what do I have to do to be interesting enough?

[orangetree]

The only way I have found to truly enjoy Alfa is by finding regular campaigns to play in. I know it is hard to do and I consider myself lucky to have played with such fantastic dm's and players in the last year or two. I guess it is more hit and miss if one wants to play in a more frequent, one-off style. I always wind up frustrated and taking time off when I'm not in a campaign. Maybe it is harder to get good casual gaming with such a small player base as we have these days.

With your character Golinar you have the freedom to explore solo, and have a high chance of getting involved in events because of your high level. You get the best of everything. You got all the high points in the events, an interesting story to tell too, and to be honest, I felt severely over shadowed when I was with you. My 'interesting thing' when I tried to branch out was just to die the most pointless death in fictional history. I don't resent you for it, you earned it all.. I just hoped I had earned it- or was going to.

So yes, you were lucky to be liked. I don't consider myself lucky, or fortunate at all. And starting over with a new character, I feel less liked and involved then ever.

apologies for being over dramatic and emotional about it, but its been stewing in me a while and the frustration of it all had to come out.

I am sorry to hear you felt overshadowed when playing with me. Su was one of the PCs I felt most connected with, and interaction with her was one of the things that made my PC feel more emotionally involved in the Alfaverse. Like you said at the time, Golinar was like a kind of father figure to her, and that whole thing made him seem more human (dwarfish I mean) to me, something more than a bundle of numbers. I was incredibly disappointed to hear Su died, I was seriously hoping to meet up with her again after my current campaign ends.

The challenge for me when it comes to enjoying Alfa is to find an ongoing meaningful context for my PCs to act in. Campaigns are the surest way to that goal. Long term relationships with other PCs are another. I miss Su but I understand why you had to let her go. I think she was a very original and consistent PC and an achievement. I hope your new PC finds a group to build a history with. Starting a new PC is hard, just think of all the time invested it takes for a PC concept to become three dimensional.

As regards Golinar, if I want to explore solo I play some other game offline. Alfa is about trying to relive my tabletop days of old, it is entirely a social activity, and for me there's nothing as lonely or pointless as soloing. It's all about the campaign. Find one, make it work for your PC, that's the only advice I could give anyone.

She did like golinar, just never got a chance to be like him. The PC was a creational success but a failure as something viable and lasting. There were no accomplishments despite the work. Rather not dwell on it.

[Veilan]

Making a random PC and hoping for random DM attention is no longer terribly viable, if it ever was. Would you show up at a PnP session with a pre-made character sheet and always expect to be included? Sure you might be, but you also might not.

To have the best chance to be included in something fun, make a PC to fit in with an established group of players (or establish a group yourself). You don't need to be PGed for combat effectiveness but it does help to be useful. Sometimes this is just a rogue with a bunch of social skills, a wizard with a ton of knowledge ranks, or an expert tracker, locksmith and trapspringer.

I think Ronan sums it up succintly. This really is all there is to it.

Dry spells should not be taken personally, and with ALFA's current campaign-focussed low density it cannot be guaranteed that what you find interesting is found interesting by the few DMs and play groups active in your timezone (if there even are any).

Find a couple of friends and brainstorm what you can do, including a DM to make sure the DM is actually interested and has fun developing "your" story. And do be patient and realise that everyone else wants to shine too, and that if you play ball, you have to play passes more often than taking the shot yourself. This is not necessarily bad, it can be an extremely rewarding experience, especially if you have DMs that are as simulationist as you describe in that ogre event - which to me seems like a fine piece of DMing. It enforces that choices have consequences, yet did not railroad anyone to go confront overmatching ogres in combat. Do not expect to change the world on level 1-3 unless you are extremely lucky with a decidedly narrativist DM, but take it as an enjoyable, character-building experience. Enjoy the journey instead of longing for a far-off goal! Explore your freedom through and against the obstacles you encounter. It will be worth all the more for the feeling of having earned it in a setting with "realistic" results for your actions. To encourage you, my level 2 fighter once was persuaded to go along on a Waterdeep sewer exploration. We got into a Drow ambush, and what did I have my character do, knowing these were terrible foes far beyond her skill? Drop to the floor in panic and cry. This, ICly realising my character being a mook outclassed in combat by a local barkeep (a lvl 2 barbarian), not complaining about how the DMs did not make the Drow killable by me, is what made it so much more worthwhile when four RL (!) years later, that same fighter told a white dragon that foolishly decided to block her way to piss off.

