[19:52] * Topic is 'Welcome to ALFA's NWN2 Builders' Channel! || NWN2 Team Meeting: Thursday 13 March, 20:00 GMT '
[20:16] <Rusty> Shame that Rick isn't here, thanks to those who are.
[20:16] <Rusty> Wynna has the first 'announcement'
[20:16] <Rusty> (Which will, largely, frame the rest of our discussions.)
[20:16] <Wynna> April 15 is our targeted Live date for 003
[20:16] <Wynna> That was it.
[20:17] <Wynna> Commentary on whether we can do it?
[20:17] * Curmudgeon whistles and stomps*
[20:17] <Rusty> Admin have discussed this amongst ourselves. From our individual perspectives we all think that it may be possible.
[20:17] <AcadiusLost> To clarify, "Live" in this case basically means, we will maintain the server vault from them on?
[20:17] <Rusty> But clearly there are some hurdles first.
[20:17] <Wynna> Currently the idea is that we go Live with 0AS2 on April 1 and Beta 3 with 003 on the same day, then two weeks later follow up with Live for 003 on the 15th
[20:18] <Rusty> We will maintain the server vault, yes.
[20:18] <Wynna> Yes, AL. Live PCs
[20:18] <Cipher> I think we'll see a few old timers return on the 15th
[20:18] <Rusty> And all Live proscriptions will apply.
[20:18] <Rusty> This requires several things:
[20:18] <Marklos> define proscriptions
[20:18] <Rusty> A server capable of being Live.
[20:18] <Rusty> A server passed for Live.
[20:18] <Rusty> Some DMs.
[20:18] <Rusty> As far as I am concerned, I think that's doable.
[20:19] <Rusty> Marky: say, one PC per player etc
[20:19] <Wynna> I do, too
[20:19] <Marklos> thanks you
[20:19] <Rusty> AL: your thoughts?
[20:19] <Wynna> When do you need 003 for testing, Rusty?
[20:19] <Wynna> Oh, AL first
[20:20] <AcadiusLost> We've got a ton of sytems we'd considered "essential for Live" which are very incomplete
[20:20] <Rusty> http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpbbforum/ ... hp?t=29392
[20:20] <Rusty> Theses.
[20:20] <AcadiusLost> Some we've had to scrap for technical reasons, others have just fallen by the wayside for lack of time and hands to work on them
[20:21] <Wynna> Cipher, looking at that thread, what do you think is necessary/doable?
[20:22] <AcadiusLost> Been a long time since that list has been updated- probably a few we could remove, a few we could add
[20:22] <Cipher> well there are some things we have to compromise, like skills and other content we might have wanted available at char creation
[20:23] <Wynna> Portalling can be worked on while we get the next server ready
[20:23] <AcadiusLost> at the time we wrote that, we weren't planning on a world map
[20:23] <teric> we can live without copper coins, i think
[20:23] <Cipher> but I don't think there's anything that's critical that we don't have.
[20:23] <Marklos> lol
[20:23] <Wynna> 1984?
[20:23] <AcadiusLost> the system as it is can be used, but causes major RP IC/OOC problems
[20:23] <AcadiusLost> 1984 is OK currently
[20:23] <Cipher> we log events now
[20:23] <Wynna> XP/GP rewards is in place with loot tables?
[20:24] <AcadiusLost> The travel system as-is presents a lot of problem
[20:24] <Cipher> in various places...making them generally available to DMs would be the final step
[20:24] <Rusty> ideally, i'd like a web interface for the logs, but that seems way out of our reach
[20:24] <AcadiusLost> there are no loot tables
[20:24] * Marklos raises hand.
[20:24] <Rusty> we need actual items, properly priced, to have loot tables
[20:24] <Rusty> we have the code that generates the values already
[20:24] <Wynna> Yes, Marklos?
[20:24] <AcadiusLost> even if we had those, the script framework for them isn't present
[20:25] <AcadiusLost> only a GP drop clause currently, as a placeholder
[20:25] <Marklos> Brokenbone Pmed me stating his desire to utilize the Luskan Ship Travel system, converting it to NWN2.
[20:25] <teric> gp is fine enough for keeping score
[20:25] <Rusty> How great a demand is linking in a randomised loot drop system?
[20:25] <AcadiusLost> but certainly not ideal for Live
[20:25] <Cipher> can you elaborate on the travel system?
[20:25] <Wynna> It's a cool system, Marklos. If BB can convert it, I'm sure we'll get it added in to the framework somehow.
[20:26] <Rusty> Right
[20:26] <Rusty> Loot drops.
[20:26] <Rusty> We have a placeholder that generates the /value/ of the drop currently
[20:26] <Rusty> And creates GP to that value.
[20:26] <Wynna> So we need two things: Items and Coding
[20:27] <Cipher> yes
[20:27] <Rusty> Most wild spawns (i.e. non DM) are giong to be relatively low CR
[20:27] <Rusty> And consequently relatively low value drops.
[20:27] <Wynna> Rusty, do you have anybody who can create ALFA items?
[20:27] <Cipher> yes
[20:27] <Cipher> mundane stuff
[20:27] <Rusty> We've had ppl make mundane stuff before.
[20:27] <Cipher> we have a lot of such content
[20:27] <Rusty> I know D volunteered to bulk out 003 stores.
[20:27] <Rusty> TT made a lot of mundane adventuring gear as well, all from the PHB.
[20:28] <Cipher> but maybe not enough diversity
[20:28] <Rusty> *nods*
[20:28] <Rusty> But I think we probably have sufficient content to put a system in place.
[20:28] <Wynna> But let's not overload AL. Cipher, can we get it coded without overloading AL?
[20:28] <Cipher> still, we can code a simply lookup table between now and the 15th
[20:28] <Cipher> simple
[20:28] <AcadiusLost> Simple if someone other than me is going to do it
[20:29] <Marklos> lol
[20:29] <Cipher> I just need to hash it out with Rusty in advance
[20:29] <Wynna> Sold
[20:29] <Rusty> I can give you a spec... tomorrow.
[20:29] <Rusty> AL, is there a description oif the current system on the baords?
[20:29] <AcadiusLost> I wouldn't call the loot tables one of the larger concerns I have at present, in any case
[20:29] <Rusty> Nope, but it is a concern.
[20:30] <Wynna> OK
[20:30] <Wynna> I'm just going down the list. What's the biggest priority, AL?
[20:30] <Cipher> it's not critical in any case. not having loot sucks, but it's not a game breaker heh.
