Kestenvarn wrote:Some pretty heavy trolling in this thread, seemingly begun by Mayhem and his bizarre "rogues are not assassins lol" comment.
So are minor traps being implemented or not?
That wasn't trolling.
Bilbo Baggins was hired as a burglar, not to set several 10D6 spike traps over the entrance to Smaug's cave.
It was, whether or not you recognize/admit it. That Bilbo nonsense is close enough itself.
PS. I don't recall threads spammed with image macros and catchphrases last time I was here... have the boards changed that much, then? Or is this thread just unusual?
Last edited by Kest on Tue May 13, 2008 5:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kestenvarn wrote:Some pretty heavy trolling in this thread, seemingly begun by Mayhem and his bizarre "rogues are not assassins lol" comment.
So are minor traps being implemented or not?
That wasn't trolling.
Bilbo Baggins was hired as a burglar, not to set several 10D6 spike traps over the entrance to Smaug's cave.
It was, whether or not you recognize/admit it. That Bilbo nonsense is close enough itself.
PS. I don't recall threads spammed with image macros and catchphrases last time I was here... have the boards changed that much, then? Or is this thread just unusual?
My posts were on topic. Perhaps overly snarky, but they reflect my opinion that rogues do not need traps to make them playable, especially if the use of traps is to let them go solo-killing.
How then, were they spam? Unless, of course, your definition of spam is "people posting something I don't agree with?".
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AcadiusLost wrote:My instinct would be that traps encounted ingame (DM placed) are meant to represent PnP-style traps (built over days or weeks by goblin slave labor, etc), so any recovery of said traps would be OOC, and the resultant trap kit turned in to a DM or trashbinned. It'd be a DMA or HDM call how to treat them in the interim, though. Safest bet as a player is to disable traps encountered rather than attempting recovery.
Even the playground. If players dont have acces to it neither should npc's so to say especially if the traps are really expensive and hard to place etc.. One would see traps a lot less being used then we did in nwn1 then for that would make sense.
So i would like to see Dm's not be very liberal with placing huge amounts of traps in a hideout or dungeon especially the fireball traps or electryc ones would be very rare and not likely found in an orcs or goblins lair..
just my opinion
Witch
current character: Denna Shota
"Soldiers never sleep"
I'm right there with witch. NWN1 traps were just a cheesy way to bleed a party who was too tough to bleed with warmup monsters.
Unlike Mulu, I'm not remotely convinced that this is about anyone unwilling to admit they're wrong. I still believe, very strongly, that traps should be limited in scope (quantity, damage, density) to limit the "point damage" potential of a rogue.
There was a similar concept discussed a long time back, and I used the ad hoc term "spectacularity," which is that in general there's a devaluing of total damage compared with the ability to do massive singular damage. That is, something which does 5 dmg to 10 targets is valued less than something doing 10 damage to 5 targets, which in turn is valued less than something doing 50 damage to 1 target. Rather than look at total damage, the capacity to focus damage onto a limited number of sources, whether by space or time, is a key and powerful ability. That's why multiple PCs gang up on a single foe - because one with 1 hp can still whomp you with a massive crit the same as one at full health.
NWN1 traps reflect that problem between overlapping, sheer damage potential, and lag. Until that's solved, NWN1 traps are simply not ready for prime time. The mere lack of the disguise skill and other rogue "limitations" are not even in the same time zone as point-damage potential.
I also strongly feel from a consistency standpoint that ad-hoc traps above say 2d6 in damage potential (to a single target) should involve permanent magic of some type - or specially developed low-duration spells. One of the reasons I advocated something like a "component" trap building idea would be that you could create limited duration magical traps with them. Say a 3d-level spell, like fireball, which was instead (CL)d4, lasted 1 hr + 1 hr/2 lvls, topped out at 8d4, and created a little temporary "damage" trap component that a rogue could combine with other things.
I think you could turn traps into interesting tactical elements while still adhering to the basics of the rate equations pervading the d20 system. It just can't be done off the base toolset without using a really limited system like no-greater-than-minor, no-fire-and-elec.
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Any spellcaster can out do a rogue of the same level on damage output, both single point and group, and with the spells glyph of warding and delayed blast fireball can do exactly the "trap, lure, kill" scenario given for rogues. I wonder how much UMD is required to cast those spells from a scroll? I have often used area spells like grease to lure a bunch of monsters, make them fall, and kill them with arrows. That's a first level spell. Stinking cloud works even better. I've killed lots of orcs with my sleep spell, including a named one that otherwise tends to cause a lot of damage. Spells are free and replenishable, so I just don't see how heavy traps that do less damage and can blow up in your face = exploiting the AI if casting spells on the ground doesn't. All combat exploits the AI to some extent, and some tactics work even against DM possessed monsters. Nothing has more "spectacularity" than spells.
But really using deadly fire traps as the reasoning behind banning minor and average spike and entangle traps is retarded. Retarded. It doesn't add to the discussion at all.
I agree with Witch though that the attitude of "OMG traps cost thousands and gold and take weeks of expert labor to install" means they should be largely absent from the world, including absent from hostile areas. Dwarven citidels and Netherese crypts would be about the only place you would ever find them, especially ones that do elemental damage, if you're going to take that attitude. Humanoid tribes are poor and not terribly skilled.
Do realize it has already been established in game as ALFA NWN2 canon that barbarians can trap a corpse on the road in a very short time.
Last edited by Mulu on Tue May 13, 2008 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mayhem wrote:My posts were on topic. Perhaps overly snarky, but they reflect my opinion that rogues do not need traps to make them playable, especially if the use of traps is to let them go solo-killing.
