Life insurance

[danielmn]

that's the way I saw it...I don't know about the carrying around raise dead scrolls, but everything else fits...Now...if we could find a way to infuse 5k worth of diamond dust into the scrolls.....now THAT would work....of coarse you'd be paying more, 1, 125 for the actual scroll price, and the 5k for the material component. I'd say that Raise dead scrolls infused with the material components could be fair game since you're actually paying more for the scroll than you would pay just getting raised at a temple...

If you don't have a temple around, or if you don't have one around that is appropriate, the 6,125 is a good investment. There again, you're looking at not having that in a general store atmosphere, and it being found mostly within the tenure of temples and temple sales. Since it is a pretty expensive item, I don't imagine 1 temple would be holding on to too many of them at once either.

[hollyfant]

We can: just raise the value of the scrolls with 5000gp. Which is exactly how PnP does it, the material components are spent during the making of a magical item and the costs are incorporated in the final price. However, this would violate our pricing standards.

[Burt_Reynoldz_Mustache]

We can: just raise the value of the scrolls with 5000gp. Which is exactly how PnP does it, the material components are spent during the making of a magical item and the costs are incorporated in the final price. However, this would violate our pricing standards.

I'm comfortable with that

[Blindhamsterman]

sounds very sensible

[dirsa]

still doesn't address the issue with pc cleric... where do the 5k get eaten and by whom?

[AcadiusLost]

Re: NWN1/Faenor Bital, she was well known for her extensive collection of rare and valuable gemstones; you could ask Viigas, but I expect there was one on-hand for that particular rez.

Yes, scrolls of Raise Dead exist in canon, and yes, the material component is expended in the scribing of the scroll in PnP, making it a special case for pricing. We already have extra added cost to our Identify scrolls to account for the 100 gp pearl. That may be a bad example, since we don't enforce the component on PC casters of that particular spell, but it's something we have done already without "violating our pricing standards".

Considering that the crafter who made the scroll may be considered in some way responsible for the later use of that spell in the case of divine magics, I wouldn't expect many temples would be selling them for profit. (Various house rules have been enforced in the past regard compatibility of alignments for temple rezes, etc).

(Also, with regard to NWN1-ALFA pricing, some DM teams used 3.0E pricing (500 gp diamond) rather than 3.5E pricing (5,000 gp diamond), so there's a significant difference there in price.

As to where the diamonds would "come from" for a PC-cast rez, even if they're not stocked in NPC merchant inventories, they can be purchased from NPCs via DMs through normal (RP-based) means. I recall doing this with my PC in the NWN1 days for the diamond dust to cast Glyphs of Warding. It would mean a certain level of "planning ahead" rather than being able to unexpectedly rez a party member on the spot mid-quest, I'm not sure that this would be a bad thing. I suppose a PC familiar with powerful divine magic might purchase and carry around a diamond of sufficient worth for such purposes; but it would be vulnerable to theft (before or after death) as well.

[edit: for the Where and By Whom: the diamond would disappear from the caster's inventory on successful casting of the spell via scripts; if it is not present, the spell would fail. This is the simplest implementation, and the one which will likely be in place with the next hak update.]

[hollyfant]

[edit: for the Where and By Whom: the diamond would disappear from the caster's inventory on successful casting of the spell via scripts; if it is not present, the spell would fail. This is the simplest implementation, and the one which will likely be in place with the next hak update.]

I trust said diamonds will also be available in the modules at that time then.

[Vendrin]

I miss it when Raise Deads only cost 1000 gold. 5000 just makes it to exclusive, but bleh.

[Duck One]

This is one of the areas that does not translate well from pen and paper to PC game. There's a reason that raise dead is a clerical spell and not arcane, and the implementation into computer game is going to fail to capture that. Here’s some things to consider:

The other planes are where the real action is. Battle for control of the universe happens on an entirely different scale, and most would consider returning from there a serious demotion. Imagine going from being a part of struggle to change the balance of power on some miserable piece of dirt back on earth to being a part of the epic contest for the balance of all time. Your old life shrinks to insignificance as you realize the magnitude of the planes. Imagine being reunited with all your fallen comrades, ancestors, and heroes of ages gone by. Imagine meeting your god and learning his plan for how you fit into fate? Why would you leave?

Clerics consider life and death the will of the gods expressed on the material plane. Reversing a death is crossing the will of some god or perhaps many, perhaps even the one you worship. The only reason you as a cleric might consider taking that risk is if it was patently clear that doing so would advance the agenda of your god to such a large degree that it outweighs the risk it presents.

