Meeting Minutes - 2007/02/09

[Veilan]

[23:00] <Cipher|01> let's bring this meeting to order
[23:00] <Blackwill|006> here here
[23:01] <Cipher|01> ok first thing I'd like to talk about is the ABR
[23:02] <Cipher|01> we had a discussion at our first meeting about naming conventions
[23:02] <Cipher|01> have any of you builders reviewed the guidelines written up in the wiki?
[23:03] <Halrin|014> I have :/
[23:03] <Halrin|014> after sending in a whole lot of wrong creatures anyways
[23:03] <Blackwill|006> I have, back when I did some placeable work
[23:03] <Cipher|01> the main thrust of that discussion was to limit meta
[23:04] <Cipher|01> it was what the majority preferred so out of that discussion I revised the guidelines
[23:04] <Halrin|014> which i also agree to in principle, but ease of use by DMs needs to be considered as well
[23:04] <Cipher|01> the issue is this
[23:04] <Halrin|014> are we aware if obsideon will be changing what is seen in the DM client as to creature names?
[23:05] <Halrin|014> sorry continue
[23:05] <Cipher|01> by putting meta information (creature names like Chieftan, Leader, Mage, etc) in {}, it makes it difficult to distinguish in the DM client
[23:06] <spdrjns> I can't see the guidelines in the wiki anymore for some reason. ;I
[23:06] <spdrjns> Need to harass Hialmar.
[23:06] <Rusty> DM status
[23:06] Leareth|014 puts up a hand
[23:06] <Cipher|01> however, as halrin indicated, builders have already asked for the {} contents to be revealed in the DM client, though it's not clear if and when it would be implemented
[23:07] <spdrjns> Eh, we only want DMs bein' able to help with the ABR stuff? ;I
[23:07] Fionn [Fionn@d33488ec.aeef0b39.com.hmsk] has joined #alfatech
[23:07] <Rusty> No, that's prolly why yo ucan't see it.
[23:07] <spdrjns> Think maybe others should be able to read that as well.
[23:07] <Rusty> I agree.
[23:07] <Rusty> But if you can't see it now i'ts prolly cause you'r eno longer a DM.
[23:07] <Rusty> So that needs fixing.
[23:08] <Halrin|014> back on point, is there an 'acceptable' amounjt of meta that can be in a visable name, or are we 100% cutting out meta so all you can ever see is 'drow' or 'moon elf'
[23:09] <spdrjns> I think the Chieftain/Leader/Mage et cetera isn't too meta...
[23:09] <spdrjns> You might be able to replace it with somethin' like "Battle-scarred" or "Hulking" or somethin' instead for the nastier sorts.
[23:09] <Halrin|014> I'm of the opinion that for creatures with class levels (like all the elves and humans I made) its not that big a deal to see 'human fighter'
[23:09] <Halrin|014> and it would help DMs immensely if this isnt solved by obsideon
[23:09] <Leareth|014> Agreed. Also given we don't know if the other tags can show it might be best to leave it
[23:10] <Leareth|014> also I'd like to put out without the floating names tags aren't as redably avalible
[23:10] <Halrin|014> its not like in nwn1 where you pressed tab and the name appears
[23:10] <Halrin|014> the name only appears if you scroll your cursor over them
[23:10] <spdrjns> Oh yea, that's right. :F
[23:11] <Leareth|014> and if you've got that much time, visual inspection might reviel thier class
[23:11] <Cipher|01> which everyone does
[23:11] <Cipher|01> mouse over I mean
[23:11] <Leareth|014> true but in a fight it's not that easy
[23:12] <Halrin|014> so, id lean to the side DMs ease of use here, 'fight' 'cleric' etc is necessary for DMs to spawn the right thing, and doesnt give away too much
[23:12] <Leareth|014> if your standing there watching your oponents your pc might very well beable to pick out thier "job"
[23:12] <Halrin|014> I just don't think, as we are now, that DMs can realistically be expected to spawn anything
[23:12] <Halrin|014> at least not from lists like humans or elves
[23:12] <Leareth|014> I think it's far more important we hide power then class
[23:12] <Halrin|014> where there'd be 20 wood elves just listed as 'wood elf' and their CR
[23:12] <Cipher|01> that's true but for that sort of thing, we were actually planning to use an OnExamine event to SetDescription()
[23:12] <Cipher|01> based on PC stats
[23:13] <Cipher|01> besides controlling meta
[23:13] <Cipher|01> this helps scouts really bring value to a party
[23:13] <Halrin|014> well that is interesting
[23:13] <Leareth|014> hrmph but for a DM that is a chalenge
[23:13] <Halrin|014> but, what adresses the problems a DM will have simply spawning things
[23:13] <Halrin|014> if we dont adjust the names
[23:14] <Leareth|014> I know in NC... trying to get a female comonor can take some serious work
[23:14] <Leareth|014> since there are about 20 with no distinction
[23:14] <Halrin|014> spawning creatures should be easy as 1,2,3 not a trial and error thing
[23:14] <Leareth|014> exactly
[23:14] <Cipher|01> technically, I'm not sure it's all there yet - OE promised but didn't deliver out of the gates. I haven't followed up on the issue but I don't expect to see any fixes for modding purposes until 1.06 anyway.
[23:14] <Halrin|014> *nods*
[23:14] <Halrin|014> well I have no problem building to specs as is
[23:15] <Leareth|014> at this rate we don't know if it's ever going to happen
[23:15] <Cipher|01> it can be cumbersome for a DM I agree
[23:15] <Halrin|014> but i'd like it to be strongly considered that if this isnt fixed, by the time we start wanting to go live, something will need to be done
[23:15] <Cipher|01> but they can spawn critters in an OOC room and jump them into combat
[23:15] <Leareth|014> true but that's hard to do on the fly
[23:15] <Halrin|014> i think thats far too unwieldly sipher to be honest
[23:15] <Leareth|014> I've had to spawn things /fast/ before
[23:15] <Cipher|01> encounters will require planning thoug
[23:15] <Leareth|014> exactly
[23:15] <Cipher|01> yeah I agree
[23:16] <Cipher|01> Halrin
[23:16] <Leareth|014> besides... it doesn't eliminate the use of scouts
[23:16] <Leareth|014> if we keep those tags
[23:16] <Halrin|014> ok so then...
[23:17] <Halrin|014> build to standards as is, with a mind to revisit the topic later?
[23:17] <Halrin|014> its easy to 'add' class names into the characters visable names
[23:17] <Cipher|01> we can do that. perhaps the issue can be facilitated with plugins?
[23:17] <Leareth|014> which standards
[23:17] <Cipher|01> Fionn
[23:17] <Halrin|014> creature naming guidelines..
[23:17] <Cipher|01> you around?
[23:17] <Cipher|01> Drat.
[23:18] <spdrjns> His hair is cloggin' his ears.
[23:18] <spdrjns> Sorry.
[23:18] <Cipher|01> Do you have a strong opinion on this issue one way or the other spider? Do you intend to DM?
[23:18] <Leareth|014> heh spider
[23:18] <Halrin|014> bugger.. afk for a few, i'll rework my creatures to specs, but i do want this kept in peopls minds
[23:19] <Cipher|01> no problem there halrin
[23:19] <Halrin|014> back ASAP
[23:19] Halrin|014 is now known as Halrin|014|AFK
[23:19] <Cipher|01> if we don't get what we need to ease game management for DMs, we'll address it
[23:19] <spdrjns> Hmm...
[23:19] <spdrjns> Yes, I intend to DM.
[23:20] <spdrjns> Unless the {} can be seen from DM client...
[23:20] <HEEGZ> IMO, I'd rather risk player meta then make spawning hard(er) for DMs.
[23:20] <spdrjns> Those names are necessary I'd say.
[23:20] <Cipher|01> It doesn't atm spider.
[23:20] <Cipher|01> It has been requested on the NWN2 forums by builders tho.
[23:20] <spdrjns> You might spawn a couple shamans and lose them in the masses of other goblins.
[23:20] <Rusty> ID without power; CR tells you power.
[23:20] <spdrjns> And wish to posseserize them.
[23:20] <Leareth|014> oh god... that would be a mess also
[23:20] <Leareth|014> spawn something more powerful then loose track of it >.<
[23:21] <Cipher|01> CR is available in the DM client
[23:21] <Leareth|014> true but how easy is it to examine each one?
[23:21] <spdrjns> Some beasties may have the CR though.
[23:21] <spdrjns> Err, same.
[23:21] <Cipher|01> so proper encounters can still be constructed
[23:21] <Leareth|014> on the beast?
[23:21] <Leareth|014> when you mouse over or no? I haven't noticed
[23:21] <Cipher|01> no it shows up in the name right on the DM creator
[23:21] <Cipher|01> tool
[23:22] <Leareth|014> true but after you spawn it
[23:22] <Cipher|01> no the CR doesn't appear in the name of the critter (unless we did that, heavn forbid)
[23:22] <Leareth|014> that's what I'm talking about.....
[23:22] <Cipher|01> it pulls it from creature stats
[23:22] <Cipher|01> and displays it on the dm creator tool for DMs only
[23:22] <Cipher|01> prespawn
[23:23] <Cipher|01> right in the palette basically
[23:23] <Leareth|014> true again that takes a lot of preperation
[23:23] <Cipher|01> lacking more details really becomes a problem when a DM wants to spawn something specific
[23:23] <Cipher|01> not CR based
[23:23] <Cipher|01> or not necessarily CR based
[23:24] <Leareth|014> agreed.. like gender
[23:24] <Cipher|01> right
[23:24] <Cipher|01> we've got gender noted in {} as well
[23:24] <Leareth|014> Halrin's creatures are set up so you know though
[23:24] <Leareth|014> with out being labeled
[23:24] <Cipher|01> but it won't matter unless OE dicieds to add that to the DM client
[23:25] <Rusty> Surely a creature's sex can be included in the name
[23:25] <Rusty> No need to use {}
[23:25] <Rusty> If we don't know it will work.
[23:25] <Leareth|014> given a choice I rather not depend on that change happening
[23:25] <Rusty> "Luskan Woman" is no worse than "Luskanite {Female}"
[23:25] <spdrjns> The Luskans.
[23:25] <spdrjns> Sorry...
[23:25] <Leareth|014> heh
[23:25] <spdrjns> So, yea, how certain are we that that change will ever happen?
[23:26] <Cipher|01> Gender is something players can tell visually in game so yeah, we could probably just add it to the name