And what exactly is *wrong* with rogues or rangers going solo-killing? Isn't that exactly what especially a Ranger would tend to do? Isn't that basically part of their class purpose? Since when is it bad to play D&D here? The rewards for hunting are awfully low....
This whole thread is an over-reaction to a very small and limited problem. Deadly traps should be totally out and I doubt there would be many complaints about it. The bleed cost of buying or crafting traps limits their use straight out of the gate, especially on a low income world like ALFA. Add in that their consumables with a fail chance and I just don't see the logic behind pulling them outright. On most adventures my old toon went on with a group, the split loot at the end never covered the cost of the traps used while others used their profits to buy healing pots or upgrade their kit. Anything beyond average tangle and spike traps were saved for life and death situations while casters can blast away at no cost every time they had a nap.
Just control what can be bought, what NPCs can drop and what gets placed in-game by DMs that might be recoverable. Perhaps give all strong traps the need to be crafted so there is a component cost as well... though I have no idea if we'll ever have crafting.
Kate
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MorbidKate wrote:This whole thread is an over-reaction to a very small and limited problem. Deadly traps should be totally out and I doubt there would be many complaints about it. The bleed cost of buying or crafting traps limits their use straight out of the gate, especially on a low income world like ALFA. Add in that their consumables with a fail chance and I just don't see the logic behind pulling them outright. On most adventures my old toon went on with a group, the split loot at the end never covered the cost of the traps used while others used their profits to buy healing pots or upgrade their kit. Anything beyond average tangle and spike traps were saved for life and death situations while casters can blast away at no cost every time they had a nap.
Just control what can be bought, what NPCs can drop and what gets placed in-game by DMs that might be recoverable. Perhaps give all strong traps the need to be crafted so there is a component cost as well... though I have no idea if we'll ever have crafting.
There's a supply run quest where you have to carry a 100 lb box of supplies to various destinations. A 100 lb box of supplies throws pretty much every PC into encumbrance movement.
So, if traps weighed 20 lbs each, then at 5 traps a rogue/ranger PC would be encumbered. Being encumbered = bad in combat situations, so realistically a rogue or ranger would only be able to safely carry THREE traps at 20 lbs each. And if that isn't enough nerfing, we need to just go play the Sims and forget about all this heroic fantasy stuff, since the Admin would prefer all PC's to spend their time drinking in taverns and cyboring.
witch wrote:So i would like to see Dm's not be very liberal with placing huge amounts of traps in a hideout or dungeon especially the fireball traps or electryc ones would be very rare and not likely found in an orcs or goblins lair..
Certainly, I'd recommend DMs not making liberal use of traps. However, lairs/dungeons are about the only place where complex traps do make sense. Those are the only places where denizens may realistically have had the time and resources to install major, PnP-style traps. The trapped dungeon is a staple of the D&D mythos, and one of the scenarios that most values the rogue and his/her unique skillset (search, disable device, evasion, high reflex save, trap sense etc).
As I understand it, insta-traps aren't supposed to exist in our (NWN2-based) gameworld. It's a learning/adaption curve for players and DMs alike, so mistakes can and will be made- a single instance of a barbarian NPC suddenly setting up a NWN1-style trap does not necessitate rewriting ALFA policy by any means. Just means someone needs a nudge towards the traps threads.
I would still like to account for simple entangle/limited spike traps, but there would be legitimate discussions that will need to occur with regards to what skill to tie them into (rope use still sounds logical to me)- this will be a matter for another patch though, since we haven't got stable access to custom skills yet.
To get the thread to 10, and give a list of point-counterpoint/problem-solution:
Increase trap weight to 10 or 20: limits number of traps a single character can carry, especially in a world without bags of holding
Trap setting requires a d20 roll every time: default mechanic in nwn2
Traps setting carries risk: traps blow up in the setter's face if they fail the dc by more than 5 (nwn2 default behavior).
Increase trap set time: cannot spam an area with traps, especially while being pursued
Traps can be layered: no easy fix
NWN2 AI is stupid and run through traps if lured: So do PCs.
Traps do omg dmg: increased damage means increased dc which means greatly increased risk to the trap setter.
(some) Traps do elemental damage: disallow/limit elemental traps.
Traps are cheap bonus damage: increase trap cost (and then balance scroll cost and weapon cost and alchemy cost)
Most of the community who want traps would be happy with average traps, even if it were only spike and tangle traps, though with alchemy available acid, fire, and gas traps aren't unlikely. Let my ranger craft and set minor/average spike and tangle, even with above limitations set on weight and time and I'm plenty happy.
The function of the imagination is not to make strange things settled, so much as to make settled things strange. -G.K. Chesterton,
TSM2 - Hyacinthe, Wild Elf Scout, Hunter, and Trapper.
Actually possible this will be fixable in the next patch, as there are new script functions that are supposed to let you loop through layers of triggers/areas of effect on a point. Question would be, if they work for this- if you have 3 overlapping traps, and they shouldn't stack, how do you decide which does take effect?
In that case I'd rule LIFO - Last In First Out, if you can tell which layer is top-most. It would be best if it could be scripted to disallow setting a trap in an area if there is overlap with another trap trigger, but it does really suck that you can't customize the trigger area (unless that could be scripted too)
The function of the imagination is not to make strange things settled, so much as to make settled things strange. -G.K. Chesterton,
TSM2 - Hyacinthe, Wild Elf Scout, Hunter, and Trapper.
