Rotku wrote:
And no, it's not a bad noob post. Like I mentioned before, back in our NWN1 days there was a DM team who did something just like this - so clearly you're' not the only one who feels this way.
As for me, I think PC deaths/retirements are good - it helps keep things fresh. If anything, we need to increase the rate of high level PC deaths. As a DM, I just don't find things as fun when dealing with high level, well-established PCs - much prefer the low-to-mid level range. And as a player I'm the same. I get bored with PCs too quickly to stick with one into the high levels. You should see the DM Hit list we've got in the DM forums - listed all PCs who make it above a certain point and every time a DM manages to knock one of them off, they get an extra little star next to their name.
Oh, and I'll tell you, as Player Admin, the majority of trouble I've had to deal with has come from cases where people have become too attached to their PCs.
What's wrong with you people? how come you keep failing to kill Lemuel then?
Seriously, i am with you, and likely in minority as well.
I think game is much more fun between levels 3-7 than higher levels, i also think that slow down leveling has lot of positive sides. I also think that powerful magical items , resurrections and other stuff of that kind should be rare or near impossible to get.
All that assuming that it would be game policy that will be enforced on everyone.
To respond to some of the above comments and explain further my comments on the OOC nature of the suggestion, I think this is OOC because it tends to equate a raise dead to a respawn. A raise dead is not a respawn button. IMO it is a serious religious act with consequences for those who seek it and for the PC raised. Death, and being raised from it, should have a profound effect on any PC, to be RPd by the player accordingly. It certainly is IC to be concerned about your safety and prolonging your life as an adventurer, but to think ahead to raising yourself back from death (and hence taking you back to this plane of existence and away from your deity in the afterlife) is something that IMO many people just would not think to do, unless they were really afraid of what might be waiting for them in the afterlife (i.e. punishment, damnation). I don't think it compares to Lichdom, as most people would probably think that is an abberation as well since it is seeking undeath.
Anyway, this is just my view and it is NOT a noob post, Lokan. Keep thinking and posting your ideas. As far as levels, I have advocated a level 2 or 3 starting level and am very opposed to any level cap. You don't need caps if DMs are willing to drastically increase the challenges as PC's progress to higher level. As long as players accept that with greater power comes the possibility of increasingly powerful villains and a higher percentage of PC death, then I say let people level up. Part of the fun of this game is progressing in levels and might. Going out in a "blaze of glory" or infamy, can be really fun and memorable. I agree with Rotku however, that the higher in level one gets the more attached you get to the PC (at least for some) which can lead to drama on PC death. You need a compact of sorts between the players and the DM team to make this work. I assume players want increasing challenges and don't "play to win" so to speak. But again, just my opinion.
I've a fair bit to say on the issue, but don't have time to get into a full explanation at the moment, may post more verbosely later. A few corrections/clarifications, though:
-If the NWN1-ALFA Northern Cormyr server ever had a "system like this" (life/rez insurance), all traces of it were long gone by late 2004/early 2005: I was continuously involved in the management of that server from then till it went dark in one context or another, and I never heard anything of the sort.
-Material components (diamonds of sufficient value) have always been a part of IC raise dead/resurrection spells in ALFA across the same time period (late 2004+), as long as I've been affiliated with ALFA. The intention has been to make returning from the dead a rare and profound effect, rather than a frequent or automatic measure. I believe this is in keeping with the nature of the setting; though such spells do exist in FR, examples of them being used in FR literature are exceedingly rare. With regard to the NWN2 iteration of ALFA; the technical requirement for a sufficiently-priced diamond in a PC caster's inventory had not yet been implemented, but will once again be in place with the next hak update.
-There is not, nor has there been, any attempt to keep high level cleric NPCs out of the Silver Marches module. As is fitting by canon for the region, nearly every major temple has an NPC cleric of 9th level or higher. What is actually lacking are scripted conversation options that allow PCs to have a comrade raised from the dead by simply clicking through a menu and paying the associated fee. I personally feel such scripted means undercut the RP and IC significance of such a measure or proceeding; I would like to think some real consideration occurs on the part of the NPC priest before a raise dead is agreed to; imagine the case of a Tyrran high priest who inadvertently brings back a criminal who goes on to commit more crimes, or other such conflicts. I certainly wouldn't want to see it become a straightforward ATM-style transaction.
We do get attached to our PCs; to some extent it is inevitable. But I would say it is important to consider the character and its story arc independently of our own investment and motivations. Any given character's story will tend to have a beginning and an ending; the ending isn't always going to be a heroic or happy one. Seldom in fantasy literature do you see the hero slip out the back alone to go battle orcs for "practice and profit" or out of boredom; these tend to be times when our boredom as players, or desires to see our PC's stats built up, override the motivations of the character itself (who wouldn't be aware of how many XP are needed till next level, etc). While a PC death, especially one that feels pointless, makes us want to seek any means available to reverse matters and carry on as before, the character itself has had some resolution, and, assuming it had a patron, would presumably be satisfied in an afterlife of some sort. Allowing that story arc to end, and beginning a new one, helps to develop that sense of perspective and divorce the OOC player motivations from the IC PC ones.