[23:26] <Leareth|014> no
[23:26] <Cipher|01> to help DMs
[23:26] <Leareth|014> I would truely love that
[23:26] <Cipher|01> how certain? unfortunately I have no way of judging that
[23:27] <Cipher|01> how responsive has OE been to forum requests?
[23:27] <Leareth|014> given a choice I rather err on the side of having meta info and having to correct then having to guess blindly on spawns
[23:27] <spdrjns> Well, I'd guess they're watching them for the DM client...
[23:27] <spdrjns> Since they'll be improving that much.
[23:27] <Cipher|01> it's on a sticky of things builders want but I didn't see any specific acknolewedgements in that thread
[23:27] <spdrjns> Dunno if they'll snag that particular one though. ;p
[23:28] Daeftan [Daeftan@a87e5162.hsd1.ca.5aa6454b.net.hmsk] has joined #alfatech
[23:28] <Cipher|01> seems like it should be a fairly trivial adjustment
[23:28] <Cipher|01> but its out of our hands
[23:28] <Leareth|014> well we also don't know how the system works so it may not be
[23:29] <Leareth|014> regardless unless we hear if it is or isn't I don't think we can plan for it
[23:29] <Daeftan> sorry for being late... meetings... grrr
[23:30] <Cipher|01> so what is everyone in favor of then? exposing gender and possibly meta info like roles in the names or riding the assumption it'll get added to the DM client before we get to live?
[23:30] <spdrjns> Unforgivable, get out.
[23:30] spdrjns shoves Daeftan toward the porthole
[23:30] <Daeftan> lol
[23:30] <Leareth|014> I'd rather expose meta
[23:30] <Rusty> A creature's sex ought to be added, for sure.
[23:30] <Rusty> As there's no need to conceal it.
[23:30] <spdrjns> It'd be nice to hide, but, I think DMs can make use of it as well as PCs...
[23:30] <Rusty> The other data is simply a question of odds.
[23:31] <Cipher|01> what about roles? things like chieftan, leader, scout, etc.
[23:31] <spdrjns> And without being able to Tab and see all the creature names...
[23:31] <spdrjns> Like in NWN.
[23:31] <spdrjns> I think it's okay.
[23:31] <Leareth|014> I don't think we need those titles
[23:31] <Rusty> Well instead of scout
[23:31] <Rusty> We could use "Lightly Armoured Orc" or somesuch
[23:31] <spdrjns> There are no female creature models anywhat. ;p
[23:31] <Rusty> so it's less game-mechanic
[23:31] <spdrjns> Except werewolves.
[23:31] <spdrjns> For the yiff.
[23:31] <Rusty> and more RP-based
[23:31] <Rusty> but still gives DMs all the info they need
[23:32] <Cipher|01> while a nice descriptor, Lightly Armoured doesn't convey enough to a DM does it?
[23:32] <Rusty> Why not?
[23:32] <Leareth|014> not really since that could be a rogue, bard, ranger
[23:32] <Rusty> If you know your mod... you know what that means?
[23:32] <Leareth|014> see this is for everyone
[23:32] <Rusty> No it couldn't. You name the creatures to refleect what they are
[23:33] <Rusty> Without being so crass as to use class names/mechanics rolls.
[23:33] <Rusty> And why is that a problem? ABR can be done exactly so.
[23:33] <Leareth|014> for me lightly armored isn't enough
[23:33] <Rusty> How can it /not/ be enough?
[23:33] <Leareth|014> as I said for me that means about 4 classes
[23:33] <Leareth|014> for an orc that's fine
[23:33] <Cipher|01> well in theory, if you know your mod well enough, you might know that the 3rd "drow" in the list was a cleric. newb DMs will choke though.
[23:34] <spdrjns> Well, lightly armored can be helpful./
[23:34] <spdrjns> For when to use Power Attack, for example.
[23:34] <Leareth|014> yeah there is that
[23:34] <Leareth|014> I rather then know class then armor amount
[23:34] <Leareth|014> they*
[23:35] <HEEGZ> afk
[23:35] <Cipher|01> class and gender seem so logical to add to the DM client frankly
[23:35] <Rusty> But you can /see/ armour
[23:35] <Rusty> You can't /see/ class
[23:36] <Rusty> Armour is descriptive, class is a game mechanic
[23:36] <Cipher|01> it'd be somewhat stunning if they didn't add that as they begin focusing on improvements
[23:36] <Rusty> Description is a less-mechanistic way of getting the same results.
[23:36] <Cipher|01> here's another thought
[23:36] <Leareth|014> true and they can see armor with out the descriptor
[23:36] <Rusty> Either way, it's not a huge issue.
[23:36] <Cipher|01> what about a DM gui
[23:36] <Leareth|014> what about a gui?
[23:36] <Cipher|01> has anyone played with those? can we create an interface for DMs that has all the info we want?
[23:36] <spdrjns> I saw the DMFI one...
[23:36] <spdrjns> That's about it.
[23:36] <spdrjns> ;p
[23:36] <Leareth|014> I thought that was mostly visual though
[23:37] <spdrjns> Yea.
[23:37] <spdrjns> Well, it also has the language thing built in or whatever...
[23:37] <spdrjns> Dunno if that's part of the GUI? ;I
[23:37] <spdrjns> Chat types?
[23:37] <Leareth|014> that's built in
[23:38] <Leareth|014> to my knowledge GUI is only the visual aspect. You can't change the engine with out adding scripts to run
[23:38] <Cipher|01> if we can use GUIs to extend the game panels, then it could work. if gui's can only rearrange or restyle the panels, it won't solve the problem.
[23:39] <Cipher|01> if it takes a little scripting, that's not a problem
[23:39] <Leareth|014> how much it'll take depends on exactly what you want
[23:39] <Blackwill|006> well, the question is, can we add scripts to make a custom GIU which allows a good DM interface?
[23:39] <Leareth|014> of course....... that's the catch
[23:39] <Cipher|01> that's exactly the question
[23:39] <Leareth|014> hold on...
[23:40] Blackwill|006 holds
[23:40] <spdrjns> Well, we don't wanna do work that they're just going to do for us when they fix up the DM client some more.
[23:40] <Cipher|01> tell me you have a NWN GUIs for Dummies book right there with you Lea
[23:40] <Leareth|014> sadly no but I'm nosing around
[23:40] <Cipher|01> hehe ok.
[23:40] <Cipher|01> it's an open question then.
[23:41] <Cipher|01> spider
[23:41] <Cipher|01> I'd rather create a gui than have to keep renaming blueprints
[23:41] <Cipher|01> we've got around 600 of them at this point
[23:41] <spdrjns> Well, if tech team is up for it, on top of all the other shat that needs doin'. ;p
[23:42] <Rusty> I'd recommend planning for the worst-case scenario.
[23:42] <Rusty> That way, if we get the extra we want, we are still fully operational.
[23:42] <Cipher|01> a fair point. let's say it depends on the size of the effort
[23:42] <Rusty> And if we later /want/ to edit we can, but we do not have to in order to make content fully usable.
[23:43] <Cipher|01> was there any closure to the class issue you two were discussing, lea/rusty?
[23:43] <Leareth|014> heh that's a preference thing
[23:43] <Rusty> We agreed I was brilliant and right about all things.
[23:43] <Cipher|01> it is, but it's at the heart of this question. are we going to hide this info b/c players shouldn't see it or is easing the task for DMs a higher priority?
[23:44] <Rusty> We should plan on the basis that Obsidian will not improve the product in the way we want them to
[23:44] <Rusty> In which case we prolly need to be as explicit as possible in names to aid DMs.
[23:44] <Leareth|014> bah *punts Rusty*
[23:44] <Cipher|01> lol rusty. I can devoice you and your brilliance in this little cess pool of mine.
[23:44] <Leareth|014>
[23:45] <Rusty> That's much better than the alternative; no info in names and relying on OE.
[23:45] <spdrjns> Oh, err...
[23:45] <spdrjns> What server number is TSV? ;p
[23:45] spdrjns scratches head.
[23:45] <Rusty> It was cut.
[23:45] spdrjns is now known as spdrjns|TSV
[23:45] spdrjns|TSV coughs.
[23:45] <Leareth|014> hmmmmmm
[23:45] <Leareth|014> it apears we can have a gui fire a script
[23:46] <Veilan> spdr, WH is 11
[23:46] <spdrjns|TSV> >:|
[23:46] <spdrjns|TSV> It's not WH.
[23:46] <spdrjns|TSV> Don't CALL IT THAT!11
[23:46] <Veilan> yes
[23:46] <HEEGZ> Easing the tasks for DMs is a higher priority, obviously.
[23:46] <Veilan> it got changed later to TSV
[23:46] <Veilan> which still is 11
[23:46] Halrin|014|AFK is now known as Halrin|014
[23:46] spdrjns|TSV is now known as spdrjns|011
[23:46] <Halrin|014> ok back
[23:46] <Cipher|01> ok so if a gui is a go, issue is moot - we need to investigate this a bit more. short of a solution we can provide, DMs take priority. Meta and the rest of the kitchen sink go in creature names.
[23:47] <spdrjns|011> Stinkin' numberos...
[23:47] <Halrin|014> so big changes since i was gone then
[23:47] <Cipher|01> well let's take a vote
[23:47] <Halrin|014> a moment?
[23:47] <Cipher|01> (read the logs or scroll up hal if you want to catch up)
[23:47] <Cipher|01> shoot
[23:47] <Halrin|014> by kitchen sink you mean what, class, gender?
[23:47] <Halrin|014> thats all i saw
[23:48] <Halrin|014> what else meta wise would we be adding to the names
[23:48] <Leareth|014> *nods*
[23:48] <Cipher|01> primarily class (or role) and gender, but anything to help differentiate blueprints
[23:48] <Cipher|01> we can talk about what we want too
[23:48] <Cipher|01> that would be wise
[23:49] <Cipher|01> rusty had some good suggestions
[23:49] <Cipher|01> but nothing meta
[23:49] <Halrin|014> k so race,class,gender {CR,Level} etc, whats now in the { }
[23:49] <spdrjns|011> Well...
[23:49] <spdrjns|011> Doesn't need to be so clear I'd say.
[23:50] <spdrjns|011> Goblin Fighter Male is kinda bleh ;p
[23:50] <spdrjns|011> Goblin skirmisher for an axe tosser or slinger
[23:50] <Halrin|014> i just dont want to haveto redo the names on my creatures again, tedious stuff
[23:50] <Leareth|014> stuff like that
[23:50] <Halrin|014> mine are all elves and humans
[23:50] <Leareth|014> but hor human's and elves having all three would make sense
[23:50] <Leareth|014> orcs... not so much
