A Land Far Away

Hello,

I'm sure many of you have heard this discussion a hundred times before. Unfortunately the discussion never receives the appropriate attention due to jeers and jests. I hope to once again bring this topic up, as there are some fundamental errors inherent in the bleed system being utilized by ALFA, and in turn, by Exodus.

When your character’s current hit points drop to between -1 and -9 inclusive, he’s dying.

A dying character immediately falls unconscious and can take no actions.

A dying character loses 1 hit point every round. This continues until the character dies or becomes stable (see below).


Stable Characters and Recovery

On the next turn after a character is reduced to between -1 and -9 hit points and on all subsequent turns, roll d% to see whether the dying character becomes stable. He has a 10% chance of becoming stable. If he doesn’t, he loses 1 hit point. (A character who’s unconscious or dying can’t use any special action that changes the initiative count on which his action occurs.)

In this bit of context, in the SRD, and in the 3.5 Players Handbook, there is both 'round' and 'turn' being presented. Now, a round is six seconds, while a turn is 10 rounds. So, obviously it cannot be both. Arguments have been presented in various places, but awhile back i read a correction on this from WoTC that indicated it was supposed to be 'turn.' Unfortunately i am unable to find the information to validate this claim. Nonetheless, on page 145 of the PHB, and on this link (here) of the SRD, both make the same ... confusing ... reference.

Let's move on:

You can keep a dying character from losing any more hit points and make him stable with a DC 15 Heal check.

As well as i understand, Heal checks aren't working in ALFA, or maybe just not in Exodus. So... what do we use?

If any sort of healing cures the dying character of even 1 point of damage, he stops losing hit points and becomes stable.

Remember this, as it becomes important later.

Healing that raises the dying character’s hit points to 0 makes him conscious and disabled.

Remember this as well, also important later.

A character who becomes stable on his own (by making the 10% roll while dying) and who has no one to tend to him still loses hit points, just at a slower rate. He has a 10% chance each hour of becoming conscious. Each time he misses his hourly roll to become conscious, he loses 1 hit point. He also does not recover hit points through natural healing.

Right, so if a PC becomes stable, his bleed checks switch from once a turn (or round, depending on how to interpret the conflicting writings earlier), to once an 'hour' (so, how long is a game hour again?).

If he succeeds in a check, he becomes 'conscious.' This also assumes, without stating, that he is disabled. Conscious and disabled is the same state as if being at 0 hps.

A character with 0 hit points, or one who has negative hit points but has become stable and conscious, is disabled. A disabled character may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can she take full-round actions). She moves at half speed. Taking move actions doesn’t risk further injury, but performing any standard action (or any other action the game master deems strenuous, including some free actions such as casting a quickened spell) deals 1 point of damage after the completion of the act. Unless the action increased the disabled character’s hit points, she is now in negative hit points and dying.

A disabled character with negative hit points recovers hit points naturally if she is being helped. Otherwise, each day she has a 10% chance to start recovering hit points naturally (starting with that day); otherwise, she loses 1 hit point. Once an unaided character starts recovering hit points naturally, she is no longer in danger of losing hit points (even if her current hit points are negative).

Such are not the cases in ALFA's present bleeding system.


The rate, at present, is once per round. If a pc becomes stable, it continues at once per round. If a pc becomes conscious, it continues a check at once per round... and the pc is completely immobile, unable to perform any actions whatsoever, even though he should be able to perform at least basic actions (such as drinking a potion).

Once an unaided character starts recovering hit points naturally, he is no longer in danger of naturally losing hit points (even if his current hit point total is negative).

okay, so...

if brought to negative hps then Status=unstable
...run Immobile
...exit to Bleed

(Bleed)
If status=unstable check once per turn
......if succeed then status=stable
......wait one turn

If status=stable check once per hour
......if succeed then status=conscious and Disabled
......wait one hour

If status=conscious check once per day
......if succeed then heal 1 pt and exit to Heal
......wait one day

Else 1 pt negative energy damage, loop to Bleed


(Immobile) PC unable to move

(Disabled)
Allow basic actions and heavily encumbered movement // as if 0 hps, but still in bleed loop.

(Heal)
once per day, check to heal 1hp // as normal rest check

For those not following what i presented above, this is what the bleed script presently does in the ACR:

• bleed to death or stabilize /// -1 hp per round = check each round ///
  
  if stabilize, bleed to death or go conscious /// -1 hp per round = check each round ///
  
  If conscious, bleed to death or regain hp /// -1 hp per turn = check each turn ///
  
  If at exactly 0 hp, character is conscious, but unable to move at all.
  • State effect: unconscious - immobile and unable to perform 'any' action.
    State effect: conscious - same as unconscious, except player can now be allowed to voice their character if in roleplay.
    State effect: regain hp - character regains one hp, but continues a check each turn for bleed to death

This is what the bleed script is 'supposed' to do:

• bleed to death or stabilize /// bleed is -1 hp per turn (or round) = check each turn (or round) ///
  
  if stabilize, bleed to death or go conscious /// -1 hp per hour = check each hour ///
  
  if conscious, bleed to death or regain hp and stop bleeding /// -1 hp per day = check each day ///
  
  If at exactly 0 hp, character is conscious and able to perform a 'basic' action once per turn. Character is also allowed to voice their character if in roleplay.
  • State effect: unconscious - immobile and unable to perform 'any' action.
    State effect: conscious - character is able to perform a 'basic' action (such as drink potion) once per turn. Player can also now be allowed to voice their character if in roleplay.
    State effect: regain hp - character regains one hp.
    State effect: stop bleeding - Character will no longer receive checks for hp damage.