AcadiusLost wrote:-If the NWN1-ALFA Northern Cormyr server ever had a "system like this" (life/rez insurance), all traces of it were long gone by late 2004/early 2005: I was continuously involved in the management of that server from then till it went dark in one context or another, and I never heard anything of the sort.
I might be wrong about NC. There was definitely one server. NC is the one that jumps to mind, but it might as well been another.
AcadiusLost wrote:
-Material components (diamonds of sufficient value) have always been a part of IC raise dead/resurrection spells in ALFA across the same time period (late 2004+), as long as I've been affiliated with ALFA. The intention has been to make returning from the dead a rare and profound effect, rather than a frequent or automatic measure. I believe this is in keeping with the nature of the setting; though such spells do exist in FR, examples of them being used in FR literature are exceedingly rare.
-.
I guess I have to a counter view of this. Raise Dead scrolls were commercially available "off the shelf" on the servers I played in ALFA NWN1 (and I didn't join until mid -2005). This includes both TLR and WD iirc. They could be cast (and were) by any PC with Cleric levels. This was done at least twice in my PC's presence.
Edit: And as an additional...I think Faenor Bital rezzed a dwarf on TLR and I don;t recal any diamond involved there.......but my memory is more fuzzy on that one.
Material components (diamonds of sufficient value) have always been a part of IC raise dead/resurrection spells in ALFA across the same time period (late 2004+), as long as I've been affiliated with ALFA. The intention has been to make returning from the dead a rare and profound effect, rather than a frequent or automatic measure. I believe this is in keeping with the nature of the setting; though such spells do exist in FR, examples of them being used in FR literature are exceedingly rare. With regard to the NWN2 iteration of ALFA; the technical requirement for a sufficiently-priced diamond in a PC caster's inventory had not yet been implemented, but will once again be in place with the next hak update.
I understand where someone who has worked very hard to get their character to be a high enough level to cast "Raise Dead", might be upset with the charge of 5K for the diamonds still. However, you have to keep circumstances fair in reguards to how the servers have been conducted. For BG, whenever there is an IG rez., the players still have to pull 5000gp out of their arses' for the clerics (i'll usually give a small discount if the person paying is a devoted member of the church). Why would the PC be exempt from such circumstances?
I do get the conflict, but its one of those issues you have to conduct for both IG reasons, and to keep it fair for other players who don't have a PC ally who can rez.
“My movies were the kind they show in prisons and airplanes, because nobody can leave.”
I don't have any issue with forking out 5k. I think the raise dead scrolls on TLR /WD were 3k off the shelf.
The issue would arise if diamonds were determined to be a mandatory scripted material component and then were subsequently also made unavailable for purchase. That would make the casting of Raise Dead defacto a DM only spell.
If that's the ALFA that everyone wants to create, fine. However, it certainly is not the AFLA in which I've been playing the last 4 years. Raise Dead has been a spell cast by PC clerics and used with some frequency.
There is no conflict nor, from my perspective, any intrinsic lack of fairness in the standard remaining the same.
I am iffy on the availability issue of diamonds. I also think they should be used with the spell, but am objectionable as to how available they should be....as in, I don't want to see them available for sale in stores. I would definately like for them to be available for those that do actively seek them though.
The reasoning behind this is of mining economics. I know we are dealing with a fantasy world, but I believe the underlying principle of wealth mirrors that of our own...
as in to say, Mithril is not to be found across the whole of Toril. There are pockets of it for sure, small in some places, large in others, and none in many places, forcing an import of said mithril. That's just how the flow of tradegoods works, in Toril as well as real life. Imports for the area of Baldur's Gate include ale, fish, herbs, iron, rugs according to the campaign setting. Note these are major imports, I would imagine gems not of the region would be imported as well. No gems are noted as a major export either, so we could say the region isn't too rich in gemstones, though some can be found. The same applies to The Silver Marches. That being said, I would think you could come across diamonds, if you had the right connections...those connections to be made IG. I believe that coming across 5k worth of diamond should be an active persuit for the two regions, as well as WHL when it goes live, and shouldn't be an immediate availability. I don't believe there should be little chance in that active persuit. It should definately be a minor quest/persuit for those interested. It makes the actual casting of the spell that more meaningful. My 2 cents I suppose.
Swift wrote:
Permadeath is only permadeath when the PCs wallet is empty.
Zyrus Meynolt: [Party] For the record, if this somehow blows up in our faces and I die, I want a raise
<Castano>: danielnm - can you blame them?