[23:50] <Halrin|014> right
[23:50] <Cipher|01> I agree spider, but when you are DMing and you are looking for a goblin shaman to toss into a fray...how are you going to find it?
[23:50] <Halrin|014> but i wont be building orcs and this is all about my needs
[23:51] <Leareth|014> you take the goblin shamen
[23:51] <Leareth|014> he's saying group things a bit by type.
[23:51] <Leareth|014> a caster would be a shamen for goblins
[23:51] <Cipher|01> I hate meta in names but I do understand the DM issue
[23:51] <spdrjns|011> Goblin shaman is fine...
[23:51] <Halrin|014> which makes sense in humanoid tribes where some combatants wouldnt have class levels to begin with
[23:51] <Leareth|014> yeah I know Cipher but for use it's nescary
[23:51] <spdrjns|011> Doesn't need to read the exact class I'd say...
[23:52] <HEEGZ> were we voting or going to next issue?
[23:52] <spdrjns|011> Just a general idea.
[23:52] <Cipher|01> unfortunately that's another problem with the DM client. we can't classify into buckets. we only get ONE category per blueprint
[23:52] <Cipher|01> sooooooo
[23:52] <Cipher|01> maybe we can get around the class issue but having multiple racial classifications
[23:52] <Cipher|01> like Goblin Figher, Goblin Caster, etc?
[23:53] <Leareth|014> let's vote and work out the naming exactly
[23:53] <Leareth|014> later
[23:53] <Leareth|014> *nods*
[23:53] <Rusty> best to draw up some examples in t'forum for those i think
[23:53] <Halrin|014> just a question then cipher
[23:53] <Rusty> so we can see concepts side by side
[23:53] <Halrin|014> should we not be using teh humanoid category at all then?
[23:53] <spdrjns|011> Yea, get the general idea across in as short a descriptive as possible.
[23:53] <spdrjns|011> Without tellin' 'em everything.
[23:53] <Halrin|014> if we only get one category, why nto have a wood elf category, a human category
[23:53] <Halrin|014> not buried under humanois
[23:54] <Leareth|014> agreed
[23:54] <Cipher|01> more like Human Fighter, Human Wizard rather than all in Humanoid
[23:54] <Cipher|01> we could even break it down by gender...
[23:54] <Cipher|01> hmmm
[23:54] <Halrin|014> *shrugs* we could get that precise to avoid meta if we really wanted to
[23:54] <Halrin|014> id lean towards just race categories
[23:54] <Halrin|014> and class in the names
[23:54] <Cipher|01> the toolset gives us this ability
[23:54] <Cipher|01> sooooooo
[23:55] <Cipher|01> it's quite trivial
[23:55] <Halrin|014> bottom line, i dont see class in a name as such unacceptable meta as to ruin anyones game
[23:55] <Halrin|014> so it doesnt matter how we limit it in my eyes
[23:55] <Leareth|014> can we vote on the meta info first?
[23:55] <Cipher|01> I think lea wants to vote. What do you think?
[23:56] <Cipher|01> ok let me ask the question agaon then
[23:56] <Halrin|014> *shrugs* if we need to vote to make things official
[23:56] <Halrin|014> cant just come to some consensus?
[23:56] <Leareth|014> I think we have but to make sure
[23:56] <Halrin|014> kk
[23:57] <Halrin|014> well I vote for class, race and gender being available in a creatures name at builders discretion
[23:57] <Cipher|01> all in favor of meta taking precedence say aye
[23:57] <Leareth|014> aye
[23:57] <Halrin|014> aye
[23:57] <HEEGZ> aye
[23:57] <spdrjns|011> Hrmm. ;I
[23:57] <Cipher|01> er....that's meta OUT of the names folks
[23:57] <Leareth|014> just vote spider
[23:57] <Halrin|014>
[23:57] <HEEGZ> what?
[23:57] <HEEGZ> bleh
[23:57] <spdrjns|011> lolol ;I
[23:57] <Leareth|014> wha?
[23:58] <Rusty> laal
[23:58] <Leareth|014> sorry to me that sounded like in?
[23:58] <Cipher|01> *palm to forehead*
[23:58] <HEEGZ> heh
[23:58] <Leareth|014> lol
[23:58] <Halrin|014> meta taking precendence can be contrued two ways, as in it takes priority in the names
[23:58] <Leareth|014> so not I
[23:58] <spdrjns|011> Blerh, I'm fine with a BIT of meta, but not the class name printed in the name...
[23:58] <Cipher|01> ok let me rephrase in LAYMANS terms. Meta IN names or OUT?
[23:58] <spdrjns|011> Just somethin' that points to the name...
[23:58] <Leareth|014> in!
[23:58] <Halrin|014> in
[23:58] <spdrjns|011> A general "Goblin shaman" could be a cleric or druid really. ;I
[23:59] <spdrjns|011> In... To a degree? ;p
[23:59] <Cipher|01> waffler
[23:59] <spdrjns|011> You're a waffle. >;O
[23:59] <HEEGZ> IN
[23:59] <Rusty> in
[23:59] <Cipher|01> I abstain.
[23:59] <Rusty> You stain.
[23:59] Leareth|014 pours syrup on spider
[23:59] <Cipher|01> the INs take it!
[23:59] <HEEGZ> wait, unanimous? damn
[00:00] <HEEGZ> alright, next topic! woo hoo
[00:00] <Halrin|014> whats next cipher? the creature categories?
[00:00] <HEEGZ> only one hour for meta in!
[00:00] <spdrjns|011> ;p
[00:00] <Blackwill|006> lol
[00:00] <Leareth|014> heh sush there are wose
[00:00] <spdrjns|011> I'ma go make some Eggos, AFK a moment...
[00:01] <Halrin|014> heh
[00:01] <Cipher|01> do you guys want to discuss classifications here or on the forums?
[00:01] <Leareth|014> bring me some
[00:01] <Leareth|014> forums
[00:01] <Cipher|01> probably easier
[00:02] <Cipher|01> your assignment is to think about it between now and when I post
[00:02] <Halrin|014> *nods*
[00:02] <Leareth|014> we'll talk
[00:02] <Cipher|01> Ok. Now how about an update on what's been going on the last month.
[00:02] <Cipher|01> For those of you who are not aware
[00:03] <Halrin|014> cipher perhaps you can call us out one at a time or somethin?
[00:03] <Cipher|01> Sheyjin has created about 450 creatures (he added another roughly 150 recently) and Halrin also recently added 150 humans and elves
[00:03] <Cipher|01> Souvarine helped review and adjust blueprints to our guidelines, anything that was off that is.
[00:04] <Cipher|01> Now for you folks.
[00:04] <Blackwill|006> will the amount of available creatures bloat a mod?
[00:04] <Cipher|01> Sure, I'll call on each of you if you want.
[00:04] <Halrin|014> just tech related stuff, or is this a de facto server update as well
[00:05] <Cipher|01> It will increase the module size, yes. In relation to areas though....it may be quite small in comparison.
[00:06] <Cipher|01> I'd like to hear from server teams Halrin...where are you at, what are you using for content in your mods, and anything else you want or need to discuss specific to your servers.
[00:06] <Cipher|01> so i'll just go down the channel list
[00:06] <Halrin|014> k
[00:07] <Cipher|01> Blackwill? can you give us some info about moonsea?
[00:07] <Leareth|014> your up first
[00:07] <Cipher|01> Doh! Right. Waterdeep....
[00:08] <Blackwill|006> what you wanna know?
[00:08] <Fionn> What's Blackstaff up to?
[00:08] <Blackwill|006> he's dead!
[00:09] <spdrjns|011> Yep
[00:09] <Cipher|01> We're building 4 exterior areas for live: SouthGate, Adventurers Quarter, Docks Ward, and Castle Waterdeep & vicinity.
[00:09] <spdrjns|011> Deaded
[00:09] <HEEGZ> there is a new blackstaff though, right?
[00:10] <HEEGZ> i read the last 5-6 pages :p
[00:10] <HEEGZ> no idea who she is
[00:10] <spdrjns|011> An elf apprentice of his.
[00:10] <Halrin|014> cipher
[00:10] <spdrjns|011> Named err, somethin'...
[00:10] <HEEGZ> er, sorry, Blackwill is up, my bad
[00:10] <Fionn> PuQ never liked the stingy bastiche anyhow
[00:10] <HEEGZ> AFK 5
[00:10] <Halrin|014> are the 4 exteriors based on tech limitations or just thats all you want to accomplish
[00:10] <Fionn> I don't see Castano
[00:10] <spdrjns|011> She's actually a sorceress too... Not a wizard. ;f
[00:10] <Fionn> anyone talk about Moonshae yet?
[00:10] Leareth|014 [0c86d326@14055a7a.sui211.atln.attga31ur.dsl.6ca6a92c.net.hmsk] has left #alfatech
[00:11] Fionn has been busy at work
[00:11] <Halrin|014> no, we're kinda going in order, cipher went first
[00:11] Blackwill|006 waits on the word GO
[00:11] <Cipher|01> Adv Quarter is laid out but I haven't touched base with Marklos to see exactly what he has completed. SouthGate is probably 70% of the way there. DockWard is still roughly laid out (where some of you saw it during the test).
[00:11] Leareth|014 [0c86d326@14055a7a.sui211.atln.attga31ur.dsl.6ca6a92c.net.hmsk] has joined #alfatech
[00:12] <Cipher|01> Sheyjin's got 2 levels of undermountain done and also has some of skullport done. I haven't heard from Rick in a while, so I don't know if he's progressed on the sewers
[00:13] <Cipher|01> Shey's obviously built a ton of creature blueprints, but beyond that, we haven't really created anything for consumption.
[00:13] <Cipher|01> Last thing. We needed ABR placeables yesterday.
[00:13] <Cipher|01> any questions?
[00:13] <HEEGZ> back
[00:14] <Daeftan> *cheers for the placeables*
[00:14] Fionn is now known as Fionn|09
[00:14] <Blackwill|006> ABR placeables... *grumble*
[00:14] <Blackwill|006> Daeftan, get a number! ;P
[00:14] <spdrjns|011> Maybe Burt can be begged into doing it. ;p
[00:14] <Cipher|01> @halrin: the 4 areas are to get to beta in a reasonable time frame
[00:15] <Cipher|01> heegz and I discussed what parts of WD were most interesting to focus on (or essential)
[00:15] <Halrin|014> *nods*
[00:15] <Cipher|01> and that's what we're going to go live with initially
[00:15] <Halrin|014> what size? out of curiosity
[00:15] <Cipher|01> you mean module size?
[00:15] <Cipher|01> or area size?
[00:16] <Cipher|01> or both?
[00:16] <Halrin|014> area
[00:16] <Halrin|014> 32x32
[00:16] <Halrin|014> ?
[00:16] <HEEGZ> no
[00:16] <Cipher|01> south gate atm is 16x16
[00:16] Rusty is now known as Rusty|02
[00:16] <Halrin|014> ok
[00:16] <Cipher|01> I may adjust it ever so slightly to squeeze in a bit more content
[00:16] <Cipher|01> we decided to just build around an area of interest
[00:16] <Halrin|014> makes sense for the city i suppose
[00:16] <Cipher|01> with the intent of getting as many 'must have' landmarks in
