debate, rather, is a philosophical one about the location of the LA XP penalty, and the competing goals of playability, canon, and balance.

[Mikayla]

We do not have a level 1 pillar. Its not in there. We have started all PCs at level for ALFA in NWN1, but that is not the same as having a level 1 pillar. We do have a cultural bias towards it, if you will, but it is not "forbidden."

That said, for the reasons so well stated by ATD (thank you 'dawg) I see the SUM(LA) method as the best choice. I would love to expand upon by that, but I am (and have been) sick as a dog (which is why I have not been posting). I just do not have the energy. Anyway, ATD has pretty much hit the nail on the head with his arguments. I may post more when I get better.

[AlmightyTDawg]

You guys are gonna argue this up to page 10, ain't ya? T-Dawg, the whole reason I proposed this in the first place is the hurdle of staying at level one for 3000, 6000, and 10000 experience points. Simply put, in ALFA, that ain't gonna be no fun for nobody.

I know Inaub - but I think what this thread has been all about is determining what the "problem" is. I spent most of it arguing against the idea that LA race "power" justified something worse than what we did in ALFA1; to me, I think you needed to justify a problem before we went anywhere from that, particularly given the problems that existed even in that method. I really think anything worse than SUM(LA) should be right out.

But Rusty has really kind of brought it about face - here the idea now is that no one should be spending more than 1000xp (maybe 1500xp) at level 1 - because it's such a pain in the balls in general, and a real barrier to entry to folks new to ALFA. Now we're having a very different sort of discussion.

As for the "level one pillar" (I keep using quotes for Mik's benefit), I want to go ahead and hear what the deal is. With respect to Fluff's "slippery slope" problem, I think the goal should be to keep it close enough to level 1 that even CR 1/4 - 1/2 content is still viable in the game world, plus at level 2 you're still incredibly fragile, so there's no huge competitive imbalance nor immediate comfort. Further, it covers some of the "just make content" business, allowing us to keep LA-races at full canon-fidelity while giving them a notable starting penalty (i.e., NOT being level 2) and keeping the canon XP system pretty closely matched. Even beyond that, by making it optional, folks who want to say they're "hardcore" can do so and it becomes as much about preference - if you like level one at full impact, be our guest.

I think SUM(LA), SUM(LA) plus XP, and Lesser Races comes down to where people want to strike the balance. Alara and Rusty have more or less argued the canon impact on Lesser Races is overstated - with all due respect, based on the way I conceptualize the game world I can't ever really agree. Rusty has argued that SUM(LA) straight up is still too painful for LA+2. So each of these two options is hostile in some way to LA-races - one by virtue of nerfing the power for flavor (which is philosophy more than hostility), the other by forcing LA races to spend more time at level 1. SUM(LA) plus XP, depending on what that XP is, strikes a middleground (salvages canon power/template while having a gentle 1st level curve) but bumps up against what's better called the "level one bias."

To each their own. I'd take SUM(LA) + (1000 to 2000). I see getting normals out of level 1 as a bigger benefit than anything else discussed in this thread to date, so it's an eagle and a hummingbird with one stone.