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Challenge Rating: Should players be able to see it?
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:39 am
by AcadiusLost
So, on an examine, you currently get an idea of the challenge of a given creature. Easy, Challenging, Overpowering, Impossible.
It's meta information that wouldn't be available to your PC at a glance, but we are also limited by the interface (the battle-tattooed orc with polished weapons and seventeen human scalps on his belt kinda looks like "Orc, grunt", especially with names hidden). Also given that ALFA is a permadeath environment, I can see how there might be support for visible challenge as an acceptable trait.
There is a hak out there that hides them though, so we do have the choice (for all servers aside from the OAS2). Thoughts?
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:04 am
by indio
Use it (meaning, use the hak to cover CR). I posted a link a while back, but not sure where.
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:23 am
by Grand Fromage
This is totally out there and probably too much trouble to script, but since we're using standard creatures, would it be possible to keep a running total of how many a player has fought, and after a certain threshold, CR is displayed? Not for a single creature, but say a PC has killed fifty orcs, he now knows about orcs and can tell the difference between a weak and strong one, so he gets CRs for all orcs.
Could also have it set up so you get it by default if you're far enough above the enemy's level. A level six fighter can always tell when something is CR1, for example.
Probably not feasible but it'd be cool. :f
A more workable idea is just to make sure creature descriptions are descriptive enough. You don't see CR unless you examine anyway, so the physical description should be able to give the player a clue of what to expect.
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:24 am
by Rick7475
Well, hold on, is there anyway to edit the text of the CR?
I am not entirely sure we should illiminate it. If there is anyway to avoid stupid deaths in ALFA and avoid discouraging players, I would hope we could do that.
The reason being: yes, player level 1 needs to learn not to solo and get killed, but builders also make mistakes that players pay for when we put in spawns that might be too powerful.
If we leave the CR in, it might save lives and stop some players from quitting out of frustration. And a lot have. They spend time building up their PC only to be killed by a poorly placed spawn that did not look as menacing at first.
The best solution would be if we could edit the wording so as not to be so meta. Is that possible? Instead of "Impossible" we could replace it with "You feel as though you would not succeed in battle" or "Your diety impresses upon you that a meeting may be imminent"
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:47 am
by Thangorn
Lose the CR.. I hate meta table-talk..
You play pnp in my game and quote a CR of a monster before the battle, I take xp off you..
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:57 am
by Rusty
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:39 pm
by Spider Jones
I still think we should use the Sense Motive 'sizing up' variant rule from Complete Adventurer:
Opponent's CR / Assess Opponent Result
4 or more less than your level or HD / A pushover
1, 2, or 3 less than your level or HD / Easy
Equal to you level or HD / A fair fight
Equal to your level or HD plus 1, 2, or 3 / A tough challenge
Exceeds your level or HD by 4 or more / A dire threat
It's a Sense Motive check vs the opponents Bluff check, a success means you get two adjacent categories from the simplified "table" above. A success by 10 or more means you get the specific category. If the Bluff is equal or slightly more than your Sense Motive, you gain no information. If the Bluff exceeds your Sense Motive by 5 or more you may get a false impression, believing your opponent is stronger or weaker than he really is (equal chance of either). If the Bluff exceeds your Sense Motive result by 10 or more, your assessement is off by at least two categories (for example, a dire threat might be assessed as a fair fight).
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:43 pm
by Grand Fromage
I like thut. Makes investment in sense motive and bluff more valuable without a DM, too.
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:55 pm
by AcadiusLost
Also means we'd have to get sense motive into the game sooner, rather than later. Wouldn't it have been nice if Obsidian actually let us load haks before character creation, like they were going to?
In the meantime- do we use the hak or no?
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:35 pm
by indio
Use.
Regardless of what other alternatives are possible, Examine is a meta cheat that we've no place for.
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:41 pm
by Inaubryn
Yep, use the hak. I've hated examine/conning since I played EQ. Still don't like it.
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:12 pm
by ç i p h é r
Is it just a GUI patch or is there something more to the hak?
The "identify" option in the context menu was intended to factor in these kinds of details dynamically, though by using knowledge skills (straight out of the PHB). We can add in the "size up" variant rules to reveal stats like CR. And just as an FYI, the creature heartbeat code you spotted AL was to automate this identification process for the player (primarily for combat purposes).
It might be possible to create a GUI creature template that we fill in based on various factors (like skill checks, experience/reputation, etc), but I don't know for sure if it can be done. The GUI has improved since I last looked at it but we would need to have the ability to pass data back to it to do something like this.
Just some random thoughts.
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:53 pm
by AcadiusLost
Heed's NO CON 2 hak (v1.2) basically alters the "Examine" event for creatures. The only file in the hak is Examine.XML, but it also brings in a serverside script that is needed. This appears to be fine to work in parallel to our "Identify" system- it's active on a separate contextmenu option. All it does is hide the line (displayed in all cases) that gives the color-coded qualitative reading of the creature's challenge level: easy, challenging, overwhelming, impossible, etc).
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:10 pm
by Rusty
The Examine event altered to incorporate a CR-based SM/Bluff check would be neat.
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:18 pm
by AcadiusLost
The Heed's NO CON 2 hak already alters and makes the Examine event dynamic- it would be easier not to tamper further with that, and instead build more on the homegrown "Monster Identifier" right-click option we've already made, which identifies the blank-name ABR critters.
This is all getting rather ahead of ourselves though, since we don't even have Sense Motive skill in the game, nor can we offer it at character creation without forcing everyone to use overrides or some other horridness.