If cheating death was a simple matter of money, then why would anyone of any means ever die? Think about the world that would be if it was that commonplace. No noble, merchant, or anyone of means would ever die. Think of the plots of quests you take and how their shape would change:

The niece of noble has posted a reward for those brave and industrious enough to solve his murder and bring the culprits to justice. You scoff at her and respond, “silly girl, why not take all that money and raise your uncle and ask him who did it.”

Or even more disjointed:

You learn of plot of an evil necromancer to build an undead army and attack the village. You fight through his minions and in a heated battle with the fiend, you slay him, putting an end to his foul plot. Alas, on your way back to town you are ambushed by none other but the very necromancer you thought you just vanquished. It turns out that he had a henchman who took him to be raised. Thus begins a series of back and forth ambushes with the same parties.

Bottom line: death has to have meaning, or the value of life loses some of its worth. While D&D created a fantasy loophole with the idea of raising from the dead, for a number of reasons this has to be exceedingly rare.

[Castano]

Sounds like we need to decide what type of campaign we are running. The "Sembia-style' (from the quote) everything is available for a price, no need to have other motivations (e.g. unfullfilled quests for your temple etc.) or the "low-rez" camapaign where you need to have a really good reason for coming back. The rest of the arguments are just circular..IC/OOC etc. doesn't matter, it can be IC to buy insurance if we are running the "Sembia style" campaign. On the other hand, it would never work since buying the insurance would be near useless if we are running a low-rez campaign.

I prefer the low-rez style...people forget how the old ALFA NWN1 campaign got..we had people running around with tons of gp/items etc., getting whatever they wanted versus a pool of have-nots - it created a situation where DMs felt the whole campaign was unbalanced and they started handing out rez's.

Just keep 5K on your PC, preferably concealed as some mundane looking item no one woudl steal, and you'll be rezzed if a DM feels it is necessary, e.g. there is some really important thing your PC needs to finish - like saving the world.

[johnlewismcleod]

Bottom line: death has to have meaning, or the value of life loses some of its worth. While D&D created a fantasy loophole with the idea of raising from the dead, for a number of reasons this has to be exceedingly rare.

Thanks Duck and Castano...very well said .

We play to play, not to "win". If perma death is watered down the inevitable result will be undermining of RP and immersion, and we will wind up as just another WoW-type XP and loot production server.

I think we're all here for something more rewarding than that.

Dying sucks peanuts...but even with permadeath and very limited resurrection, death still doesn't nearly approach what it should be; which is the greatest loss possible in life.

Rather than all this discourse on how to avoid death, how about we consider how to RP the reality of it:

Your long time best freind died IG? How about RPing the emotions and actions your PC would have in that situation? There is much more potential to honour the fallen through RP than in meta pursuit of eternal life IMO.

Edit:

I hope the tone of this isn't overly "flaming", as OGR and others have said, we encourage and enjoy input on all subjects for discussion.

This particular subject hits a bit "close to home" for me. I found ALFA after wasting some months on a server with respawn (ToM) where the RP was sufficiently good to cause me to hope I could stay there, but the insidious influence of death being temporary eventually ruined the fun for me and became unbearable.

Death was simply ignored (often equated to "being mugged"), and the players there were obsessed with XP and loot. Frequent thread were started where players whined that XP penalty of death was to high, or how if their PC was robbed and killed, the thief should keep their loot in perma storage so it could be returned to the PC when he/she was rezzed, etc

It became clear (and was oft stated as such) that RP was something done to pass the time on the way to gathering loot and XP.

THAT type of world is not for me.

I watch for (and will reward), effort made to realistically RP the fallout of deaths IG. And when this RP is absent, I notice that as well . Different PC's naturally will react differently to different deaths, so I point no fingers here...but kudos to Dan for Garlus Ironbeard...I always know when a dwarf has died.

[oldgrayrogue]

+1 on the last 3 posts. Now how about a thread on improving survivability at lower levels and increasing lethality at higher levels?

What sucks about lower levels is that you can die too easily, like on a lucky mob crit hit, before your "story" has a chance to really get going. What sucks about higher levels is that you (or the high level PCs other than you) become so powerful there is not much left to challenge them. Just when your PC becomes really cool in terms of his gear and abilities (and lets face it that is a part of the game and I am not ashamed to admit its a part I like), play can get boring because of the elimination of real risk. Unless one has that "WOW mentality" JLM mentions. IMO the challenge should start off fairly low and then increase exponentially with a given PCs increase in power. This gives players the ability to enjoy the early development of their character RPwise (and enjoy all of the content the server has to offer) without being petrified to leave town, as they develop in power to face the really life threatening challenges to come later on.