[00:17] <Cipher|01> so area sizes will very likely vary
[00:17] <Halrin|014> sorry if that bsounded critical, just curious
[00:17] <Fionn|09> Blackwell
[00:17] <Cipher|01> not at all
[00:17] <Fionn|09> gotta see those psuedo vamps :
[00:17] <Fionn|09> )
[00:17] <spdrjns|011> So you'll be usin' a city map for a world map type deal to connect the sites?
[00:17] <Cipher|01> correct
[00:17] <Blackwill|006> okay
[00:18] <Blackwill|006> let me get my stack of papers together, unless there are anymore Q/A for Cipher?
[00:18] <spdrjns|011> Hmm...
[00:18] <spdrjns|011> Covering any nearby wilderness for live?
[00:18] <Cipher|01> bueller?
[00:18] <Fionn|09> quick semi genera ?
[00:19] <Fionn|09> Anybody doing anything with underwater areas?
[00:19] <Fionn|09> WD Harbor
[00:19] <Fionn|09> UM, etc?
[00:19] <Cipher|01> no, just whatever's outside the city gates. I expect there'll be plenty of wilderness on other servers to explore so for now, the focus remains the city.
[00:19] <Cipher|01> docks yes
[00:19] <Cipher|01> um yes
[00:19] <Fionn|09> underwater areas for PCs in dock ward?
[00:20] <Cipher|01> underwater...possibly. it's something we can explore
[00:20] Daeftan is now known as Daeftan|006
[00:20] <Fionn|09> Aye, of course, *are* you exploring now?
[00:20] <HEEGZ> no
[00:20] <Cipher|01> no, nobody is working on docks right now.
[00:20] <HEEGZ> post live mebbe, i want mermen!
[00:20] <Fionn|09> thx - just making sure I'm not duplicating effort here.
[00:20] <Halrin|014> and i want a golden throne
[00:20] <Cipher|01> umberlees cache!
[00:21] <Cipher|01> ok maybe not
[00:21] <Cipher|01> but the caves and passageways that the mermaids use could be fun
[00:21] <Fionn|09> Now I've got a mod to look at, I'll get those scripts done for you to steal
[00:21] <Cipher|01> we'll reserve a porcelain one for you Halrin
[00:22] <Fionn|09> Make sure the Temple of Gond has scuba gear
[00:22] <Leareth|014> make diving bells
[00:23] <Fionn|09> give me movable walk mesh
[00:23] <Cipher|01> sounds like fun Fionn.
[00:23] <Leareth|014> sure!
[00:23] Leareth|014 waves hands
[00:23] <Fionn|09> kk - sorry for the randomize there, but I've a meeting in 7 min, and it was somewhat on topic
[00:23] <Leareth|014> it's ok man
[00:23] <Cipher|01> I always wanted to do underwater exploration....don't tell anyone, but that's where the REAL LEWT is!!
[00:24] <spdrjns|011> ;O
[00:24] <Fionn|09> come to the Isles mate
[00:24] <Halrin|014> still waiting for blackwill to update us?
[00:24] <spdrjns|011> Our server is a landlocked dirt pile.
[00:24] <Cipher|01> you want to give us a quick update before you go Fionn?
[00:24] <Fionn|09> got a big lake spdr?
[00:24] <spdrjns|011> No.
[00:24] <spdrjns|011> Only a river.
[00:24] <Fionn|09> Castano has a mod up, looks good, he's still building the main harbor.
[00:25] <Cipher|01> Are you working on Moonshaes with Castano?
[00:25] <spdrjns|011> Well, two rivers, but it's actually one until a certain point...
[00:25] <spdrjns|011> River Chionthar, River Reaching.
[00:25] <Fionn|09> I'm not sure what other main areas he's got planned for *early* live
[00:25] <Fionn|09> I intend to have both swiming, wading and sailing scripte
[00:25] <Fionn|09> d
[00:25] Leareth|014 hugs Fionn
[00:26] <Blackwill|006> okay, who's next, me or Fionn?
[00:26] <Fionn|09> err... I just went
[00:26] <spdrjns|011> Well, he's gotta leave in immediately or somethin'. ;p
[00:26] <Cipher|01> anyone have any qeustions for the pirate?
[00:26] <Fionn|09> so you BW
[00:26] <Blackwill|006> lol
[00:27] <Blackwill|006> okay
[00:27] <Fionn|09> 4 min
[00:27] <Blackwill|006> sorry, I'm bussy building
[00:27] <Cipher|01> ok Blackwill
[00:27] <Blackwill|006> Our directive to get a primary beta up is this
[00:27] <Cipher|01> oh wait
[00:27] <Cipher|01> real quick
[00:27] <Blackwill|006> *sigh*
[00:27] <Blackwill|006> :p
[00:27] <Cipher|01> has castano created any content for moonshaes fionn? any scripts?
[00:27] <Fionn|09> I think he's on dirt
[00:27] <Cipher|01> ok
[00:28] <Fionn|09> and I've been too busy
[00:28] <Fionn|09> not sure if we've got anyone else actually intending on building at this point
[00:28] <Cipher|01> ok, just wanted to know
[00:28] <Cipher|01> thx
[00:28] <Fionn|09>
[00:28] <Cipher|01> blacky yer up
[00:29] <Blackwill|006> aproximetly 10-15 exteriors, 20 interios,...
[00:29] <Blackwill|006> most merchants, and a few statics
[00:29] <Blackwill|006> that's what we're aiming at.
[00:29] <Blackwill|006> The core is of course...
[00:29] <Blackwill|006> Zhentil Keep.
[00:30] <Blackwill|006> Which will be like 5-6 exteriors
[00:30] <Blackwill|006> 5-6 wilderness areas
[00:30] <Blackwill|006> but all close to our core area ZK
[00:30] <Blackwill|006> we're actually still following our directive we set out from our server application
[00:31] <Blackwill|006> questions?
[00:31] <HEEGZ> ETA for Beta up?
[00:31] <Fionn|09> or alpha?
[00:31] <Blackwill|006> 3 months, maybe more, depending on activity of current membership
[00:31] <HEEGZ> either, yes
[00:31] <Fionn|09> how long to see yer dirt?
[00:31] <Fionn|09> :)_
[00:31] <Cipher|01> how big are your areas? and same questions for you as for fionn. have you guys created any content and/or written any scripts?
[00:31] <Halrin|014> and.. as a suplementary.. are you evul blackwill
[00:31] <Blackwill|006> 24x24 erxteriors
[00:32] <Blackwill|006> no scripting or content as of yet
[00:32] <Blackwill|006> once ZK old city is done
[00:32] <Blackwill|006> Thangorn should move on to scripting
[00:32] <spdrjns|011> Hrmm...
[00:32] <spdrjns|011> I have a question.
[00:32] <spdrjns|011> About the status o' the city.
[00:32] <Blackwill|006> yeah?
[00:32] <spdrjns|011> Is it entirely rebuilt?
[00:32] <Blackwill|006> no
[00:33] <spdrjns|011> How much is still rubbled?
[00:33] <Blackwill|006> canon states it's not rebuilt
[00:33] <Blackwill|006> we're sticking close to the MotM book
[00:33] <spdrjns|011> As much as from the Ruins of Zhentil Keep maps?
[00:33] <spdrjns|011> Ahh.
[00:33] <Blackwill|006> so the old city, and the new docks
[00:33] <spdrjns|011> Okay, thanks.
[00:33] <Blackwill|006> + the newly constructed outer walls
[00:33] <Blackwill|006> BUT
[00:33] <Blackwill|006> we'd like to get stuff rebuilt ICly
[00:33] <Blackwill|006> as time passes
[00:34] <spdrjns|011> Sounds good.
[00:34] <Blackwill|006> I guess that's all from me then
[00:35] <Cipher|01> not so fast you black hearted scoundrel
[00:35] <Blackwill|006> hehehe
[00:35] <Cipher|01> will you be able to work on those placeables at all?
[00:35] <Blackwill|006> I hate uncomfortyable silences
[00:35] <HEEGZ> updated 06 Beta info to 3 months
[00:35] <HEEGZ> http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpbbforum/ ... 704#412704
[00:35] <HEEGZ> just a reminder to PM me with updates as you have them
[00:35] <Blackwill|006> I can, but I prefer building. But because of your good looks, I will
[00:36] <Cipher|01> What can I say. I'm charming.
[00:36] <Leareth|014> oooo
[00:36] <Cipher|01> Good on ya!
[00:36] <Leareth|014> ummmm can I get pics?
[00:36] <Blackwill|006> pics of?
[00:36] <Blackwill|006> me?
[00:36] <Leareth|014> both?
[00:36] <Blackwill|006> you'd have nightmares
[00:36] <Blackwill|006> your purty eyes would melt in yer skull.
[00:36] <Cipher|01> And on that note, let's not scare the children. Next!
[00:37] <Blackwill|006> I'll do my best to get another look at them sunday
[00:37] <Cipher|01> Hmmm gribo?
[00:37] Leareth|014 grumbles about children
[00:37] <Cipher|01> gribo?
[00:37] <Cipher|01> gribo?
[00:37] Blackwill|006 hands cipher a prodding stick
[00:37] <spdrjns|011> Gribo, plz make me a hobgoblin model, thx
[00:37] <Cipher|01> gribo?
[00:37] <HEEGZ> troglodytes as well please
[00:38] <Cipher|01> Ok I think I heard from his sisters boyfriends cousins brother that he was out sick. So let's move on to Halrin.
[00:38] <Halrin|014> First I'll describe our progress to date, then what i hope to have for beta, and the extent to which we've planned for live
[00:38] Leareth|014 beems
[00:38] <Halrin|014> so far, 3 finished 24x24 externals
[00:38] <Halrin|014> witha 4th done this weekend
[00:39] <Halrin|014> all of those in myth drannor city itself, where we're focusing our main effort at the moment
[00:39] <Halrin|014> interiors, theres 3 done for the city, with a bunch more for battledale
[00:39] <Halrin|014> no scripts in use or made, we're not really the scripting bunch
[00:40] <Halrin|014> the creatures made for the mod are mainly unfinished and intended only for use in our upcomming trailer
[00:40] <Leareth|014> heh I can but right now I have other things I'm wrestling with
[00:40] <Halrin|014> now: plans for beta
[00:40] <Halrin|014> im not comfortable with a beta goign up until myth drannor city is finished
[00:40] <Halrin|014> meaning another 4 24x24 areas
[00:41] <Halrin|014> and a few dozen interiors
[00:41] <Halrin|014> obviously scripting and such as well
[00:41] <Halrin|014> Live, minimum is 8 externals (md city) 6 externals (essembra), 4 externals (Abbey of the sword)
[00:42] <Halrin|014> with numerous others for encounters, adventuring etc
[00:43] <Halrin|014> my inclusion of abr material has been hindered so far by a personal tech problem, whereby my toolset will never allow me to use plugins of any description, including the campaign editor
[00:43] <Halrin|014> still looking for a solution to that one
[00:43] <Halrin|014> ...
[00:43] <Halrin|014> any details im missing
[00:43] <Halrin|014> or anything anyoen would like to know?
[00:44] <Halrin|014> also, i tested the areas we DO have done online teh other day and they have met with a great reception
[00:44] <Blackwill|006> yeah, when you gonna get on our moonsea boards to discuss a major cross-server campaign :p