Stories take time to develop and grow, and they are decided by the environment, your ability to entertain others, and - to a very great deal - luck. However, every journey is a story in and of itself, even if you wanted a different result. Sure, survivability, or as Ronan put it utility, matters to some extent, but it is less of a factor than random chance, timezone, and player networking. I speak from experience - I have many grudges about my own (broken) choices in a character, yet I am still managing to entertain myself in ALFA.

"Success" might still not be yours for a variety of factors. You should be prepared for dry spells even if you manage to get into a campaign, and it pays to have some means of making your own fun - such as making library posts for character journals, writing reports, setting IC goals for oneself, and so on. Don't be grumpy, don't think it's personal, try to find out what you can improve, and accept what you can't. Most importantly, don't be jealous, and don't insinuate to people that they are so much better off than you. You'll just ruin your (and often their) mood that way, and there's no point to it. The factors of "success" are to some degree beyond our control; enjoy what you have and can achieve rather than longing for what you can't (then). Learn and adjust; if you feel "weak sorcerers" do not make an enjoyable game for you, then maybe try some other class. Oh, and read some Sartre .

Anyway, coming here and having asked is a great first step, so, it seems you're on the way!

Cheers,

[HEEGZ]

Interesting tends to mean not powergamed. Not powergamed means less likely to survive- and given how harsh alfa has been of late, the only characters that can survive to have an interesting tale tend to be powergamed. This is a very difficult cycle to break. I don't find powergamed characters interesting, to play with or DM.

I completely disagree with these statements. There are plenty of PCs with builds that are not power-builds. There are PCs with powerful builds that have interesting stories as well. Also, the DMs and builders frequently powergame creature builds in order to provide a decent challenge, so there is some justification in building your PC intelligently if you are going to be involved in combats very often. I find that I prefer to DM the type of characters that turn you off as a player and DM, and have not encountered the lack of interest in them that you have.

Really the thing to take away is that bios should basically be instructions to the DM about what sort of plots and goals you're interested in and why they'd be cool to run, in as easy to read a format as possible.

Save the storytelling about interesting character history for the library forum.

I couldn't agree more. I don't generally read bios that are short stories. I scan for specific stats and build information, how I should expect this PC to be played in game, in combat, marching orders, and so on. I scan for plot hooks and goals to generate DM sessions from. I also seldom read the library except to look at TA's drawings or to post pictures myself. It's great that people enjoy writing, but as a DM with time limitations I am not generally going to read a bio for fun, it's all business and my main agenda is to prep for gaming.

Making a random PC and hoping for random DM attention is no longer terribly viable, if it ever was. Would you show up at a PnP session with a pre-made character sheet and always expect to be included? Sure you might be, but you also might not.

To have the best chance to be included in something fun, make a PC to fit in with an established group of players (or establish a group yourself). You don't need to be PGed for combat effectiveness but it does help to be useful. Sometimes this is just a rogue with a bunch of social skills, a wizard with a ton of knowledge ranks, or an expert tracker, locksmith and trapspringer.

I also agree with this 100%. If you look at the description of ALFA, it mentions that we use D&D. This is a gaming system. The core rulebooks are packed full of stats and descriptions for combats and adventuring. I have had this argument on IRC before, and I maintain that "Player characters by definition are adventurers." If you build your PC mainly for roleplay, but neglect the adventuring aspect of our gaming environment, you are likely to be disappointed.

There is a percentage of our community that prioritizes roleplay over adventure. My suggestions to these players is to find a DM who is similarly minded. All of my plots will always involve a healthy dose of combat and adventure. These things are dangerous and can and do lead to PC deaths. Permadeath is the most important pillar in ALFA for me, and adventure is primary over roleplay, which I view as peripheral to the main game of D&D adventure. Enjoyment of roleplay does not preclude adventure. This is a case where you can have your cake and eat it too. Not everyone is into mostly story and roleplay without the danger, but you might try others who are.

Good luck, OT. I know that we have very different expectations for game in ALFA. I know I DM'd you a couple days ago and there was combat involved. I'm unlikely to ever run story/RP-only sessions with you, but those things will always be included with anything I'm DMing. Of course the risk is that your PCs may die again, but that is inherit to playing a character whose profession is "adventurer".