[20:31] <Cipher> we've agreed that we will accept skills as is? we've very little choice in the matter in any case
[20:31] <AcadiusLost> hard to "rate" them- I have real concerns about the world map, portalling, population systems, traps, skills are still a concern
[20:31] <Rusty> OK, skills.
[20:31] <teric> world map?
[20:31] <Rusty> The outstanding issue with Skills is that we may in future be able to customise as we wish
[20:31] <Rusty> Just definintely not in the immediate future.
[20:32] <AcadiusLost> But you still want to remove the non-engine skills in the meantime?
[20:32] <Rusty> That leaves us without some skills that would be massively desirable, Sense Motive being one that's key to ALFA style.
[20:32] <Rusty> Not sure what you mean, AL.
[20:32] <AcadiusLost> non-PnP ones, rather
[20:32] <Rusty> Well, it needs to be considered.
[20:32] <AcadiusLost> set trap, taunt, etc
[20:32] <Wynna> While I think that not having skills in at the start may cause some remakes later down the road, I'm afraid that it will be a while before the devs fix it and we can't wait that many months
[20:33] <Rusty> Right, but the question is, do we include skills taht we would/will definitely cut later?
[20:33] <Rusty> Most obvious being Set Trap.
[20:33] <AcadiusLost> Seems to me the only way we can remove skills is if we include a mechanism for giving those points back to the PCs
[20:33] <AcadiusLost> which would need coding
[20:33] <AcadiusLost> a fairly nontrivial amount of coding
[20:34] <Cipher> I think at this juncture it's best to simply make the rules clear and adjust as needed
[20:34] <Rusty> I'm not sure there has to be a mechanical approach.
[20:34] <AcadiusLost> then you've got the question of trap availability as well
[20:34] <Rusty> Right, a clear warning that ALFA won't have PC-settable traps, and Set Trap is not supported...
[20:34] <Wynna> How much trouble do we forsee down the road if we leave all the current skills in and just phase out PCs with them as they succumb to ALFA's death rate after the devs do fix skills?
[20:34] <AcadiusLost> gone from day one? If so the builds need to prepare for that
[20:34] <Cipher> so if players take skill points in Set Trap, they'll have to reallocate on request. max they can get initially is 4 anyway
[20:34] <Rusty> Right.
[20:35] <Cipher> Al, do you know if .tlk changes appear at char creation?
[20:35] <Cipher> I wonder if we could simply change the descriptions on these skills to say "No permitted"
[20:35] <Rusty> Personally, I'd rather we removed the egregiously non-PnP skills (which is really Set Traps; the rest are less brutal) from the get-go.
[20:35] <Cipher> or somesuch
[20:35] <AcadiusLost> I coded reallocation to work with the custom skills already, but it'd have to be completely reworked to function in this context
[20:35] <Wynna> I'm with Cipher on the KISS principal, Rusty
[20:35] <Wynna> Tell them they can't have them
[20:35] <AcadiusLost> custom tlk entries do not read at character creation
[20:35] <AcadiusLost> they might add it if they add hak loading at character creation, might not
[20:35] <Wynna> And if they mistakenly include them, they have to change them
[20:36] <Rusty> Anyone else?
[20:36] <Rusty> Aha, i spy a rick
[20:36] <Rusty> invited
[20:36] * Rick7475 has joined #alfa-builders
[20:36] <AcadiusLost> Are we telling them they can't have them, though? Or should we just leave skills as-is until such time as we can properly transition to custom skills?
[20:36] <Rick7475> Sorry I am late ...
[20:36] <Wynna> I think both, AL
[20:36] <AcadiusLost> seems like the latter is the simplest solution
[20:36] <Wynna> Leave the skills as they are
[20:36] <Rusty> Hi Rick.
[20:36] <Wynna> Tell people they can't use Set Trap
[20:36] <Rusty> No worries.
[20:37] <Wynna> Hi, Rick
[20:37] <Rusty> *nods to Wynna*
[20:37] <Rusty> It's too big a chance to suddenly phase out that skill when we get the ability to add our own.
[20:37] <AcadiusLost> so the "enforcement" is leaving traps out of the game, then?
[20:37] <Cipher> I think we can deal with it. It's not ideal to leave it to DMs but we can deal with it. Hell, we could even check On Login if players have ranks in those skills and alert DMs on the DM Channel or log to the database for now.
[20:37] <Wynna> That sounds good, Cipher
[20:37] <Rusty> Right, seems simple.
[20:38] <Wynna> And, yes, AL. Leave traps out
[20:38] <teric> for pcs?
[20:38] <Wynna> Rick, you weren't here for the big announcement
[20:38] <Wynna> But you and I have PMed about it
[20:38] <AcadiusLost> There's Taunt as well, that one's not tied to store items
[20:38] <Wynna> We're still shooting for April 15 for Live
[20:38] <Marklos> hi rick
[20:38] <Rick7475> Sounds good, I'll be building interiors from now until then
[20:38] <Wynna> And prioritizing the systems that still need work til then
[20:38] <Rusty> Unless there's an easy way to disable it, we'll have to keep Taunt.
[20:38] <Rusty> OK, next point
[20:38] <Curmudgeon> What about Craft Trap?
[20:38] <Rusty> Portalling.
[20:39] <Wynna> Wish Hialmar was here
[20:39] <Rusty> You mean between servers, AL?
[20:39] <AcadiusLost> crafting skills can be worked around by not including crafting components or benches
[20:39] <Rusty> *nods*
[20:39] <Wynna> Oh?
[20:39] * Marklos raises hand.
[20:39] * Wynna refurnishes Silvy Uni
[20:39] <Wynna> Yes, Marklos?
[20:40] <Marklos> We'd need beta servers upregaularly to test portalling.
[20:40] <AcadiusLost> Portalling- yes, between servers. If we don't have Beta (with expendable bics) to work the bugs out of a portalling system, we'll be looking at serious headaches resolving broken/losted/deleted .bic files
[20:40] <Wynna> I still say that Portalling is for testing down the road.
[20:40] <Rusty> WE'd need multiple beta servers to test that.
[20:40] <Wynna> Vital, yes, to a bigger ALFA
[20:40] <Rusty> The way we are developing
[20:40] <Rick7475> How close is the next server? Months?