[00:44] <HEEGZ> ETA on Beta? 4 months?
[00:44] <Blackwill|006> it's an honust to god question
[00:44] <Halrin|014> I check it everyday blackwill
[00:44] <Daeftan|006> dumb question, Hal... did you enable the 'all-plugins' feature in your options menu?
[00:44] <Cipher|01> Did I understand correctly that you won't go live until you have all 18 areas complete?
[00:44] <Halrin|014> so whenever you want to discuss
[00:45] <Blackwill|006> okay, I'll start the ball rolling
[00:45] <Blackwill|006> ty
[00:45] <Halrin|014> that is my intent cipher
[00:45] <Halrin|014> especially since we are not in the intiial live release
[00:46] <Halrin|014> rick is doing the 4 for the abbey though, so its mroe like 14, and leareths doing all of essembra so im hoping it will all be ready pretty much at the same time
[00:46] <Leareth|014> tenatively we would like the both cities and the abby complete initaly before we go to the next stage
[00:47] <Cipher|01> Are you going with a grid based design?
[00:47] <Halrin|014> yes
[00:47] <Leareth|014> *nods*
[00:47] <Cipher|01> How's that working for you so far?
[00:47] <Halrin|014> in the eventuality we can start to 'fill in the gaps' in the future
[00:47] <Halrin|014> well its pretty easy
[00:47] <Halrin|014> we've gridded out everything south of the standing stone
[00:48] <Halrin|014> and since MD city is the only thing north of the standing stone being built right now, that can wait
[00:48] <Leareth|014> we've discussed how much area each major section would take
[00:48] <Halrin|014> beta i should think, 3 months is reasonable, 4 tops
[00:48] <HEEGZ> thx
[00:48] <Halrin|014> i expect MD city exteriors to be done in the next 2 months
[00:49] Burt [whothehell@7a5ca082.cable.ubr03.dund.blueyonder.14056081.uk.hmsk] has joined #alfatech
[00:49] <Cipher|01> Sounds good.
[00:49] <Burt> hay guys, spider invited me
[00:49] <HEEGZ> updated
[00:49] <Halrin|014> so other than integrating tech stuff, we're on a very good pace
[00:49] <Cipher|01> Thx. Anything more for Halrin?
[00:49] <Cipher|01> Hi Burt.
[00:49] <spdrjns|011> Burt, you will do ABR placeables.
[00:49] <spdrjns|011> It's already been voted.
[00:49] <spdrjns|011> You have no say.
[00:49] <Burt> : |
[00:49] <spdrjns|011> Get to work.
[00:50] <Halrin|014> also, any of you who would likea look around whats done so far, just PM me, the pwc is on the vault and i'll host a tour foranyoen who asks
[00:50] <Leareth|014> we'll happily show off
[00:50] <Burt> when's Beta Halrin? You can tell me. I won't spill the beans.
[00:50] <Cipher|01>
[00:50] <Halrin|014> beta is anywhere from 2 - 4 months,
[00:50] <Halrin|014> aiming for 3
[00:51] <Burt> god damnit you lazy slacker, I can't wait that long
[00:51] <Burt> stop messing about and so some bloody work, what are we paying you for!
[00:51] <Cipher|01> We should all set up temp mods for teams to look through. THere may be lots of good ideas to share with one another.
[00:51] <Halrin|014> ill see what i can do for you burt
[00:51] <spdrjns|011> Oh, err, I've got somethin' tech related I've got to mention...
[00:51] <spdrjns|011> I dunno if anyone else has reported it...
[00:52] <spdrjns|011> ABR doors don't seem to allow ATs.
[00:52] <Halrin|014> if I had access to whatever FTP people use to upload mods around here I'd post what we have for MD so far
[00:52] <spdrjns|011> For some reason.
[00:52] <spdrjns|011> ;I
[00:52] <Halrin|014> yea
[00:52] <spdrjns|011> The ATs don't function on 'em.
[00:52] <Halrin|014> we've tested and tried with MD but you cant do it
[00:52] <spdrjns|011> Was gonna tell Ronan, but, he's kinda missin' in action fer the moments.
[00:52] <Cipher|01> Hmm. Ok thanks for bringing it up.
[00:53] <Halrin|014> not sure how it helps, but when you alter the 'tag' or 'linked to' fields on normal doors, the altered information goes bold, but for abr doors it doesnt
[00:54] <Cipher|01> ok i've noted it
[00:55] <Cipher|01> i'll take a look
[00:55] <Cipher|01> who's next....
[00:55] <Cipher|01> eeny meeny....
[00:55] <Cipher|01> ok Rusty
[00:55] spdrjns|011 hides in the back.
[00:55] <HEEGZ> does everyone not know the Tech FTP?
[00:55] <HEEGZ> i can link it now if needed
[00:55] <spdrjns|011> I don't have the info fer it.
[00:55] <HEEGZ> ftp://alfatech:moonblade@ftp.alandfaraway.org/
[00:56] <spdrjns|011> People have just given me links when I needed anything from it. :f
[00:56] <Cipher|01> BTW
[00:56] <Cipher|01> This is all public
[00:56] <Blackwill|006> can we upload parts of our mods there?
[00:56] <Cipher|01> so be careful what you upload there
[00:56] <Blackwill|006> ah
[00:56] <Blackwill|006> k
[00:56] <Cipher|01> if you don't want your mod seen
[00:56] <Cipher|01> don't post it there
[00:56] Burt stops uploading porn
[00:56] <Blackwill|006> heh
[00:56] <Cipher|01> so that's who....
[00:56] <Cipher|01>
[00:56] <Leareth|014> ......
[00:57] <Leareth|014> put some good stuff up damn it
[00:57] <Halrin|014> i i bothered to toss up what we have done of MD so far, would anyoen like to have a look at it?
[00:57] <Cipher|01> of course
[00:57] <Halrin|014> k then, will do
[00:57] <Leareth|014> or would you prefer the tour
[00:57] <Cipher|01> but don't post it there
[00:57] <Halrin|014> nothings done yet that would ruin things for potential players
[00:57] <Cipher|01> I suggest you post your mods on the DM FTP
[00:57] <spdrjns|011> I ain't a DM.
[00:57] <Halrin|014> im not a dm at the moment
[00:57] <spdrjns|011> >;O
[00:57] <Burt> I want to look...but I want to play there when it goes live : |
[00:57] <Leareth|014> I can do it
[00:58] <spdrjns|011> DMs are saps...
[00:58] spdrjns|011 snorts.
[00:58] <Halrin|014> burt you can play there just fine
[00:58] <Leareth|014> it's a beta
[00:58] <Burt> but I'd spoil teh surprise
[00:58] <Halrin|014> as I said, nothing that would ruin things for players is finished yet
[00:58] <Leareth|014> more like not even beta
[00:58] <Cipher|01> spider you're the last one I think. have you guys gotten back on track with TSV?
[00:58] <Halrin|014> its basically 3 exteriors a festhall and a shop
[00:58] <Burt> sign me up then baby
[00:59] Blackwill|006 [ace_parke@54f64ee8.access.ccd2bebe.be.hmsk] has quit IRC (Quit: Oh I hate walkmeshes... they are the bane of my life.)
[00:59] <Burt> if spider's is logging in I will
[01:00] <spdrjns|011> Logging in?
[01:00] <spdrjns|011> What the hell are you jabberin' about?
[01:00] <Leareth|014> MD
[01:00] <Burt> jabberwocky
[01:00] <spdrjns|011> So, yes, Sunset Vale.
[01:00] <Halrin|014> im tossing it up on the tech ftp, im not worried about anyone seeing it
[01:01] <spdrjns|011> For the initial beta we want to get Asbravn up with some surrounds, including dungeon areas beneath.
[01:01] <spdrjns|011> All the team currently around are working on bits for Asbravn.
[01:01] <Cipher|01> np hal, just wanted to make sure you were informed
[01:01] <spdrjns|011> I need to talk to Ronan about a few things... Since he's the one with all the static plans, we're kinda struggling with the fact that we're likely to need to use a world map...
[01:01] <Halrin|014> *nods*
[01:02] <spdrjns|011> Nobody really wants to do that. ;I
[01:02] <spdrjns|011> But we likely will have to.
[01:02] <spdrjns|011> Ronan's got some statics planned that require some substantial wilderness around Asbravn, so, need to talk to him about that stuff...
[01:02] <spdrjns|011> Our plan for initial live remains the same as the proposal.
[01:02] <spdrjns|011> Most of the server is small towns, and we want to get the majority of them complete before live.
[01:03] <spdrjns|011> Err, guess that's about it. Acadius is working on seamless AT stuff, Ronan is obviously doin' his share of work with ACR stuff when he's around and not burnt to a crisp...
[01:03] <spdrjns|011> Bartleby will likely have some scripts to contribute.
[01:04] <Cipher|01> Just to note, you can always use the world map as a starter system to connect your areas and pull it once/if your mod grows.
[01:04] <spdrjns|011> If you're not familiar with his work on Moonshaes you should check it out.
[01:04] <Halrin|014> bartleby does good work
[01:04] <spdrjns|011> Lots of neat little scripts, like, being able to call waitresses over to your table in taverns.
[01:04] <spdrjns|011> And suchs.
[01:04] <Leareth|014> ooo
[01:04] <Leareth|014> can we get?
[01:04] <spdrjns|011> We're planning on exploitin' his work like that to the fullest and really bringin' the server to life.
[01:04] <Halrin|014> we need one for tossing frozen fish at patrons... nto callign waitresses
[01:04] <spdrjns|011> He's waiting on some info about the spawning system thogh.
[01:05] <spdrjns|011> :I
[01:05] <Leareth|014> .... how about both
[01:05] <spdrjns|011> Before he gets really into that.
[01:05] <Leareth|014> can we call the waitress and fling frozen fish?
[01:05] <Halrin|014>
[01:05] <Halrin|014> let the man talk
[01:05] <Halrin|014> pester later
[01:05] <spdrjns|011> I guess that's it. :p
[01:05] <Leareth|014> sorry.. sorry
[01:05] Leareth|014 zips it
[01:05] <Halrin|014>
[01:05] <Cipher|01> any questions for spider?
[01:06] <spdrjns|011> None? ;f
[01:06] <Cipher|01> going once....
[01:06] <Halrin|014> how extensive are your wilderness exteriors going to be
[01:06] <Halrin|014> as in how many areas town/wilderness
[01:06] <Leareth|014> about those scripts
[01:06] <Halrin|014> are you aiming for
[01:06] <spdrjns|011> Well, we really wanted to include parts of the Reaching Woods, and countryside for Red Cloak statics out of Asbravn...
[01:06] <Halrin|014> something im struggling with in cormanthor is that im not sure how much 'woods' i can include
[01:06] <spdrjns|011> We're not really sure how much we'll actually be able to fit. ;I
[01:07] <Halrin|014> *nods* ok