[orangetree]

Interesting tends to mean not powergamed. Not powergamed means less likely to survive- and given how harsh alfa has been of late, the only characters that can survive to have an interesting tale tend to be powergamed. This is a very difficult cycle to break. I don't find powergamed characters interesting, to play with or DM.

I completely disagree with these statements. There are plenty of PCs with builds that are not power-builds. There are PCs with powerful builds that have interesting stories as well. Also, the DMs and builders frequently powergame creature builds in order to provide a decent challenge, so there is some justification in building your PC intelligently if you are going to be involved in combats very often. I find that I prefer to DM the type of characters that turn you off as a player and DM, and have not encountered the lack of interest in them that you have.

Really the thing to take away is that bios should basically be instructions to the DM about what sort of plots and goals you're interested in and why they'd be cool to run, in as easy to read a format as possible.

Save the storytelling about interesting character history for the library forum.

I couldn't agree more. I don't generally read bios that are short stories. I scan for specific stats and build information, how I should expect this PC to be played in game, in combat, marching orders, and so on. I scan for plot hooks and goals to generate DM sessions from. I also seldom read the library except to look at TA's drawings or to post pictures myself. It's great that people enjoy writing, but as a DM with time limitations I am not generally going to read a bio for fun, it's all business and my main agenda is to prep for gaming.

Making a random PC and hoping for random DM attention is no longer terribly viable, if it ever was. Would you show up at a PnP session with a pre-made character sheet and always expect to be included? Sure you might be, but you also might not.

To have the best chance to be included in something fun, make a PC to fit in with an established group of players (or establish a group yourself). You don't need to be PGed for combat effectiveness but it does help to be useful. Sometimes this is just a rogue with a bunch of social skills, a wizard with a ton of knowledge ranks, or an expert tracker, locksmith and trapspringer.

I also agree with this 100%. If you look at the description of ALFA, it mentions that we use D&D. This is a gaming system. The core rulebooks are packed full of stats and descriptions for combats and adventuring. I have had this argument on IRC before, and I maintain that "Player characters by definition are adventurers." If you build your PC mainly for roleplay, but neglect the adventuring aspect of our gaming environment, you are likely to be disappointed.

There is a percentage of our community that prioritizes roleplay over adventure. My suggestions to these players is to find a DM who is similarly minded. All of my plots will always involve a healthy dose of combat and adventure. These things are dangerous and can and do lead to PC deaths. Permadeath is the most important pillar in ALFA for me, and adventure is primary over roleplay, which I view as peripheral to the main game of D&D adventure. Enjoyment of roleplay does not preclude adventure. This is a case where you can have your cake and eat it too. Not everyone is into mostly story and roleplay without the danger, but you might try others who are.

Good luck, OT. I know that we have very different expectations for game in ALFA. I know I DM'd you a couple days ago and there was combat involved. I'm unlikely to ever run story/RP-only sessions with you, but those things will always be included with anything I'm DMing. Of course the risk is that your PCs may die again, but that is inherit to playing a character whose profession is "adventurer".

again I have to say I don't mind combat. (one hopes it will be balanced, but I like to hope one can try to flee in those circumstances) The previous char died alone, in a non-combat situation. I strongly doubt anything you run can be worse then what she endured.

[kid]

Going back to town rather than facing an ogre,
Telling the officials in hopes that they can help, or try to enlist NPCs to your goal all seems like reasonable ways of action to me.

I like battles you can't win, but it usually means there's a way around them in order to move the story along.

If the players can't find a way around it that's a shame, but not necessarily bad DMing.

Pitting you in a situation when your options are: fight unreasonable fight or don't play, would indeed suck. but it's hard for me to imagine such a situation.

[Rumple C]

Ah, the joys of playing a non-combat-effective-effective pc.

I know it well.

Such pc's are best played with

A) A group to interact with

and

B) A dm who "gets" that your pc is not going to be knocking out orcs with her little finger

...

Not the easiest of tasks, but ultimately more rewarding I think, if the stars align. If they aren't aligned, then you have a few choices open to you.

A) Stick with it, and hope for the best.
B) Stop playing
C) Change your paradigm a little, and roll a pc who is a bit more survivable

C, I think, invites a little thought. Your pc's in the past that I have dm'd have tended to be very squishy. Bards and Sorcs. Full of character, not full of AC or hit points. It should not be a surprise (nor a point of contention) that they were not combat effective without group. Perhaps you consider playing another class (who can be just as full of personality as your other pcs), such as...