[20:40] <Rusty> It seems likely that we will ahve one Live serevr
[20:40] <Wynna> But premature right now without multiple servers
[20:40] <Rusty> then perhaps several in Beta at once
[20:40] <Wynna> in Beta
[20:41] <Rusty> Portallnig can be tested between those Beta servesr
[20:41] <Wynna> And that's the time to be testing portalling
[20:41] * Marklos nods.
[20:41] <Wynna> Agree
[20:41] <Cipher> do we want to have the vault run on the same host then for now?
[20:41] <AcadiusLost> It's going to have to
[20:41] <Rusty> For now, yeah.
[20:41] <Rusty> OK, next
[20:41] <Rusty> Population Systems
[20:41] <Cipher> one sec
[20:42] <teric> *Rusty, do we have one server or two, hmm?
[20:42] <Cipher> on the vault
[20:42] * indio has joined #alfa-builders
[20:42] <AcadiusLost> if we don't have some setup for this, we'll have spawns eiher 1) repopulating infinitely, or 2) recharging to full every mod reset
[20:42] <Rusty> Hi indio.
[20:42] <indio> apologies...slept in
[20:42] <AcadiusLost> neither are ideal for avoiding farmability
[20:42] <Rusty> You're fired.
[20:42] <indio> w00t!!
[20:43] <Rusty> Is ciph looking for something on the vault?
[20:43] <Rusty> (How will anyone but ciph know)
[20:43] <Rusty> INdio: we're aiming for Live mid April.
[20:43] <AcadiusLost> probably looking up the population system specs
[20:43] <Cipher> yes. a vaultster app solves the central vault issue we're dealing with, do we all agree? the problem with vaultster is that it hasn't been ported to NWN2 (not even sure if it has to be changed) and that people are "locked in" to servers
[20:44] <Cipher> in the event a server goes down that is
[20:44] <Wynna> Spell that out for me, Cipher
[20:44] <AcadiusLost> it would have to be modified for ALFA's use- I've heard it has been ported for NWNx4/NWN2, but can't find the files so far and haven't received replies via NWNx forums
[20:45] <Rusty> Worst comes to worst, we'll live with manual transfers.
[20:45] <Cipher> we're experiencing problems with netdrive
[20:45] <Rusty> It rly is an issue for when we have multiple beta servers to test with tho.
[20:45] <Cipher> I think Al has said that things seem worse in NWN2 than in NWN1
[20:45] <Rusty> Ciph, did you have anything to add re. Population systems?
[20:45] <AcadiusLost> let's not get bogged down in the vault discussions at this point, if people are satisfied with the idea of letting 003 go live, and then holding any other servers at Beta2/3 until a system is designed, tested, and agreed upon
[20:46] <Rusty> *nods* that's the best approach
[20:46] <indio> agreed
[20:46] <AcadiusLost> that makes it an issue for another time
[20:46] <Cipher> ok. we can discuss it later.
[20:46] <Wynna> Yep
[20:46] <Rusty> Now NWN1 didn't have much of a population system
[20:46] <Rusty> But it was one of the big shiny ideas for NWN2
[20:46] <Cipher> didn't have any, did it?
[20:46] <Rusty> But clearly a custom pop system represents a piece of epic work
[20:46] <Rusty> Well, you could set spawn point respawn times in NESS>
[20:47] <Cipher> scripter lvl 20 with the Endurance feat
[20:47] <AcadiusLost> Exactly- the question is how many of our NWN2-ideals are we going to bin in the name of getting to Live faster
[20:47] <Wynna> I've spotted Baalster lurking these halls recently
[20:47] <teric> (population system being what, exactly?)
[20:47] <Wynna> The only other instance of that critter I know, present company excepted
[20:47] <AcadiusLost> You can still control number of respawns (per reset) and respawn delay, including random elements in ALFA spawns
[20:47] <Rusty> Population system being a way to control the number of creatures that 'live' in a mod
[20:47] <teric> why?
[20:47] <Rusty> So that, say, after the orc spawns in areas 2 & 3 are hammered by PCs
[20:47] <indio> a way to get areas feel populated with NPCs, teric
[20:47] <Wynna> (And, no, I'm not volunteering you Baalster, when you read this log)
[20:48] <Rusty> their population decreases
[20:48] <Rusty> natural ebb and flow
[20:48] <teric> we're not an ecolgy course here, folks
[20:48] <Rusty> so servers automatically respond to PC actions in terms of their NPC population
[20:48] <Wynna> It's more to avoid farming, Teric
[20:48] <Rusty> It has two benefits
[20:48] <Wynna> Or overfilling an area with critters
[20:48] <Rusty> 1. it avoids farming
[20:48] <Rusty> 2. it is more immersive
[20:49] <Rusty> the orc camp isn't .every day. filled with the same orcs
[20:49] <Rusty> if you keep killing them, they will die off
[20:49] <Rick7475> 3. It is too complex to implement at this time
[20:49] <AcadiusLost> Basically, even if we make the number of respawns persistent, DMs will have to restock them periodically if there isn't a system to control their numbers naturally
[20:49] <Rusty> the alternative is simply having DMs change spawns and areas regularly
[20:49] <teric> lord have mercy, don't put the same spawn in the same place, then
[20:49] <Rick7475> That is probably the best way, Rusty, have DM/Builders work the area
[20:49] <indio> that would work
[20:49] <Cipher> or conversely, they will rape and burn and pillage nearby villages if you don't keep them in check!
[20:50] <Rusty> Right, pops would rise.
[20:50] <Marklos> I have to tell you, spawn/respawn is not a problem.
[20:50] <Wynna> Sounds tres cool for future
[20:50] <Rusty> It was quite a big idea.
[20:50] <Rusty> But it just seems way beyond our resources.
[20:50] <Rusty> For teh forseeable futuer as well.
[20:50] <AcadiusLost> We'd like a way to make raiding an orc camp mean something, instead of being a "groundhog day" suspicious farming event
[20:50] <Wynna> Right now, I think we're looking at hands on er...handling
[20:50] <Wynna> On many things to get Live
[20:50] <teric> it's overkill. use an encounter table
[20:50] <Marklos> Can we change NPC names on the fly?
[20:51] <AcadiusLost> yesp
[20:51] <Rick7475> Can we use the logs as we did in NWN1 to determine farming and then as DM/Builders re-pop the area?
[20:51] <Wynna> Sure, Rick.
[20:51] <Rusty> Right, it'll just involve moer hands on DM work
[20:51] <Rusty> And if we get a system at a later date
[20:51] <Rusty> it can be retrofitted.