[Veilan]

[01:07] <Cipher|01> you mean varieties of trees hal?
[01:07] <Leareth|014> areas
[01:07] <Halrin|014> no no, number of exterior areas that i can devote to wilderness
[01:07] <Cipher|01> I see
[01:07] <spdrjns|011> Ronan is going to build us a really mean host machine though, so we're going to push it as much as we can.
[01:08] <spdrjns|011> And hopefully it will run. ;p
[01:08] <Halrin|014> its crucial for there to be parts fo the forest, but externals are so resource heavy, it feels almost like a waste to not have merely points of interest
[01:08] <spdrjns|011> We've been talking about maybe running two instances of NWN2 server, and such...
[01:08] <Cipher|01> Yeah for now at least.
[01:08] <Leareth|014> two?
[01:08] <spdrjns|011> Yes.
[01:08] <Leareth|014> why? for different areas?
[01:08] <Cipher|01> That's primarily the reason I allowed myself to be persuaded from the grid method.
[01:08] <spdrjns|011> Possibly having two modules to cover more areas.
[01:09] <spdrjns|011> :I
[01:09] <Leareth|014> ah *nods*
[01:09] <Halrin|014> not a bad plan actually spider, i may have to consider that as well
[01:09] <Leareth|014> it's an option
[01:10] <Halrin|014> Myth Drannor is now up in the 'temp_mod' folder of the tech ftp
[01:10] <Cipher|01> I have a question, well more of a request really, from all the teams. Can each of you folks have at least one person who's actively contributing to ABR or ACR?
[01:10] <Cipher|01> I realize the building is vastly more fun at this juncture
[01:11] <Leareth|014> heh
[01:11] <Halrin|014> leareth and I will no doubt continue to contribute cipher
[01:11] <Leareth|014> once my question is answered I will work on scripts
[01:11] <Cipher|01> but my sense is that the you're all pulling so far ahead of our core needs
[01:12] <Cipher|01> It would be greatly appreciated and will help balance our progress.
[01:12] <spdrjns|011> Yea...
[01:12] <Halrin|014> *shrugs* not really, more like, building the framework so we can implement the core stuff ASAP
[01:12] <Rusty|02> (They key thing is people don't start adding mobs of their own.)
[01:12] <Halrin|014> point taken
[01:13] <spdrjns|011> Well, I've told my team before to help with ABR/ACR where they can.
[01:13] <spdrjns|011> I know Acadius is helping some with seamless ATs and stuff?
[01:13] <Cipher|01> Yes he's helping with items too.
[01:13] <Cipher|01> I may already be preaching to the choice here.
[01:13] <Halrin|014> no, we're building exteriors and interiors with no population until abr is compelte
[01:13] <Cipher|01> choir that is
[01:13] <Daeftan|006> blackwill is 06's ABR contributor
[01:14] <Halrin|014> I'm afraid I'mm ill suited for most tech needs, I'll continue on creatures, i believe theres still many to do
[01:14] <spdrjns|011> I was working on trolls but kinda lost the steam there, since many of the trolls I was building need scripting work, and I don't wanna give tech people any more they need to do at the moment really. :p
[01:15] <Cipher|01> once we quare away the naming issue, we can actually release those critters.
[01:15] <spdrjns|011> All the different sorts of trolls with their own types of things that damage them and one has poison that needs to be added to 2das and blah blah...
[01:15] <Halrin|014> is souvarine still checking over submissiosn to keep them in line?
[01:15] <Cipher|01> he was for the 450 I sent his way
[01:16] <Cipher|01> I'll have to touch base with him
[01:16] <Leareth|014> I'm impressed people
[01:16] <Cipher|01> and see if his mind has turned to mush yet
[01:16] <spdrjns|011> :p
[01:16] <spdrjns|011> Need more volunteers on that stuff.
[01:16] <Cipher|01> this was a very constructive meeting. glad you could all attend.
[01:17] <Rusty|02> hayhay
[01:17] <Rusty|02> Spreadsheet
[01:17] <Cipher|01> does anyone have any other questions or issues to dicuss?
[01:17] <Leareth|014> we kick butt
[01:17] <Rusty|02> Everyone see the draft fields?
[01:17] <Halrin|014> ?
[01:17] Rusty|02 puts on Server Review hat
[01:17] <Leareth|014> ummm language
[01:17] <spdrjns|011> Draft what?
[01:17] <Cipher|01> the checklist
[01:17] <Rusty|02> nwn2 server discussion forum thingy
[01:17] <Cipher|01> for server review
[01:17] <Rusty|02> There is a list of fields
[01:17] <spdrjns|011> Oh, right.
[01:17] <Rusty|02> Which are in a spreadsheet
[01:17] <spdrjns|011> Yea.
[01:17] <spdrjns|011> Oh, I didn't see any spreadsheet.
[01:18] <Rusty|02> If they ain't complete, the server doesn't get reviewed.
[01:18] <Rusty|02> Spreadsheet isn't there - taht's just the fields.
[01:18] <spdrjns|011> Then stop makin' up lies!
[01:18] <spdrjns|011> >;O
[01:18] <Rusty|02> I need to knwo if anyone thinks of something I've missed.
[01:18] <spdrjns|011> Hmm...
[01:18] <Halrin|014> a moment
[01:18] <Leareth|014> languages! starting regions!
[01:18] <Rusty|02> Cause clearly after I release a ssheet to all the teams we dont wanna change it
[01:18] <HEEGZ> i couldn't think of anything
[01:19] <spdrjns|011> What about languages/starting regions?
[01:19] <Leareth|014> are they being implemented?
[01:19] <Leareth|014> or should I do something else?
[01:20] <spdrjns|011> Hrm. :I
[01:20] <spdrjns|011> Well, languages would be useful.
[01:20] <Leareth|014> true but it's based on ronan's system
[01:20] <Leareth|014> are we using it
[01:20] <spdrjns|011> What else would the regions be used for? Not starting gear/regional feats?
[01:20] <Leareth|014> as far as I know it's pure language
[01:20] <Leareth|014> that's why I'm asking
[01:21] <Veilan> # heading to bed, if someone else could take over logging, would be appreciated
[01:21] <Leareth|014> do we have the means to implement this so I should spend the time?
[01:22] <Rusty|02> I dunno.
[01:22] <Rusty|02> There is language stuff out there already.
[01:22] <HEEGZ> did you bring up crafting yet rusty?
*** Log file closed: 10.02.2007 01:22:43