<danielmn>: Yes,
<danielmn>: Easily.
"And in this twilight....our choices seal our fate"
Burt_Reynoldz_Mustache wrote:Wait, I'm confused.
Sooooo you're just stating that things have changed since ALFA 1?
Yes, we changed to Neverwinter Nights 2.
“In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.” - Open Message to the Executive Branch.
On further thoughts of my original post, having had immediate family members in the jewelry and diamond businesses, any gem within the economics can be catagorized as a luxery item. Luxery items like all items are dictated by supply and demand, if there is a great business traffic for high quality items, you are apt to find them displayed within a store. Just an example, a rolex watch. Most stores in suburban and small urban cities as well are not going to have a rolex watch in house...however, they most likely can order one up for you. High scale stores in metropolises will most likely have rolex's within the stores themselves, and probably make a point of the fact. I would imagine places like Arabel, Waterdeep, Westgate, Selgaunt, cities of Amn ect, you'd have little problem actually finding 5k worth of diamond in house as it were...but the further you get from major trade routes, the less likely. I would say Silverymoon has a greatly diminished chance of that simply because the trade routes are long from the supplier (probably Amn as an originator or Waterdeep as a waypoint) and overland or riverrun, causing greater risk of theft. Though pirates do roam the seas, I would say it is less likely that product be highjacked on the seas because of the hit or miss of seatrade routes, whereas roads are firmly established and rivers are a bit more ambush prone. Granted there are ways to get around such, as in having a pirate pose as a crewmember, but that's another topic. Baldurs Gate would probably have a higher chance of having that in house, as it's population is a bit larger than SIlverymoon, it supports sea trade, and is a commercial center as well... even so, wealthwise you're probably looking at around 1,260 potential buyers within the city itself (rough estimate of 3% population owning much of the wealth) that could afford such as a luxery item. It's debateable weather a store there would actually carry such, as the store owner would not want to invest that type of coin into something that will only once in a blue moon be sold to a potential client if they can take an order and ensure that the next shipment from their supplier contains those diamonds, thereby ensuring the sale of such. What is more of a probability is that the major temples of the area have invested in such in preparation for use in these particular cases...thereby making the temples the most likely place to find the required diamonds since there is a demand. If the temple does not have such, I bet they know who to ask to get it. If they do have such, they're probably willing to part with it for coin, plus shipping cost...perhaps the shipping cost is covered by you doing a good turn for them. I guess this makes it 4 cents....
Swift wrote:
Permadeath is only permadeath when the PCs wallet is empty.
Zyrus Meynolt: [Party] For the record, if this somehow blows up in our faces and I die, I want a raise
<Castano>: danielnm - can you blame them?
<danielmn>: Yes,
<danielmn>: Easily.
"And in this twilight....our choices seal our fate"
First.....I would tweek Daniel's anology of a 5k diamond used for rezzing as being the FR equivalaent of a rolex. The rolex is merely a very expensive timepiece. However, you could aslo choose to keep time with a $5 plastic piece of junk...and it would do the job just fine. If raising of deal could alternatively be performed using a chipped peice of glass, then the rolex would be more fitting.
In the case of returning someone to life, the diamond is the only thing available to do the job, without less expensive alternatives available for substitution.
I'd like to instead use the anology of the diamond being the equivalent of a sailing ship. If you want to cross that ocean out there, you gotta have one. It ain't cheap, but it's the only way to cross the great sea. If a culture grew up around the notion that there was value in crossing the sea, then ships would become commonplace despite their high cost. People would leverage themselves to have one available. Entrepreneurs would make arrangements for leasing, etc.
Cultures that were land-locked or developed fearing the sea as strange and dangerous would not have a lot of ships about, although there would likely still be some weirdos and outsiders that participated in sailing (perhaps in secrecy).
It is clear from my FR reading that at least some people make active plans and contingencies for having people raised from the dead. The noble houses of Sembia come to mind. A patriarch of a family expecting foul play would be sure that his heirs knew his intent. He might even draw up a secondary contingency in the case his that oldest son decided no to follow through with the charge. Others, such as the Lathandrites written about in the series, specify in their will the proibition against such acts.
Depending upon who the PC is, there *might* be an IC reason to have constructed a contingency to be raised from the dead. It may even be a virtuous notion, that a father would wish to carry-on through his natural life-span in order to see his son guideded into adulthood.
It would not be available to all, or even any but the few elites. Perhaps similar to highly expensive life-extending therapies in modern medicine that upon their release are only able to be purchsed by the super-rich. Yeah, you euros might be shocked by it, but it *would* happen here in the US (cure for AIDS anyone?)
Anyway. I'm just saying that in some cases the raising of the dead is part of a cultural phenomena in FR canon. PCs in NWN1 most definately kept those Raise Dead scrolls on ther person as a contingency. It might not be that odd after all.