[20:51] <Wynna> It's a pain, of course, and it'd be nice to learn/build from our NWN experiences
[20:51] <Rick7475> That seems the best way for now
[20:51] <Rusty> It's just one of the big ideas that doesn't seem like it's going to be feasible.
[20:51] <Wynna> But for now, that's how I think we should start
[20:51] <Rusty> Alright next issue
[20:51] <Rusty> World Map
[20:51] <Cipher> agreed
[20:51] <Rusty> Big one, this.
[20:52] <Rick7475> For example ...
[20:52] <AcadiusLost> Let's call it Travel Map for now
[20:52] <Marklos> I don't see builder rework as feasible.
[20:52] <Cipher> as a matter of perspective, how long has Exodus been running a server with all the limitations in NWN2?
[20:52] <Rick7475> There is a troll area south of SM
[20:52] <Cipher> we can deal with it
[20:52] <Rick7475> It'll probably be farmed, but to get it to you need to cross a narrow bridge
[20:52] <Rusty> Travel Map, ok.
[20:52] <Cipher> I don't see why this is necessary
[20:52] <AcadiusLost> Rick- not sure if that area is linked currently
[20:52] <Rick7475> If farming gets out of hand, the trolls burn the bridge until a new one is built heh
[20:53] <indio> would something like this help?
[20:53] <indio> http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Sc ... il&id=1688
[20:53] <Cipher> what happened to the point of interest building initially? what did we call it, hub and grid?
[20:53] <Wynna> Oh, Rick, you weren't here for my mea culpa. I updated the wrong version of 003 yesterday, so the version AL has up right now has some old content in it and lacks some new.
[20:53] <Wynna> I'll fix it.
[20:53] <Rusty> Not following you Ciph?
[20:53] <Marklos> yeah Cipher
[20:53] <Cipher> A travel map.
[20:54] <Wynna> Well, I think we've ended up with that, by default Cipher
[20:54] <Cipher> is it necessary?
[20:54] <Rick7475> Well, the two Silverwood areas are straight forward to liunk, no spawns yet
[20:54] <Wynna> At least on 003
[20:54] <Rusty> Is a Travel Map necessary?
[20:54] <teric> no
[20:54] <AcadiusLost> We're a bit veered off course- currently all our build teams intend to use them
[20:54] <Rusty> We're not talking about a Travel SERVER
[20:54] <Wynna> Travel MAP
[20:54] <Cipher> I believe our goal for live was to limit the scope of our building
[20:54] <Rusty> A Map, BG style.
[20:54] <teric> oh sorry
[20:54] <Marklos> muahaha
[20:54] <Rusty> Which ties into the whole Points of Interest appraoch
[20:54] <AcadiusLost> it presents a number of advantages, but leads to some problems since most of the scripting hasn't been done for it yet
[20:54] <Rusty> Because large scale terrain is shrunk down and only the interesting, er, points done in detail.
[20:55] <Marklos> That is the best option, given WNN2 limitations.
[20:55] <teric> i agree
[20:55] <Rusty> It seems by a long way the best approach, if feasible.
[20:55] <Wynna> Right now, as long as we have a simple way of getting to/from hubs, I'm quite content with the travel map as it stands.
[20:55] <indio> apologies again, but I have to get ready for work
[20:55] <Marklos> Shores of Haldun has a very nice custom Travel Map
[20:55] * indio is now known as indio|busy
[20:55] <Rusty> Didn't Sand develop the basis for our system?
[20:55] <Cipher> got it, rusty. thx
[20:55] <Wynna> There are cool and amazing scripting opportunities for it later, but for now, it functions
[20:55] <AcadiusLost> Rusty: No- sand came up with ideas, but didn't release his code
[20:56] <Rusty> release or realise?
[20:56] <AcadiusLost> Trid asked me to show how it could potentially be done, and has since been using my example resize/speed scripts
[20:56] <teric> which are just fine
[20:56] <Cipher> wait, travel map = world map or travel map = sandermans rendition?
[20:57] <Wynna> Now, Rick has also created (by way of opposing vp) several nice highway areas that can be incorporated further down the road, too, should 003 need a PC scale travel AREA or we determine that travel does not need necessarily to be done by travel MAP
[20:57] <Wynna> Ciph, you should check out 003
[20:57] <AcadiusLost> It's hard to describe in a brief format- it's a scaled representation for travel
[20:57] <Wynna> The travel map is up and basically functional
[20:57] <AcadiusLost> it's functional in only the very most limited sene of the matter
[20:58] <Wynna> It gets PCs from A to B
[20:58] <teric> which is enough, al
[20:58] <Wynna> And that is the very definition of its function
[20:58] <Rick7475> I was thinking of scale map and travel map combined: the travel map for the far away areas like Sundabar and the scale map for closer areas such as the corridor from Rivermoot to Silverymoon, which is all complete and I tested
[20:58] <Wynna> Coolness can wait
[20:58] <Rusty> It really comes down to how long coolness will take.
[20:58] <AcadiusLost> As you get close to areas of interest, you can zone into them at fullscale, yet
[20:58] <teric> coolness can be added later
[20:58] <Rusty> If we can guarantee awesomesauce scripted travel maps by Date X, then we can make that a point to work on.
[20:59] <Rusty> If we can't, then I think we have to leave that in the 'working' file.
[20:59] <Cipher> ok stupid question. would a world map be easier to implement for connecting points of intere? I'm just asking because that *seems* like a lot less work.
[20:59] <Cipher> world map is what the OC uses
[20:59] <Wynna> I think you should grab a look at the map on 003
[20:59] <teric> it's a taste thing, cipher
[20:59] * AcadiusLost feels frustration builing
[20:59] <Wynna> What we have is basically that, isn't it?
[20:59] <Wynna> AL, why?
[21:00] <Rick7475> OK, just a question: why can't we use the 15 travel areas I already made for travel between Rivermoot and Silverymoon?
[21:00] <Wynna> Right now, size and because people will go with the travel map, Rick, for ease and safety
[21:00] <Cipher> I'll take a look, but I can't right now. I also only recenlty purchased MotB so there shouldn't be any hurdles. I hope.
[21:01] <Wynna> But I'd like to have AL vent his frustrations before we move on to that point of maps
[21:01] <AcadiusLost> Those areas nearly double the size of the module and PWC, and have an unfinished "feel", since much of the non-road area is featureless
[21:02] <Cipher> so if our objective is to get a server running in the next 30 days
[21:02] <Rick7475> Now wait ..