[ç i p h é r]

Thanks Alara. Could you be so kind as to trim the top half of the first post up until the countdown. That contains nonsensical chat from about 30 minutes before the meeting so it's just a waste of a read.

Done - Rusty

[ç i p h é r]

Thank you Rusty. I've also moved the meeting minutes from the prior two meetings here as it seems a better location for it.

[HEEGZ]

Aha! So that's where they've been moved. Wasted 10 minutes of my life looking for them and reposting the log, hahaha.

[HEEGZ]

[18:22] * Veilan has left #alfatech
[18:22] <Rusty> I brought up my spreadsheet.
[18:22] <HEEGZ> k
[18:22] <Rusty> We need one team to beta test mulu's crafting proposal
[18:23] <Rusty> Which is based pretty much on the oe system
[18:23] <spdrjns> :I
[18:23] <Rusty> but with some locks around it
[18:23] <Rusty> But, really, that's secondary to othe important issue, i.e. the ABR.
[18:24] <Cipher> I volunteer WD.
[18:24] <Cipher> We've got the guilds for it, that's for sure.
[18:24] <spdrjns> Yea. :p
[18:24] <HEEGZ> WD has guilds?
[18:24] <Rusty> I'd prefer to think of 'guild' as more of a concept than a iron cast IG idea.
[18:24] <spdrjns> We've got a uh, barrel maker...
[18:24] <spdrjns> ;I
[18:24] <Rusty> i.e. your local blacksmith is a 'guild' simply because he controls the local ironmongry industry
[18:24] <Cipher> We have dung sweepers.
[18:24] <Cipher> We win.
[18:24] <spdrjns> ;O
[18:25] <spdrjns> Yea, Waterdeep has lots of guilds.
[18:25] <spdrjns> Most large cities like that do.
[18:25] <Rusty> But, either way, at one of hte beta stages we will need that trialling.
[18:25] <Rusty> As for 002 - well we're working to a much slower schedule than you lot.
[18:25] <spdrjns> Iriaebor would, but, we're not building that for initial live, and possibly not ever if we don't have the room.
[18:25] <spdrjns> ;I
[18:26] <Cipher> Remind me which region 02 is?
[18:26] <Rusty> sword coast north
[18:26] <Rusty> but we're building IWD
[18:26] <HEEGZ> frozen north
[18:26] <Cipher> got it
[18:26] <spdrjns> The Frozen Sword Coast North Drizztland.
[18:27] <Rusty> not gonna do mirabar, luskan, neverwinter
[18:27] <spdrjns> Well then...
[18:27] <spdrjns> Where's the sword coast involved in that? ;p
[18:27] * spdrjns|011 sneezes.
[18:28] <spdrjns> Doing Fireshaer and Auckney and such?
[18:28] <spdrjns> err, Fireshear.
[18:28] <Cipher> Isn't that covered by 03?
[18:28] <spdrjns> I don't believe in server numbers. ;I
[18:28] <spdrjns> Where's this map? |;
[18:28] <Cipher> lol well me neither
[18:29] <Daeftan> i dont believe in taxes but i still pay'em
[18:29] <Halrin> well i believe this meetings winding down and I'll take my leave with your approval cipher
[18:29] <Rusty> spdrjns|011: no
[18:29] <Rusty> ten towns, bits of spine
[18:29] <spdrjns> Ahh. :F
[18:29] <spdrjns> Nothin' south o' that?
[18:29] <Cipher> did you have anything else to add Rusty?
[18:29] <Cipher> before we go
[18:29] <Rusty> Nope.
[18:30] <Cipher> THen I'll leave you all with a fleeting thought. We need magic items.
[18:30] <spdrjns> :I
[18:30] <Cipher> Thanks for coming. Heegz, can you post a log?
[18:30] <spdrjns> Got a list?
[18:30] <spdrjns> Of what's done/being worked on?
[18:30] <HEEGZ> i can yes
[18:30] <Rusty> Magic Items kinda need to wait till we have our price setting in the tset sorted out.
[18:31] <Cipher> Wondrous Items from the DMG and standard gear from the PHB (rope, rations, etc) the only thing that's been created.
[18:31] <spdrjns> Hmm, okay.
[18:31] <spdrjns> I can help with that easy enough. :p
[18:31] <Halrin> cipher i'll do items or creatures, but im not interested in both
[18:31] <Halrin> would you rather have me start some items?
[18:31] <Cipher> these are magic items though. > 1 gp. is there a problem there Rusty?
[18:32] <Rusty> depends on tset prices vs our prices
[18:32] * Leareth|014 has quit IRC (Quit: SorceryNet CGI:IRC)
[18:32] <Rusty> are we able to reduce prices yet?
[18:32] <Rusty> i thought that wasn't working fully
[18:32] <Halrin> as in - depends on if we need to lower the OE price? because we cant do that at the moment?
[18:32] <Cipher> We may not get negative price modifiers until well after live.
[18:32] <Halrin> because anything worth more than OE price we just add value
[18:33] <Cipher> Is approximation simply unacceptable?
[18:33] <Rusty> depends
[18:33] <Rusty> some stuff will be way outta whack
[18:33] <Rusty> orders of magnitude
[18:33] <Rusty> and has to be plot tagged with an OOC note on
[18:33] <Rusty> or I will cry
[18:34] <spdrjns> So, hold off on the magickar? ;f
[18:34] <Rusty> cause PCs will sell 50gp items for 5000 or buy 5000 for 50 gp
[18:34] <Rusty> Well - there is more important ABR stuff I think
[18:34] <spdrjns> Creatures/placeables?
[18:34] <Rusty> And magickar pricing is important
[18:34] <Rusty> Yeah
[18:34] <Rusty> And mundane gear
[18:34] <spdrjns> TT did that.
[18:34] <Rusty> We can do it -- but we need to get pricing as right as possible.
[18:34] <spdrjns> Well...
[18:34] <spdrjns> The items and things.
[18:34] <Halrin> mundane gear is done?
[18:34] <spdrjns> Dunno if he did weapons/armor.
[18:35] <Halrin> ah
[18:35] <spdrjns> [19:31] <Cipher> Wondrous Items from the DMG and standard gear from the PHB (rope, rations, etc) the only thing that's been created.
[18:35] <spdrjns> :F
[18:35] <spdrjns> He did that stuff.
[18:35] <Halrin> well, i can make a bunch of mundane items no problem
[18:35] <Halrin> and in different colours etc
[18:35] <Cipher> no not mundane gear
[18:35] <Cipher> well gear, not armor, weapons, etc
[18:36] <Halrin> is the armor, wepaons done?
[18:36] <Cipher> nada
[18:36] <Rusty> well, i'd suggest mundane before magic
[18:36] <Rusty> so we can see what developments we get (if any) on -gp
[18:36] <Halrin> so.. if i made a bunch of mundane armor lets say
[18:36] <Cipher> I should itemize the list somewherez
[18:36] <Halrin> that would be useful?
[18:36] <spdrjns> Does NWN2 misprice mundane weapons like NWN? :f
[18:36] <spdrjns> Double cost?
[18:37] <spdrjns> Might have to wait on those as well. :I
[18:37] <Cipher> the trouble is, creatures use items :/
[18:37] <spdrjns> Yea...
[18:38] <Cipher> well we have perhaps 2 months before these need to be in place?
[18:38] <Cipher> we could see what OE gives us
[18:39] <spdrjns> So, what should we work on for ABR? :I
[18:39] <Halrin> armor wise, its garbage for races other than human
[18:39] <spdrjns> Creatures that don't use items?
[18:39] <Halrin> when i made my humans and elves, the humans looked alright in OE armor, but the elves looked odd indeed
[18:40] <Rusty> there is a thread on armour sizes as well
[18:40] <Rusty> in nwn2
[18:40] <Rusty> about having consistent racial armour sizes in ABR
[18:40] <Rusty> gnome/hin | dorf | helf, elf | helf, human | horc
[18:40] <Rusty> is how i like it best
[18:41] <spdrjns> :I
[18:41] <Halrin> I personally dont care for that much specialization, but will build to that if its decided and set in stone
[18:41] <spdrjns> Well, don't want to get too complicated.
[18:41] <spdrjns> Small/Medium size would be nice.
[18:41] <HEEGZ> i'm off for dinner, i'll keep logging and post when you guys wrap up.
[18:41] <Rusty> a lot of armour looks lousy on the wrong body sizes
[18:42] <spdrjns> Though, dwarves fitting into the same suit o' mail as a human is a bit weird. ;p
[18:42] <Rusty> and its conceptually grim
[18:42] <Halrin> well i've no problem building to that for the abr anyways
[18:42] <Rusty> can make good stylistic variations as well
[18:42] <Rusty> for starting merchants and for specific cultural locations
[18:43] <spdrjns> :F
[18:43] <Halrin> ive no intention to build to anything other than small/medium size for 014s own items however unless its mandated on me from above
[18:43] <spdrjns> Sounds neat, but, lots more work? ;f
[18:43] <Rusty> lots more work, aye
[18:43] <Rusty> isn't there some nonsense about magic armour being autoresizing?
[18:44] <Cipher> we've got to make some judgements on pricing eventually
[18:44] <Halrin> how about this, we try to bang out a 'base' set of a few variatiosn for each type of armor
[18:44] <Halrin> then we can worry about more specific stuff
[18:44] <Rusty> what about pricing?
[18:44] <spdrjns> Well, that's no longer true in 3.5.
[18:44] <Cipher> OE pricing vs D&D/ALFA pricing
[18:44] <spdrjns> About the resizin'.
[18:44] <spdrjns> Since there are now small/medium sizes of everythin'.
[18:45] <spdrjns> I guess it's still assumed for rings and things.
[18:45] <spdrjns> Don't need halfling sized rings.
[18:45] <spdrjns> Et ceteras.
[18:45] <Halrin> if we start making ring sizes i quit :/
[18:45] <spdrjns> :p
[18:45] <Rusty> :F
[18:45] <Rusty> hat sizes
[18:45] <Rusty> pls
[18:45] <spdrjns> Though, NWN2 doesn't use the weapon size rules from 3.5...
[18:45] <Halrin> heh
[18:45] <Cipher> is it the base items that's throwing off the price or the item property values? or both? any idea rusty?
[18:45] <spdrjns> So, I dunno. ;p
[18:45] <Rusty> Base items are fairly inconsequential in a magic item
[18:45] <Cipher> base item's price
[18:46] <Rusty> in nwn1 some properties are simply horridly wrongly priced
[18:46] <Rusty> now, where they're under the builder can just add
[18:46] <Halrin> anyways guys, im out, im sure ill hear aboutanything else accomplished here
[18:46] <Rusty> e.g. +1 skill should be +100 gp not +15
[18:46] <Rusty> but where they are over, we have a problem
[18:46] <spdrjns> ;I
[18:46] * Halrin|014 has quit IRC
[18:46] <Rusty> So the person doing it has to (1) be good with the pricing standsrds
[18:46] <Rusty> (2) record where they are over
[18:46] <Rusty> do that and we're ok i think
[18:46] <spdrjns> Yea, skills are priced low, I think ability enhancers are overpriced?
[18:47] <Rusty> i'll look at the over ones by case and work something out
[18:47] <spdrjns> Et ceteras.
[18:48] <Cipher> we could alter the relevant 2da entries...
[18:48] <Rusty> yeah
[18:48] <Rusty> so we can do magic now
[18:48] <Rusty> but keep a list of all overpriced
[18:49] <Cipher> fair enough
[18:49] <Rusty> and give it to me and we'll look at what to do with it
[18:49] <Rusty> however
[18:49] <Rusty> hold on for 1 week
[18:49] <Cipher> do we know what the correct item prop values should be?
[18:49] <Rusty> cause stnadards has to go over pricing next week :p
[18:49] <Rusty> assuming we ever finish XP ;p
[18:49] <Cipher> ok
[18:49] <Cipher> that's not a problem
[18:49] <Rusty> they wont change much from the current
[18:50] <spdrjns> Do the +1d6 fire and such multiply on crits like they did before?
[18:50] <spdrjns> That'd be one of the bigger changes if they don't.
[18:51] <Rusty> I think initial tests says they dno't
[18:51] <Rusty> But i havent had it confirmed across the boar
[18:51] <Rusty> d
[18:51] <Rusty> that is one of things i'm gonna raise next week in S&T
[18:51] <spdrjns> k
[18:51] <Rusty> that is big, plus some of the feats
[18:51] <Rusty> and a couiple of tweaks i wanna make
[18:51] <Rusty> but not much
[18:52] <Cipher> hokay. I'm spent. Can you let me know when the standards team's decided on pricing then?
[18:52] <Rusty> Yup. Aim is next week's task.
[18:53] <Cipher> Great. Thanks much.
[18:53] <Rusty> Thanks Cipher|01
[18:53] <Cipher> And on that note, meeting adjourned. Smile
[18:53] * Rusty|02 has left #alfatech
[18:53] <Cipher> Night folks. Thanks for coming.
[18:53] <Daeftan> night
[18:54] * Cipher|01 has left #alfatech
[18:55] * Daeftan|006 has quit IRC (Quit: See you later ALFA!)
[19:20] * spdrjns|011 is now known as spdrjns
[19:45] * spdrjns is now known as spdrjns|toolset
Session Close: Fri Feb 09 20:20:24 2007

[Rotku]

So... who wants to give me a summary?