A Fighter (you don't have to load up on ridiculous full plate if you dont want to, they'll still be more survivable with hitting things and higher AC, hit points).
A Cleric (still has magic, and solidly survivable)
A Rogue (sneaky, can hide from things)

Or inbetween class like Ranger (A roguey fighter type)

...

I never saw Golinar as outshining Su. They had complimentary skills and strengths, and on a number of occasions Su saved him with a barrage of magic (just as he came to her rescue in return). Golinar did his thing, which was being a determined, thoughtful dwarf who can swing an axe. Su did hers which was being an extremely small blonde and full of the weave.

As for lasting legacies...

Su did some cool stuff, including... seeing the Butterfly back into realmspace, and out of the grasping hands of... the Thayans, the cowled wizards, the Kraken society (you didn't know about that one), the harpers (duhn duhn), and the north dwarves. Not to mention, the other unique and fantastic adventures she had afterwards.

Not all stories result in a glowing sword or a castle. Indeed, most really heroic stuff is often unsung, and unappreciated.

Just as it is in real life.

[Xanthea]

Gwylla is really the unappreciated one. Thankless months keeping a group of incompetent PCs in one piece and winning battle after battle through her tactical genius and mighty axe. And what does she get? People yelling at her constantly.

[Twin Axes]

The PC was a creational success but a failure as something viable and lasting. There were no accomplishments despite the work. Rather not dwell on it.

What constitutes accomplishment? I believe one of the highest (if not _the_ highest?) forms of accomplishment in this game situation is creating and sustaining a believable character who functions according to an inner logic while interacting with his/her environment. It is also hard to keep up, and easy to burn out doing. Succeeding at quests is a major perk, but the biggest reward comes from making up a convincing part of the fabric of our communal (un)reality. More process, less goal-orientation. I saw Su as living up to this high standard.

[Ronan]

Fixed that for you:

Ander was really the unappreciated one. Thankless months keeping a group of incompetent PCs in one piece and winning battle after battle through his tactical genius and mighty AC. And what does he get? People yelling at him constantly.

Su actually ended up pretty powerful in combat though, moreso than Twobellies. Plus she got to hang out with Dread Pirate Ander, which is all the legacy anyone needs really.

[Lokan]

I am very interested in all our PCs, and had I more time for hobby I would develop PC specific events and storylines.

I do try to tailor random events to what I see in terms of PC class, level, descriptions, deity (this is actually a big one...see if you can pick out the conections between what your PC are involved in and what deity you put down on your character sheet), and PC bio (another big one, if Im sitting around online with you and seemingly doing nothing, I might be reading your bio). Sometimes I just run what I think is fun, and other times the event may be tied to a larger storyline I am either running or intend to run in the future. Most of the time, players dont pick up on it, but I hope someday you guys will get an AHHA! moment and make the connections. This is my own my little hit-or-miss way of adding persistence to the game.

To give you a better idea of my mindset, here is your event from my point of view. Meta be damned. The other PC that orangetree was with, sato, has perished so there should be no real meta conflict here... I hope.

I ran that "Event" with orangetree. Orangetree's PC was with another character. There were at least three instances where the PCs were given different choices to pursue.

First orangetree's PC and another PC (sato) Met with a dwarf on his way to the FAI. There was some discussion about the safety of the road as the dwarf had an urgent, but not emergent task to met someone there. The three (the PCs and the NPC dwarf) decided to travel together.

Along the way, the group met with a farmer who was in a bit of distress. He was concerned about a nearby cave that frequently seems to cause his farm problems. Seeing adventurers on the road provided him an opportunity to alleviate his mind. A fair amount of gold that he saves every year just for this purpose was worth the peace of mind he gets for paying these type of people to risk the cave. The farmer explained his predicament and the PCs decided to take a look. At this point the NPC dwarf stated that he would rather move on to the inn and complete his task (going into an unscouted cave sounded a bit too foolish to him, especially with the task he had to complete).

PC could have chosen to leave the farmer and continue on with the dwarf, but where would that have left the farmer?...hmmm. I can tell you that in my mind it would have created another event, maybe for these PC or maybe for another pair of PC that happnened to be online with me and happened to be near either the cave or the farmer. The PC could have gone with the dwarf and found out what he was doing at the inn, which then may have given them more things to pursue later.