[21:02] <AcadiusLost> We can put in selected ones as points of interest along the roadway on the scaled map, but I don't think it's a wise use of resources otherwise
[21:02] <Cipher> what gets us there?
[21:02] <Rick7475> The area's covered by the scale travel is from Rivermoot to Silverymoon, and from High Hold to Quarryvar, that was the area intended for live. Sundarbar and many outlying areas are incomplete anyway
[21:02] <Marklos> question
[21:02] <Wynna> That's an interesting idea, AL. It combines Rick's work and his idea of using both travel map and his scale areas. It's something we should discuss a little later.
[21:03] <Rusty> Marky
[21:03] <Marklos> Should there be a layer choice on whether or not to "you can zone into them at fullscale"
[21:03] <Wynna> The travel map?
[21:03] <Cipher> is this something that is finished just not polished? just trying to understand. maybe I should just listen...
[21:03] <Marklos> as they get closer
[21:03] <Marklos> or force them to
[21:03] <Wynna> Yes, Cipher
[21:03] <Rick7475> When I handed the mod over in Jan, I handed a mod that exclusivly was "Western Silver Marches" Indio added all the areas I took out
[21:04] <Rick7475> My intent for LIVE was Rivermoot to Silverymoon and up to the Moonwood, that all got lost somewhere when I lost control
[21:04] <Rick7475> There was no need for a Travel map
[21:05] <Rick7475> o, befire live, we need to decide what we want
[21:05] <Rusty> Right
[21:05] <Rusty> But ---
[21:05] <Rusty> if there is still nitent to add on places of interest
[21:06] <Rusty> It makes sense to adopt the travel map approach now, even if just for the areas you describe
[21:06] <Rusty> and then add in the additional PoI as they develop
[21:06] <Rick7475> We can have all of Indios area, the outlying ones unfinished, or we can have what I had intented all along. I am good with whatever.
[21:06] <Rusty> Actual road areas, in any significant number, seem to be a bad use of resources
[21:06] <Wynna> I'd be happier to concentrate on your core area, Rick, but WITH a travel map for now.
[21:06] <Rick7475> You haven't seen my road areas
[21:06] <Rusty> It seems best to include just a certain amount of them within the travel map.
[21:06] <Wynna> I like AL's idea
[21:06] <Wynna> Yes, that which Rusty just restated
[21:07] <Rick7475> There are many hooks there for potential dungeons and pojts of interest and some are incredibly scenic
[21:07] <Rusty> *nods*
[21:07] <Rusty> But by taking the best of these and incorporatnig them into the travel map, we get both worlds
[21:07] <Rusty> We don't have to include unfinished areas added by indio
[21:07] <Marklos> oooh, I like the sound of that
[21:07] <Rusty> And we retain the opportunity to seamlessly add new areas if we need to
[21:07] <Wynna> You just tell me which areas to rip out that you consider extraneous, Rick
[21:07] <AcadiusLost> That's the idea
[21:07] <Rusty> While using the stuff that Rick has got up to scratch
[21:08] <Rusty> How does that sound?
[21:08] <Marklos> question :How do PoI show up on a travel map?
[21:08] <Rusty> Essentially we're using all of Rick's work, but within the travel map concept
[21:08] <Wynna> Map pins if they're marked, Marklos
[21:08] <Rick7475> Hey, give me a moment and I'll restate my vision which incorporates a lot of what we are saying:
[21:08] <AcadiusLost> Marklos: they can be visible ATs, or hidden ones
[21:08] <Wynna> They could be secret, too
[21:08] <AcadiusLost> either way
[21:08] <Marklos> ah
[21:09] <Rick7475> OK, from Rivermoot to Silverymoon everything is connected and it takes about 10 minutes to walk it when I tested them all linked.
[21:09] <Rick7475> Now, from High Hold to Moonwood is a 5 minute walk througfh some really beautiful terrain
[21:10] <Rick7475> The northern areas aren't connected, and this is where the travel map can be used as well as any other areas that are finished that we want to connect
[21:10] <Rick7475> Like Mithril Hall
[21:10] <Wynna> The thing is, Rick, specifically on size. The 11 highway areas I exported nearly doubled the mod in size
[21:10] <Wynna> There's not a doubt that they're beautiful
[21:10] <Rick7475> So, it is a combination of both, but the Highways are not long and tedious, and there are points of interest, dungeons, and explorable areas along the way
[21:11] <Wynna> And I would love to incorporate a few of them for their sheer artistry
[21:11] <Rusty> Can't we build them into the Travel Map
[21:11] <Rusty> So the Highways become PoI
[21:11] <Rusty> And players can still walk through them?
[21:11] <Rick7475> We could, but they are all linked, just walk, takes 5 minutes longer, but it is more realistic
[21:11] <AcadiusLost> will mean players can also walk around them though
[21:11] <Wynna> But the travel hooks can also go on the travel map and some of the highways can be a choice to walk on, too.
[21:12] <Rick7475> The mod size can be reduced by removing several of the areas East of Silverymoon pass tthat we can try and add later
[21:12] <Wynna> I'm going to have to go soon, but before I do, I'd like to follow up on Rick's ideas for which towns Indio added can come out.
[21:12] <Wynna> Which specifically, Rick?
[21:12] <Rick7475> Everything EAST of Silverymoon Pass
[21:13] * Dan_bed is now known as danielmn
[21:13] <Wynna> That would save a lot of space.
[21:13] <Rick7475> Keep Silverymoon Pass, but the 15 or so Highway areras add a lot of space
[21:13] <AcadiusLost> Might be easier to evaluate them by how ready/polished they are for Live
[21:13] <Wynna> What about the other direction?
[21:13] <Rusty> OK, clearly there is some detailed discussion that needs to take place on individual areas in the 003 Mod.
[21:13] <AcadiusLost> rather than by geography
[21:14] <Rick7475> I need to show you the map, but basically everything west along the Rauvin River from Silverymoon is in
[21:14] <Wynna> Settlestone and Fourthpeak stay?
[21:14] <AcadiusLost> Should we split the 003-area dicussion into a separate channel?
[21:14] <Rick7475> Yep, they can be linked by the Travel Map
[21:15] <AcadiusLost> There is plenty else to go over
[21:15] <Rick7475> Everything East is not developed
[21:15] <Rick7475> Sure, separate discussion is fine
[21:15] <Rusty> OK
[21:15] <Rusty> AL: that was the last of your specific concerns?