[Audark]

the big decision was that some limited meta is going to be included in creature names for the time being, at least until obsideon fixes the DM client to also show information in { }.

For those not in the know, including something in { } in the toolset hides that information from players(and DMs unfortunately)

so a 'Wood Elf {Ranger, CR 7 etc}' would appear in game only as 'Wood Elf'

what was decided is that race, class or descriptor and gender can be included in the player viewable name, for a few reasons.

Most importantly it is because without other descriptors theres no way a DM can tell anything apart in the client. if things were only named Drow, DMs would just have 20 'Drow' no idea what classes they were and no idea what gender they are, thus making spawning creatures much more cumbersome in a trial and error.

secondly this small amount of meta in names was deemed acceptable by some because unlike NWN1, NWN2 doesnt highlight everythings name when you hold 'Z' (TAB in NWN1), their names only appear if you scroll your cursor over them.

so expect to see names like Goblin Shaman, and Moon Elf Cleric Female, this may be changed back to simple race names if the problems in teh DM client are solved by obsideon.

[Rotku]

Thanks Halrin

[ç i p h é r]

BTW, just to note here for those that don't have the patience to read through the entire log, there are a couple of things to explore on this subject that may yet mitigate the meta/DM problem:

1. NWN2 GUIs - explore GUIs to see if we can perhaps fill in the necessary bits of creature information for DMs in the client.
2. Classifications - determine if we can strike a balance using creature classifications in a better or clever way.

I'll have some answers hopefully by the end of the week. Stay tuned.

[ç i p h é r]

Ok, after about a week of poking around the NWN2 UI and trying to figure out North from South, I've managed to confirm that we can indeed create an alternative custom UI for the DM Creator tool to suit our particular needs. I prototyped a very simple version, from XML to GUI scripts, to be certain that it is in fact feasible.

One important caveat is this: whereas the default DM Creator UI can dynamically render the creature list in game (using hard coded functions) according to what's in the module, a custom version like we need wouldn't be dynamic at all. What this means, practically speaking, is that we can't just add a blueprint in the toolset and expect it to show up in the DM creator tool. We'll have to apply those changes to the custom UI as well, at least until the script/gui interaction becomes more sophisticated.

This is both good and bad. It's good because we can filter out ALL non standard blueprints this way to ensure that DMs ONLY spawn ALFA standard creatures. It's bad because we'll have to edit the GUI each time we add or remove blueprints (or edit resrefs). The GUI edits can be mitigated completely with a toolset plugin, however. There are also some interesting permutations that can come out of a custom GUI as well, like group/encounter spawning.

Furthermore, it looks like we can't target the locations of spawns with the mouse pointer. We'll have to use the avatar to place them instead, though it's possible I just haven't figured out a way to incorporate targetting.

Does anyone have any questions about this, particularly those who've acclimated themselves with the DM tools?

The alternative to customizing the GUI, as listed above, would be to devise a better classification scheme than the one prepackaged with the toolset. For example, the creature palette could look like this (more akin to what you see in the Monster Manual):

Blink Dog
+Goblin

• Scout
  Warrior
  Shaman
  Leader

+Human, Male

• Commoner
  Fighter
  Cleric
  Mage

Manticore

- Or by function -

+Animals

• Cat
  Dog
  Blink Dog
  Horse
  Ox

+Scout

• Goblin
  Kobold
  Human
  Elf

+Warrior

• Goblin
  Kobold
  Human
  Elf

+Arcane Spellcaster

• Human
  Elf
  Gnome
  ...

And so on. This is just an illustration of how we might use classifications to perhaps bury some meta information.

Thoughts?

[indio]

Damn that's good work. Excellent news indeed.

[Souvarine]

Being around the blueprints since a while, i guess i'll put my two pennies around (worth more than cents...)
I don't give imput as the "guy who alfabetized the blueprints" but as a player.

With the advent of a better graphic engine, the world we will play in, and the world you guys are building, will most likely be more detailed than what we know of the current alfa iteration.

This is also including much more detail on the different creatures. My vision of things (since i could see those creatures) that with the amount of detail from the graphics we get, players would not even need a word above the creature's head.

In fact, seeing "GNOME FIGHTER MALE" gives two redundant information and a meta one... Gnomes are easily recognised when looked at, but the untrained eyes could possibly confuse one with an halfling or maybe a dwarf, much like a real human could. A human could confuse the types of elves. The MALE part is rather absurd to write in a name, it's not useful for anyone and anyways ...players, especially males, can spot boobs in half a pixel of resolution (girls certainly can do the difference too). The last one is the worst. Showing the class of a particular npc ruins the atmosphere completely. I'd be tempted to think that people are so used to this meta information that they disregard the impact it has.

To give you an idea of the impact: just look at how people behave with other characters...they are scared, they don't know what to expect and they roleplay a good deal more. Now you dms could perhaps get the same reaction by having npc's. (trust me on this, i am an expert at character vs character situations and i know that people roleplay differently)

Imagine a world where you are facing a party of npc's, but the only thing you know is what you can see. It was perhaps not possible with alfa1, but now it is: creatures look like what they are. They really do.

That means we have the opportunity to enhance the immersiveness of alfa, by not handing out cheesy stuff like "hey there is a shaman there!" let's all target him first... and change it into "holy smites that goblin just cast magic!!" That means characters and players will learn the same information, at the same time, rather than allowing players to know beforehand waht to do.

You'll tell me "but...but shamans are typically looking different, my characters should know!", then i tell you yes, indeed they look different...and you can see that on the graphic model. That means you, as a player, will have to actually LOOK at what you face, instead of READ the meta and react according to it. That means you will SEE that one of the goblins has a staff, scars and many trinkets...but is he a sorceror? a shaman? or is he a leader? You'll find out when you'll be fighting him.

Not only that, but people with low spell lore will never know the name of the spells, so magic will be even more mysterious as it should be.

From my perspective, i'd feel far more immersed when i am not scoop-fed the meta information that some of my characters absolutely do not know. Those who know already about the game will often instantly recognise the monsters, but there is no reason for human npc's to have their class tattooed on their forehead.

What is the most immersive comment from a scared character reporting to his master:

"Good Lord! i've seen three drow fighters coming, they also have a priestess and a wizard with its familiar...and they've also got two assassins!!!

"Good Lord! there's drows out there! Three came with long sharp swords and shields...and they were lead by a woman, there was also one that had long robes and a dark staff, could he be a magic user? Lastly, there were two cloaked individuals...lightly armed from what i could tell"

that's assuming the guy actually took the time to look and examine the whole drow party. Add in darkness of the night and then whoa...it looks a whole more dangerous doesn't it? All the guy would have to report would be...there are drows coming!

There is also an added benefit to restrain the amount of meta information as severly as we can: to benefit scouting! Most party traditionally have a scout to go...examine...what is ahead of them. That's exactly what a no-meta naming policy would encourage. Since examining enemies in the midst of a real-time battle is somewhat hard to do (and could be risky), people will start to have need for scouts to do just that -before- the fights.


For DMs, well i am to say this. Currently we just cannot imput CR's into creature names...so dm's will always be screwed no matter how we name the npc's. A Norse Fighter Male could be lvl 3, 5...7...9 or whatever...the DM will only know when he'll have spawned the thing...and if hostile, the pc's will suffer just as much...

If the dm plan his encounter ahead, he'll have time to sort out which critter in the list he needs. So really, the problem comes with random encounters, where he'll be in the blue.

Cypher's idea is pretty good, should dm's accept to change their habbit of searching by race, it could probably solve a bit of of the problem


You guys have a chance to create one of the most immersive world around...i'd ask you, as a player, to consider removing most meta information, leaving only the race (as it is necessary for dms) to be seen when you "mouse-over" an npc. Everything can be looked at in the game now...let's be done with the relics of MUDs.


P.S. Of course, removing the meta will also make the world even harsher than it is...simply because D&D gaming tactics are so dependant on meta (i.e. always kill the healer first...etc, run from Ogre MAGES because they are always higher levels...be afraid of ASSASSINS that come from the back, etc.). But we're in for the mood, the roleplay and the realism, aren't we?

[ç i p h é r]

Thanks for the replies.

I'd still like to hear from others before deciding anything, notably Halrin who pointed out a lot of the DMing concerns in the first place. But I agree with you about meta Souvarine and from what was expressed at the meeting, I think the rest of us feel the same way too. With a custom GUI, we can address both issues - removal of meta from creature names AND displaying detailed creature information on the DM creator tool. We won't have to grovel at Obsidian's crowded developer table to get what we want.

If we go with a custom UI that meets our DMing requirements, is there any reason to put anything in creature names that players can see? We could put everything inside {} for builders to distinguish between creature blueprints at a glance. Players would have to make judgments based strictly on the visual appearance of creatures in-game. We can, of course, also make exceptions in cases where we feel that the creature and/or equipment models are simply insufficient for this purpose.

Anymore thoughts?

p.s. I can create a polished version of the custom DM Creature GUI for evaluation purposes if you folks want to see how it works before reaching a decision. The GUI itself is simply an XML file, which you can drop into your override folder (client side) for testing, but it invokes a few scripts to process the button clicks, which you'll have to stick in the module (server side).

[Rusty]

If a GUI resolves the difficulty in selecting the critter you want, that's great.

If Obsidian do it, that's also great.

If neither work, then DMs need that information in the creature name.

I think the major concern was, all along, allowing DMs to select the creatures they wanted while cutting down on meta. Only where the models insufficiently distinguish different types of creature for players are more detailed names needed.