Pricing helpdesk?

AcadiusLost · Post by **AcadiusLost** » Mon May 12, 2008 9:45 pm

Builders don't seem to have view access to Standards Wiki material on pricing currently. I knew my way around the NWN1-ALFA standards v.9 or so, though I've not kept up with the changes since then, nor the NWN2-revisions.

A few questions:

Cure Minor Wounds scrolls. 0th level spell, so 0 * CL * 25 still gives you "free"! How should they be priced? 25 gp? 12 gp?

Cure Light Wounds scrolls: 1st level spell * CL2 * 25 = 50 gp, same as a correctly priced ALFA cure light wounds potion. Yet, they're class restricted and have failure chances when used with UMD. Should we be cutting the price somewhat for them?

(for scrolls, generally, I've made a handful of abr versions with correct (level * CL * 25) pricing under "ALFA_Scrolls" with names like "Scroll, Cure Serious Wounds", which can be released as an erf later on.)

How about bonus feats on an amulet? Extra Turning is +1 equivalent on a shield, does that mean it can go for 1000 gp on an amulet, or does it need special pricing to compensate for lacking a "base +1 enchantment"?

Deflection AC is a standard affinity for a cloak, but what about a helmet? (Did we keep affinity penalties for NWN2, or trash them for simplicity?).

Finally, seems like the "Protection from Evil, 1/day" property in the toolset is coded as CL1, does that mean a holy symbol of PfE 1/day only needs to cost 360 gp? (1*1*360).

Thanks for your assistance.

Creslyn · Post by **Creslyn** » Mon May 12, 2008 9:57 pm

IIRC, cantrips get a 0.5 modifier for spell level, so 12 would be about right (0.5 * CL * 25).

Holy symbol with PfE pricing looks right.

Rest seems like something for standards.

JaydeMoon · Post by **JaydeMoon** » Mon May 12, 2008 10:04 pm

Keep in mind, I'm only a pseudo-authority on this. Also, I don't have the list right in front of me (it's at home) so I don't have exact numbers for a couple of things. Veilan and BB might be more knowledgeable, but 95% I'm on point here:

1. 0 level spells use .5 instead of 0.

2. Our standards don't support cutting the prices for them for any given reason. However, I believe that single use items with specific class restrictions are priced differently than universally used single use items. So CLW at CL1 should be different if it's a scroll rather than a potion.

3. +# equivalents on weapons and armor are handled differently than on other items. I'd have to look at the list, but if it's available (which it should be) then on non-armor it's available at a set price.

4. Affinity penalties still exist AFAIK? However, AC is an affinity on anything that allows an AC bonus. Maybe Veilan will point out that I'm incorrect on this one?

5. If it's coded as CL 1, then 1/day should go for 360.

indio · Post by **indio** » Mon May 12, 2008 11:09 pm

I'd like to second the Pricing Help Desk idea. If I could simply post the item details here and have someone with a mathematical mind give me a price, that would remove a headache for me.

JaydeMoon · Post by **JaydeMoon** » Mon May 12, 2008 11:14 pm

I'm happy to price out anything you need. Just shoot me a PM.

As I said in the other thread, we could probably use the NWN1 Help Desk forum for now.

Brokenbone · Post by **Brokenbone** » Tue May 13, 2008 1:44 am

I am echoing Jaydemoon here, but here we go:

(1) Cantrips are half as expensive as Level 1 spells on a scroll. 12.5gp. Consistent with DMG, SRD, or wherever else you'd normally see those calculations.

(2) CLW Scroll at CL2 does 1d8+2, 50gp. CLW Potion at CL1 does 1d8+1, should also be 50gp. If ALFA's CLW potions happen to exist at CL2 give 1d8+2 and we're only electing to price at 50gp for accessibility, enjoy the bargain I guess. I doubt anyone'd suggest jacking them up to 100gp a pop. Maybe we do not have the ability at present to do CL1 CLW potions? Dynamic CLs for magic items eventually got put into NWN1 haks by Zelknolf, if those ever want / need to be investigated.

(3) Bonus feats, there's a chart of "what ones can go on what items" in both v9 and v10 pricing documents. If asking about "Extra Turning" only, guess that's a 7500gp property if tacked onto Rings, Amulets/Holy Symbols... or a +1.0 equivalent plus if found on Armor, such as a big old shield. Note bonus feats can get really expensive, fast (10K gloves of ambidextry, 5K helm of alertness, etc.)

(4) Affinity penalties still exist, but I wish they didn't. Yes, they also exist in the DMG, SRD, etc., i.e., they're a part of Dungeons and Dragons, but there's so many ambiguous descriptions, it's just ugly. A helm would typically have "mental improvement, or ranged attacks" affinity, as opposed to a cloak with its "transformation, protection" affinity, so just as a cloak that made a PC smarter (+INT?) would get a +50% price, so too might headwear that protected against, well, more than just ranged attacks (i.e., AC goes up vs. all attacks).

(5) The holy symbol that does a spell effect raises a little decision tree thingy, seen in both v9 and v10, and possibly prior. You must've gone through it to identify that as a wondrous item (use/day), and assuming the item takes up a slot, such as the neck, we're talking 360gp.

If the item is "no slot", like an ioun stone or a lucky rabbit's foot (or anything else which doesn't take up valuable body slot real estate), it's +100%, or 720gp. This "double if no slot" thing has been around for a couple of versions of the pricing documents, I only mention it since I am not 100% sure what's meant by Holy Symbol in this context (necklace? holdable? something else?)