[21:16] <AcadiusLost> not remotely, I'm afraid
[21:16] <Rusty> What else do you haev to raise
[21:16] <AcadiusLost> What about animal companions? Currently summonable out of thin air, resurrectable 1/day
[21:17] <AcadiusLost> we've got none of the sort of scripts and controls on them that we had in NWN1
[21:17] <AcadiusLost> is that acceptable for Live?
[21:17] <Wynna> I'm afraid I've got to go at this juncture. It already feels like a few very important decisions are being made in this meeting and I appreciate the time everybody has given to be here.
[21:17] * Wynna is now known as Wynna-logging
[21:18] <Cipher> bye wynna
[21:18] <AcadiusLost> bye
[21:18] <teric> it's ok with me, al.
[21:18] <teric> a reality check is in order, really
[21:18] <teric> we could be re-writing the game engine for ever, and no-one will be playing
[21:19] <Rusty> How transferable are the NWN1 scripts?
[21:19] <AcadiusLost> good question, I've got zero familiarity with them, and a very uncertain amount of time before April 15th
[21:19] <Cipher> I'm not familiar with them but they will minimally require rework to incoroporate into our framework.
[21:20] <Cipher> ie how they are invoked
[21:20] <Cipher> the question is
[21:20] <Cipher> is this essential for live?
[21:20] <Rusty> It is quite a significant issue.
[21:21] <Cipher> if we can incorporate these controls as refinements over time
[21:21] <Rusty> NWN2 animal companions are tanks to assist PCs.
[21:21] <Rusty> D&D animal companions are not.
[21:21] <teric> file under "this may change in the future" - we lived with it in NWN1
[21:21] <Rusty> We changed it in NWN1.
[21:21] <teric> sure. eventually
[21:21] <indio> wouldn't the easist solution be to smply modfy the stats of the companions?
[21:22] <Rusty> Unfortunately, the only Community Content on companions is to /increase/ their power.
[21:22] <Rusty> *nods*
[21:22] <AcadiusLost> if nothing else, ACs need permadeath
[21:22] <Cipher> or removing the blueprints entirely from the server...?
[21:22] <danielmn> sorry, just got in from work.
[21:22] <AcadiusLost> this is a PW
[21:22] <Rusty> Right, decrease in power and permadeath.
[21:23] <indio> ulias did this in NWN1...made skins wth appropriate stats and added the skins to the AC
[21:23] <AcadiusLost> Can't just respawn your treasured (tank) pal
[21:23] * Cipher casts ressurection
[21:23] <Rusty> They are diff to familiars tho.
[21:23] <Rusty> Druids need pray for 24 hrs continuous to replace a lost AC.
[21:24] <indio> in other words, there's a low-tech solution to this problem
[21:24] <Rusty> The issue thus is more power than replacement.
[21:24] <indio> someone make the skins and then we add them
[21:24] <Cipher> so tweaked stats solves your concerns?
[21:24] <Rusty> But it has huge implications for Dr00d power, so a fix of some kind is good.
[21:24] <Rusty> Right, we'll thread it, compare NWN2 vs D&D stats and see what gives.
[21:24] <Rusty> Next issue.
[21:24] <AcadiusLost> doesn't solve my concerns, but I'm not the DMA
[21:25] <AcadiusLost> HP gain on leveling, then
[21:25] <AcadiusLost> Letosscript makes it possible to have HP rolled
[21:25] <AcadiusLost> rather than max at every level
[21:25] <indio> would love to see the dice roll back
[21:26] <AcadiusLost> could return to our NWN1 format of weighted rolls from 4th onwards
[21:26] <Rusty> The issues with dice rolls are twofold.
[21:26] <AcadiusLost> but we need local bic access and some coding
[21:26] <Rusty> Firstly, it was as easy as hell to avoid it in NWN1.
[21:26] <AcadiusLost> that's minor coding though
[21:26] <AcadiusLost> "avoid it"?
[21:26] <Rusty> Secondly, brutal permadeath PW... few extra HPs... good thing?
[21:27] <Cipher> I mean yes it's a good thing to have a few extra HPs
[21:27] <Rusty> Our survival dynamic is a lot harsher than PnP's.
[21:27] <Rusty> We allow more wealth to help alleviate that.
[21:27] <Rusty> But we also tend to see more combat.
[21:28] <AcadiusLost> maxing HP for the first 3 levels is good for PW, definitely
[21:28] <AcadiusLost> but I'd certainly rather see the weighted rolls outside of that
[21:28] <indio> agreed
[21:28] <Rusty> Rolled HPs isn't somethign I have particularly strong feelings on, tho' I know for many it's important.
[21:28] <Marklos> same here
[21:28] <Cipher> we want it to be challenging...but sucking all the fun out of a game makes it real life. :S
[21:28] <danielmn> yeah, if there is an ability for rolled hp for creatures, rolled hp for PC's is good...however maxed hp creatures + rolled hp PC's = bad.
[21:28] <indio> have a 1/2 max, + 1d4 (whatever modfier is appropriate) for every level
[21:29] <danielmn> and on the creature side?
[21:30] <Rusty> creatures and npcs typically have lower hps/hd than PCs
[21:30] <Rusty> they get stuck with avg
[21:31] <Rusty> How difficult, then, is adding rolled hps after level 3, AL?
[21:32] <AcadiusLost> I don't think that would be onerous- but if we don't have it in place before Live, it becomes something of a race against the highest XP PC
[21:32] <Rusty> we can just cap at 3 till it's in then
[21:32] <AcadiusLost> One more DMA-domain control question
[21:33] <AcadiusLost> Faithlessness/disfavor
[21:33] <Cipher> no rez?
[21:33] <Rick7475> Sorry folks, gotta log, but I'll go over what is in SM and all the areas with Wynna and over the next couple of days we'll have a solution
[21:33] <Rusty> thanks rick
[21:33] <AcadiusLost> If we're going in with Favored Souls, who don't even have to pray for their spells, do we need a DM mechanism to nullify their casting powers?
[21:34] * Rick7475 has quit IRC (Quit: See you later ALFA! )
[21:34] <Rusty> Are you asknig this just with reference to FSouls?
[21:34] <Rusty> or generally with divine classes?
[21:34] <AcadiusLost> Other divine casters as well, I just see it as a particularly poignant issue for FS
[21:35] <Rusty> So the issue is the power of a DM (via wand, say) to put a PC in a state of divine disfavour
[21:35] <AcadiusLost> If you've got a Favored Soul of Eldath butchering people, should they still be able to use spells?