An even tighter summary?

The biggest broken about the present bleed script is that at 0 hps, or when the character becomes 'conscious' while at a negative hp state, he should still be allowed to perform 'basic' actions. A basic action include, "drinking a potion."

The other big broken is the rate of bleed, and the 'fail' on it progressing to slower bleed rates as your condition improves incrementally.

Tighter?

"Yo Adrian!"

Once stabilized, checks are no longer made every round (change to every turn). However, there are still turn-based checks (for consciousness) and every 2-turn based checks (for natural healing) which can result in the loss of 1 hp on a failure. These alternative sources of bleeding damage may be leading you to believe that checks are still running faster than intended.

Heal checks are allowed through a right-click contextmenu option (Aid) or via use of the infinite uses quickslot-able default "first aid kit" that every PC received upon creation, or with a +2 circumstance bonus when using a MW healer's kit (not to be confused with a NWN2-OC Heal Kit). These checks also incorporate a bonus from the "Self Sufficient" feat. If these are failing to be available or take effect as described, here on in Exodus, they can be looked into further (granted details are supplied). As always, the surefire way to stop bleeding and keep a PC from dying is magical healing of at least 1 HP of damage, whether by scroll, spell, salve, or potion (potions work on other PCs when targeted and not in combat, or when the recipient is unconscious/negative HP).

The PnP bleeding system is very unkind to solo dying PCs. This is true of NWN1-ALFA's system as well. This encourages partying up to adventure, and decreases the frequency of dubious situations in which a stabilized PC is caught in the limbo between life and death, whilst it's player is trying to resist the urge to disseminate meta "hints" which might lead to a timely meta rescue from other players' PCs. Similarly, resolution one way or another tends to be achievable in a single sitting without requiting hours of sitting logged in and waiting to see if rolls will be passed.

re: the "clarification" to 1 HP/turn bleeding rate: as before, I'd be interested to see it, as the sources I've seen all still say 1 HP / round unless one makes the stabilization roll.

The "disabled" status at 0 HP is something we could do more with theoretically, but the death system is already pretty complex logistically without adding in an entire additional state- it would certainly require a lot of additional testing at the minimum, as such I'm not likely to investigate it properly until after we consider high-priority subjects like Custom Skills and character creation.

Hi AL, seems there's still bugs with it. I haven't tested it thoroughly, but when a PC stabilized, he bled as you indicated, except he would lose 2 hps each time (1hp loss, twice in a fraction of a second), and thus died in half the time he should have, with half the chances to recover. Might need to remove the extra hp bleed associated with being stabilized.

Special note: the PC was a Duergar.

AcadiusLost wrote:The PnP bleeding system is very unkind to solo dying PCs. This is true of NWN1-ALFA's system as well.

But that system is slower, so in a group you can get healed. In NWN2, it's too fast, thus punishing small group play, especially at lower levels where healing supplies and skill are limited.

Alright, a more thorough test of the bleed system:

1. initial bleeding rate is now far faster than once per round.
2. once stabilized, bleeding rate changes to once per turn, but character loses 2 hps per turn, instead of 1 hp per turn.
3. once conscious, bleeding rate is still once per turn (should be once per hour... or 6 turns, at the least), and character does not heal... only bleeds to death.

it's worse than before.

No changes have been made to the bleeding code with the recent update, only alterations to death scripts have been to equipment/gear transfer to the corpse objects.

There are three potential sources for 1 HP losses: failing a stabilization check, failing a consciousness check, and failing a natural healing check. Since we're running natural healing checks far more frequently than PnP (which would be 1/day), it is occasionally possible to be hit for 1HP from that alongside the 1HP from failing one of the other checks, which may give the appearance of losing 2HP, or bleeds proceeding faster than 1/round or 1/turn. Succeeding in the natural Healing check, of course, means starting on the actual path to slef-recovery (after which you shouldn't lose any more HP unless re-injured). Moving that check sooner actually increases chance of eventual recovery for PCs who are bleeding out alone.

I have still yet to see these (apparently reproducible) quirks of the bleed system in any of my tests. Are you deriving your experience from the Live Silver Marches module, the live copy of OAS2, Exodus' server, or elsewhere?

The live Silver Marches module. Danielmn was witness to the rapid bleed. Erohares was ingame as well, but not sure if he witnessed any of the bleeding quirks.

In the interest of narrowing this down:

Were there multiple enemies attacking at the time? (possible two hit at the same time to knock into negatives?)

Did the "Death limiter" engage? (the script that averts insta-kills and starts bleeding from -6?) This is common in the cases of large crits.

Were any successful stabilization attempts made with first aid kits?

Did the PC have any active spells or effects that could have granted temporary HP? (Aid, etc).

AcadiusLost wrote: Were there multiple enemies attacking at the time? (possible two hit at the same time to knock into negatives?)

Not in every instance. I recall two instances where there were two or more enemies attacking, one instance in which the dm imposed a single instance of massive damage, and a few instances in which the pc was fighting only one opponent.

In all instances where there were creatures attacking, they stopped as soon as the pc went to negative hps.

Did the "Death limiter" engage? (the script that averts insta-kills and starts bleeding from -6?) This is common in the cases of large crits.

In one instance, yes.

Were any successful stabilization attempts made with first aid kits?

I believe an attempt was made by danielmn although, if he did make the attempt, it was unsuccessful.

Did the PC have any active spells or effects that could have granted temporary HP? (Aid, etc).

no