JaydeMoon · Post by **JaydeMoon** » Tue May 13, 2008 1:51 am

Wouldn't (or couldn't) an item that 'casts' but doesn't take up a body slot be considered either a Rod or a Wand, depending on class restrictions and barring other properties?

That the 100% mark up for non-slotted items is for stuff that's "on"? Like a Str+2 item?

Brokenbone · Post by **Brokenbone** » Tue May 13, 2008 2:10 am

The +100% is for use/day items that take up no slot.

Charged items thankfully, are exempt. This protects items like wands that have charges, but also all kinds of weird wondrous items like say, a gem of brightness (50 charges, varied light effects), someone-or-other's wondrous balm, which has something like 5 uses of your choice of remove disease, CLW, or neutralize poison, or pretty much anything else a creative DM might come up with. Example: Shoepolish with 50 charges of Expeditious Retreat, would not be subject to a "slotless" penalty. Shoerag which let you do Expeditious Retreat daily, would be.

EDIT: sorry, I think I missed the "stuff that is on" point as well. Hasn't been a consideration in NWN1, since we didn't have slotless, constant on, buffers... other than Ioun Stones. NWN2 may have some slightly different considerations, since "Shard" items were introduced by Obsidian, Veilan may have more to say about that. I don't really know how those are proposed to be handled.

AcadiusLost · Post by **AcadiusLost** » Tue May 13, 2008 6:14 am

The holy symbols mentioned were necklace-slot equipables. I haven't tested to confirm if their use is restricted when not equipped by the engine, presumably it is. So a bonus turning holy symbol would be 7500, useful to know- 1,000 gp seemed a little cheap for a bonus feat, makes more sense like this (on an armor/shield/weapon it would need to be on top of a +1 or more, meaning 4-8k range. Still slightly odd to have extra turning cheaper (and with a free +1 AC) on a shield than something natural like, oh, a holy symbol- but I understand the math just works out that way sometimes, and situational exceptions make the standards a minefield down the line.

So, getting back to the examples, a +1 AC deflection helm would be +50% affinity for 3,000+base price (2 gp?) Seems steep with a helm intuitively being armor for your vital organ, and deflection AC jumping from the 1k NWN1 range to the 2k NWN2 one (might have remembered that one wrong), but I'm certainly more concerned with making the items standards-kosher than quibbling on prices. In my 3-odd years of NWN1 playing, never bought an item from a merchant for more than 1200 or so, but I did play a fairly penniless PC for most of that time.

I'll likely have some more questions for you guys tomorrow, thanks for the advice so far.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Tue May 13, 2008 10:39 am

We do have a helpdesk... *tinkers with forums* http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpbbforum/ ... .php?f=135

I've been waiting on the phpBB3 transmission before going into any large scale re-organisation of DM boards, but perhaps it is worth going into now.

Let me see what I can do about permissions; certainly as it stands, anyone with DMftp access can get themselves a word .doc, and any DM can see the Standards forum. Can add SH to that.

AL: Armor AC is base 1k; Deflection, 2k; Natural, 2.5k. Your helm pricing is correct.

More broadly, as I told D, I'll have time this week to kick of the fun and games of standards training for TSM2 people.

AcadiusLost · Post by **AcadiusLost** » Tue May 13, 2008 4:25 pm

Rusty wrote:We do have a helpdesk... *tinkers with forums* http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpbbforum/ ... .php?f=135

And I still get a "topic does not exist" on that one. I know I could see (but not post to) the Standards forum, but not the helpdesk one.

Also, the quick reference Alara sent me had both Deflection and Nat. Armor at 2000, dodge at 2,500. So... which is it for Natural Armor? 2,000 or 2,500?

Last question (for now), which helm pricing am I right on, the 2,002 or the 3,003? +50% price for "it's just not thematically correct for that helmet to protect your head"?

psycho_leo · Post by **psycho_leo** » Tue May 13, 2008 4:45 pm

AcadiusLost wrote: Also, the quick reference Alara sent me had both Deflection and Nat. Armor at 2000, dodge at 2,500. So... which is it for Natural Armor? 2,000 or 2,500?

Last version of pricing docs I had acess to put Armor AC at 1k, Deflection/Natural at 2k and dodge at 2.5k.

JaydeMoon · Post by **JaydeMoon** » Tue May 13, 2008 4:55 pm

Also, remember that the affinity penalty only applies to the price of the property, not to the whole item price.

So not 2002 or 3003, but 2002 or 3002.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Tue May 13, 2008 9:58 pm

Also, the quick reference Alara sent me had both Deflection and Nat. Armor at 2000, dodge at 2,500.

Quite. I can't read.

A helm +1 AC would be 3,000 GP

AcadiusLost · Post by **AcadiusLost** » Thu May 15, 2008 6:57 pm

Here's another one:

What about bonus feats that aren't priced on existing sheets? Looking at a few holy symbols which are set up for the following:

Bonus Feat: Divine Shield

As I recall, that's a protective activatable ability which draws from the user's pool of remaining Turn Undead attempts. As a protective ability, it would have proper affinity for the neck slot, but without listing in the standards, I'd presume it to be a banned property (at least until/unless it gets priced).

Might it be on par with Extra Turning, for 7,500 on an item, +1 equivalent on a shield/armor?

Would also appreciate a pointer to up-to-date info on pricing and properties for special material masterwork armor and shields, since Ironshield Armory had quite a few of those IIRC.