[21:35] <AcadiusLost> Right
[21:35] <AcadiusLost> It's something that's been discussed in Tech, but not implemented yet
[21:36] <Rusty> Currently, we handle situations like that by consent
[21:36] <Rusty> i.e. player falls out of favour with god / loses faith
[21:36] <Rusty> DM tells them spells no lnoger granted
[21:36] <Rusty> they don't cast the spells
[21:36] <teric> that's a valid point, but hopefully a DM would punish that sort of behavour anyway?
[21:36] <danielmn> so would a god.
[21:37] <Rusty> a mechanism to enforce that wd be beneficial
[21:37] <Rusty> but i don't think it's a Live deal breaker, any more than it cripples our nwn1 game now
[21:37] <teric> agreed
[21:37] <AcadiusLost> If "players are trusted to not use abilities if a DM tells them not to" is acceptable for Live, it can be relegated
[21:38] <Rusty> if a DM determines that a PC has fallen foul of their patron, they may withdraw the powers associated
[21:38] <Rusty> well, there is a side issue
[21:38] <Rusty> *spells* can be withdrawn as they are deliberate powers
[21:38] <Rusty> but there are also non-activated powers to consider
[21:38] <Rusty> are save bonuses, dr, whatever divine favour as well?
[21:39] <Rusty> but that sounds like a nasty long canon argument i need to have with myself and anyone who is interested
[21:39] <Cipher> I imagine all class abilities are, sure
[21:39] <AcadiusLost> I'm less concerned with those personally, though ideally those would be nullified as well- just not sure what options we'd have in that regard
[21:39] <Rusty> *nods*
[21:39] <Rusty> we a custom item per PC
[21:39] <Rusty> might be the best route for stuff like that
[21:39] <Rusty> scripted penalties dropped on PC
[21:40] <Rusty> this is not a common occurrence
[21:40] <Rusty> and i don't think it's a deal breaker. PC loses favour; DM decides; PC RPs accordingly.
[21:40] <teric> agreed squared
[21:40] <AcadiusLost> I'd lean towards a persistent DB mark rather than an item in inventory for a few reasons
[21:40] <Rusty> DB even better.
[21:40] <Cipher> PC adopts a new God, powers restored, we move on to the next issue.
[21:40] <Rusty> OK, next issue.
[21:41] <AcadiusLost> OK- how about ECL/LA?
[21:41] <AcadiusLost> do we have any of the discontented folk here?
[21:41] <Cipher> that's still being discussed
[21:41] <Cipher> not any of the real advocates
[21:41] <AcadiusLost> Is it? Haven't seen much real discussion since before Rotku's vote
[21:42] <Rusty> do you maen ECL/LA or PT?
[21:42] <AcadiusLost> ECL/LA
[21:42] <Rusty> What about them?
[21:42] <Cipher> it's an issue that's tangential to the PT issue
[21:42] <Rusty> Right, but what's the ECL/LA issue?
[21:42] <AcadiusLost> I thought we were pretty much set for leaving leveling thresholds where they were and modding combat XP
[21:43] <Rusty> Right, we leave the thresholds as they are
[21:43] <Rusty> And combat XP is calculated from ECL, as it's CL based.
[21:43] <Rusty> Other XP will not be based on CL, so ECL is irrelevant.
[21:44] <Rusty> higher levelling thresholds will make playing LA races difficult. that's the price paid for the extra abilities.
[21:45] <Rusty> it works for PT just as well as any other race.
[21:45] <AcadiusLost> We'd tried to arrive at a way to balance things, to preserve the slower advancement of LA PCs without making them locked into level 1 indefinitely
[21:46] <Rusty> Right, but we ended up with meretricious nonsense.
[21:46] <AcadiusLost> exactly
[21:46] <Rusty> So we'll go with the very simple pay the XP up front system that comes out of the box.
[21:47] <Rusty> In terms of PT, I've seen the basis of Thangs' proposal and it dovetails with part of my proposal.
[21:47] <Rusty> What else, AL?
[21:50] <AcadiusLost> I'd hoped we could have made some headway on the travel map deal, because that's a big one to me- not sure what else I've got off the top of my head
[21:50] <teric> what's the problem?
[21:50] <Rusty> *nods* well we'll see what Rick and Wynna can work out relative to the actual areas
[21:50] <Rusty> Cipher, do you have anything new to raise?
[21:51] <Cipher> we've got a few other things that need to be wrapped up
[21:51] <Rusty> OK, let's go over them.
[21:51] <Cipher> fixes to the death system
[21:51] <AcadiusLost> There is a lot I'd want to see included in the travel map system before Live, but won't have time to code before the 15th
[21:51] <AcadiusLost> There is also the question of the OAS2 and it's Live date
[21:51] <teric> i understand, but you'll have to trust the players a bit
[21:52] <teric> oas roger that
[21:53] <Cipher> storing persistent objects in our database
[21:53] <Rusty> How surmountable are these issues, Cipher?
[21:54] <Rusty> bearing in mind the various other fixes and additions
[21:55] <Cipher> neither are critical issues, the concerns with the death system can be resolved by commenting out a few lines if need be (last resort).
[21:56] <AcadiusLost> what is the problem with the death system- weapon droppage still?
[21:56] <Cipher> that's the concern, yes
[21:56] <AcadiusLost> Thought I'd gotten most things ironed out with it
[21:56] <AcadiusLost> the weapon drop is an easy fix
[21:56] <Cipher> do you have any code changes to commit btw?
[21:57] <Cipher> I'm going to try to make the locations of dropped items persistent before I give up on it. there's also the matter of the context menu (gui)
[21:57] <AcadiusLost> Not specifically, though I'm still not 100% sure all the skills code is purged from the current SVN includes
[21:58] <Rusty> What is the issue with OAS2 Live?
[21:59] <Cipher> which skills in particular?
[21:59] <AcadiusLost> Are we planning to go Live with it at the same time as 003, or before?
[21:59] <Cipher> 15 days earlier
[22:00] <AcadiusLost> then that's even earlier that we need scripted systems in place by
[22:00] <Cipher> OAS is no longer hakless?
[22:01] <AcadiusLost> We added a GUI hak to it months ago
[22:01] <AcadiusLost> same GUI hak the Live servers use
[22:02] <danielmn> On our end, I would like to see a few more statics in place.
[22:02] <danielmn> otherwise, I consider it a finished project except for what AL wants/needs to do.