At least that's how I see it. Such a system also requires DM's willing to kill ... err challenge ... high level established PCs, and players willing to accept it when and if it happens. And don't misunderstand please -- I do not mean head hunting high levels. That is wrong IMO. What I mean is ratcheting up the challenge for high levels so that a) their death becomes the consequence of their own hubris and poor choices or b) their death becomes a memorable event in the context of their story. Players should not be upset with the above if it plays out either way.

[johnlewismcleod]

As usual, I agree with OGR: +1

[Vendrin]

The other planes are where the real action is. Battle for control of the universe happens on an entirely different scale, and most would consider returning from there a serious demotion. Imagine going from being a part of struggle to change the balance of power on some miserable piece of dirt back on earth to being a part of the epic contest for the balance of all time. Your old life shrinks to insignificance as you realize the magnitude of the planes. Imagine being reunited with all your fallen comrades, ancestors, and heroes of ages gone by. Imagine meeting your god and learning his plan for how you fit into fate? Why would you leave?

Depends on your definition of action. Some, (especially evil pcs) may not find it all that wonderful to become a nameless lantern archon/dretch/ other nameless cr1 creature that has no memories of what it once was. Because most petitioners who serve in the planar battles do not do so as spirits of who they were, they become something else. Perhaps your god's plan doesn't involve you dying yet, because they have thousands of dead servants already, but not very many where you were living. Some might have unfinished business, a family to protect, a king to serve, a god to please.

If cheating death was a simple matter of money, then why would anyone of any means ever die? Think about the world that would be if it was that commonplace. No noble, merchant, or anyone of means would ever die. Think of the plots of quests you take and how their shape would change:

Sure it will, you can't cheat natural deaths, and sometimes the dead npc won't want to return even if it was just an accident. Other times the person in charge of the family finances is rather pleased to be in charge now and has no reason to want to raise the other.

The niece of noble has posted a reward for those brave and industrious enough to solve his murder and bring the culprits to justice. You scoff at her and respond, “silly girl, why not take all that money and raise your uncle and ask him who did it.”

She responds, "Because he is happy with his god./Because the body was desecrated and can't be raised./Because the body was taken."

And as for the necromancer thing, if you are stupid enough to kill a necromancer of all things without securing the body, burning it or some other way to prevent him to raising to undeath/relife, then you deserve to get ambushed. Though a raise would take more then a later that day kind of thing.

Bottom line: death has to have meaning, or the value of life loses some of its worth. While D&D created a fantasy loophole with the idea of raising from the dead, for a number of reasons this has to be exceedingly rare.

It is exceedingly rare when you take in the NPC population. And if you want to say that the npc population doesn't count, and just count adventurer's that just doesn't work because adventurer's are a whole nother breed then the rank and file of a commoners.

I prefer the low-rez style...people forget how the old ALFA NWN1 campaign got..we had people running around with tons of gp/items etc., getting whatever they wanted versus a pool of have-nots - it created a situation where DMs felt the whole campaign was unbalanced and they started handing out rez's.

ALFA has always been low-rez style. The simple matter of the fact however is that high level adventurers are rich enough and most often have enough unfinished business that there is no reason for them not to be rezzed if it is IC for them, and that should be the player's call not the dms.

Now, death is always a traumatic experience and it should be rped as such, but how about we trust the players enough to do that.

We play to play, not to "win". If perma death is watered down the inevitable result will be undermining of RP and immersion, and we will wind up as just another WoW-type XP and loot production server.

I don't see it as inevitable. Trust people to rp the consequences of their actions. And we will never be just another WoW Type server.

Your long time best freind died IG? How about RPing the emotions and actions your PC would have in that situation? There is much more potential to honour the fallen through RP than in meta pursuit of eternal life IMO.

Really? Can you honestly tell me that if your friend died in real life and you had the opportunity to bring him back to life for a sizeable amount of cash you wouldn't do everything you could to do so?

[oldgrayrogue]

Vendrin:

As usual, you make several very well reasoned and legit points. As a DM, I would say each of the rez eamples you cite are totally valid IC, and I would venture any DM would think so. There are certainly many reasons a PC, for legit IC reasons, might make a pact with his friends (or followers) to rez him if he dies and even set aside the money and means to do so should it happen. I still think it should be DM moderated though and not available as "insurance" to be purchased from an NPC. Keep in mind though, RL analogies are not always apt. Would I mortgage the farm to bring a dear friend or family member back to life? Sure, most would, but my belief system is a little different than the setting we play in. On second thought, Steven King's Pet Cemetary comes to mind, so I'm not really sure I would try it in RL either =P