[22:03] <AcadiusLost> I may be able to help with OAS2 statics, but the April 1st sort of time is also what I'm gunning for with my dissertation
[22:03] <danielmn> AL, I might be able to talk wynna into it.
[22:03] <teric> dan, i'll be doing some statics for the expanded version - i'll share..
[22:03] <Rusty> Much of the stuff we need scripted for Live isn't needed for the OAS tho, is it?
[22:03] * danielmn nods.
[22:03] <Marklos> Do you forseee using the travel map?
[22:04] <danielmn> I'd appreciate that Teric...my scripting knowledge is nill.
[22:04] <teric> i don't think so rusty.
[22:04] <AcadiusLost> Teric has the travel map on his expanded version though, yes?
[22:04] <teric> yes
[22:04] <teric> whole concept falls apart without it, actually
[22:04] <Rusty> so there are some OAS isses, but they are more content related than system related?
[22:05] <teric> yes rusty
[22:05] <teric> unless al sez otherwise
[22:05] <Rusty> Cipher: anything else to bring up?
[22:05] <danielmn> yeah Rusty, I would just like for there to be a bit more static content for the playerbase when the dm's aren't on.
[22:05] <AcadiusLost> I'd actually say most of the issues apply to the OAS2 as well
[22:06] <AcadiusLost> death system there as well, animal companions, traps
[22:06] <Rusty> not sure that they do
[22:06] <Rusty> e.g. AC
[22:06] <Rusty> less important on OAS than Live
[22:06] <Rusty> and if you see a dr00d spawn campaign and resting and suiciding their AC
[22:06] <Rusty> i think that's prolly vaulable info
[22:07] <Rusty> certainly, i'll try and draw up a list of the issues we've highlighted
[22:07] <Rusty> and we can see which would efefct OAS and live and how much
[22:07] <Rusty> and perhaps look to prioritise in that way, where possible
[22:07] <Marklos> So, once Silvy goes live, what is the next server we're working on?
[22:07] <Rusty> but OAS doesn't need to be a clone of Live: the suggestion of ALFA is enough?
[22:07] <Cipher> Moonsea prolly
[22:08] <Rusty> ok. Markos brings up something that I wanted to raise.
[22:08] <teric> i think we'd hoped for more, but a taste will have to do
[22:08] <danielmn> roger that rusty, I think there is enough there to impress without overwhelming.
[22:08] <Rusty> Where we go from here; and, also, what we do getting to the point where we choose where to go from here.
[22:08] <AcadiusLost> Or Teric's, if he's ready to move into the line
[22:08] <Rusty> Currently we have half a dozen other servers in some stage of development.
[22:08] <Rusty> Which, ultimately, has the potentially to really flesh out ALFA.
[22:09] <Rusty> In the very immediate short-term, however - and i'm talking about NOW to APRIL 15 - it's not necessarily to anyone's benefit.
[22:10] <Rusty> So, I raise this, without a great deal of subtlety, to ask ppl to - for the next 32 days - put their own work on pause
[22:10] <Marklos> Got it cap'n
[22:10] <Rusty> And to fill in whatever holes are identified in TSM
[22:10] <Rusty> Even if it means just building two or three interiors
[22:10] <teric> fair enough
[22:10] <Rusty> If we can all pull together for the next month
[22:11] <Rusty> And make sure that 003 is definitely ready for april 15
[22:11] <Rusty> that's not only a huge morale boost
[22:11] <Rusty> But it will also hopefully bring in more and mor einterest to nwn2
[22:11] <danielmn> I'll have HI done within three weeks time....that'll add another 5 interior areas.
[22:11] <Rusty> which in turn will generate interest in the various other servers that are being built
[22:11] <Rusty> How do people feel about that?
[22:12] <Marklos> Need some direction on TSM, though. I've asked a number of times for direction, and building the MH is not going to happen anytime , since Rick said he hasn't intended to build the areas yet.
[22:12] <danielmn> roger, I'll keep pluggin away at it.
[22:12] <Rusty> If I can get Rick and Wynna to give us a defined list of needed interiors / exteriors / fixes ?
[22:12] <Rusty> I think there's an issue with interiors, teric
[22:12] <teric> sure, rusty, will do.
[22:12] <Rusty> Wynna and Rick can work on restrcuting the exteriors to what works best
[22:13] <danielmn> what specifically is the problem with interior areas?
[22:13] <Rusty> That more are needed, danielmn
[22:13] <Marklos> good point
[22:13] <danielmn> workin on it!
[22:13] <Rusty> Anyway, Wynna and Rick are giong to work out a Needed Changes list
[22:13] <Rusty> and we'll get info on needed interiors
[22:13] <Marklos> I can crank out some good, fast interiors.
[22:13] <Rusty> ASAP
[22:13] <Rusty> and then we'll see where ppl can chime in
[22:14] <Rusty> I appreciate that everyone has their own projecst as well, but if we can collectively hurry it to Live, in good shape
[22:14] <Rusty> that will benefit everyone.
[22:14] <Marklos> yup yup yup
[22:14] <Marklos> So, get us that list of interiors and specs ASAP and we'll work on em.
[22:17] <Rusty> alright, ANY OTHER BUSINESS?
[22:18] <AcadiusLost> guess that's it for this round
[22:18] <Rusty> I will get a precis of this up tomorrow, and highlight the various lists that need making.
[22:18] <Rusty> Including getting information on what can be dnoe to assist 003's progress to Live.
[22:19] <danielmn> Rusty...
[22:19] <Rusty> Dan
[22:19] <danielmn> no magical itmes sold correct?
[22:19] <Rusty> no, think that was a misunderstanding
[22:19] <Rusty> we'll take maximum item value in a store from the DMG
[22:20] <Rusty> the point is that as the cheapest +1 longsword is 2,330 gp
[22:20] <Rusty> and players won't have that for several levels
[22:20] <Rusty> we don't have to have a huge selection of different +1s available at Live if we can't
[22:20] <danielmn> understood...
[22:20] <Rusty> but shops can sell them, subject to pricing, the size of the town, etc
[22:20] <danielmn> I will be including some things in my build, will price per conventions.
[22:21] <Rusty> Right, final call: any other business?
[22:21] <Rusty> Anyone have any Qs they need answering?
[22:21] <Rusty> Or info they need and don't have?
[22:22] <Cipher> I think that's it.
[22:22] <Rusty> Thankyou
[22:22] <Rusty> thanks to everyone for turning up