Anyway, in my mind, at this point, considering the RP comments made by the PC, Sato earlier, it appeared that our heroes chose to take the coin offered for this task rather than accompany the NPC dwarf for free. The PCs admittedly did not know much about the dwarf's task. He had been a bit tight lipped.

The two PCs made their way into the dangerous woods. The made it to the cave as described by the farmer. OOCly, i had rolled percentage dice to chose the occupants of the cave. As a clue, the farmer had described what type of baddies historically were found there, but when I checked out the cave, the game engine had already placed some baddies, so I went with the random spawns rather than replacing them with what I had rolled. I enjoy the randomness of both dice and letting the game engine take over some of my decisions. I like it to avoid too many "softball" encounters. To me, if everything is easy and not dangerous its not fun.

These baddies were ogres, a pretty scarey group of them btw, and anyone entering that cave was doomed. orangetree's PC luckily spotted tracks which could be evident to almost any adventurous and vigilant type as the ground was wet and soft and the tracks where big (and the roll was good).

At this point the PCs decided to part ways. Not a wise decision on the part of Sato, but a very wise and IC decision on the part of orangetree's PC. Because the two separated orangtree and I had to resort to some tells of what the next actions of her PC would be, which I like, and eventually played into the event.

Sato decided to go into the cave despite the warning signs. The task was to check out the very back end of the cave. Sato, who is not very stealthy at all, could hear multiple "ogres" arguing, but continued on. He made noise by stepping on at least two twigs within the cave, as he crept into the cave (bad rolls), and kept moving. By the time he actually moved to a position where he could see the back of the cave, the ogres where ready to pounce, and they did. Sato tried to run, but ogres are faster. I gave Sato the option to take an action as the ogres surrounded him. He chose to surrender. The ogres had a secret agenda in that cave. So taking the human alive was an option. Plus I like the RP surrounding a capture rather than just kill the PC outright far more enjoyable.

In the mean time, orangtree's PC made her way to met other PCs, which was great. I left Sato to run a quick encounter with these PCs, hinting that something had gone wrong and Sato did not return. The PCs here chose not to pursue or investigate. Which was perfectly fine and all within character. After this there was a bit of a delay as i was AFK for a few minutes as well as continued to RP with Sato as his predicament was turning bleak. orangtree and the other PC made there way down the road and had passed the original farmer. I OOCly sent some tells asking if the two wished to RP an encounter with the farmer, as I cant be in two places at once, but both declined stating the IC choice of just moving on to their destination, again perfectly IC and perfectly satisfactory to me. I absolutely dont mind if players don't take my hooks, sometimes their choices not to engage in an event keeps them alive.

To wrap up, Sato took a number of beatings attempting to escape the ogres. A number of NPC guard types lost their lives to the ogres, and the farmers farm was nearly attacked. Sato made it out alive this time, only to die some time later. He did try to lie and convince the farmer to pay him orangetree's share of gold, but orangetree's actions through "tell" earlier proved Sato to be a liar. The guards that saved Sato took the payment from him for saving his life. Sato nearly died a number of times. I gave a break to Sato as the PC was new, and the player was new. Also, some of the actions by orangtree's PC allowed for the possibility of NPC "rescuers" to come to Satos aid. If the player and PC weren't so new, PC probably would have or should have died this time, but the player learned just how dangerous this place can be. A lesson given to me by BRM back when I first started, and probably the reason I am still hooked on Alfa.

I owe your PC some XP orangetree. I meant to XP your charater as I considered the choices IC which, to me, kept you involved in the actions of Sato and therefore owed the same XP time, albeit a bit less as your PC was not in such grave danger. I also would like to give the other PC you had met with some XP as you both made IC decisions centered around this activity. I didnt get a chance to during that log it time as the server was about to be updated and I didnt see you guys return.

[kid]

Awesome.

So it seems the problem is not being uninteresting but perhaps over emotional... ?

[HEEGZ]

There is plenty to take away from this thread. I think the main point is that we are a diverse, community with diverse play style preferences, and therefor diverse needs as both players and DMs. No one is really doing it wrong, but just differently. Our core issue is still matching up players with DMs, and a subset of that would be playing with people that have similar playstyles or approaches to the game.

[zach2588]

I would like to say, as the rather foolhardy noob that went into the ogre cave alone =P, that the quest Lokan put together was spot on as an introduction to Dmed quests in Alfa, at no point did I feel my actions where decided and I was given the opportunity to escape and nearly make it away. As Lokan said the promise of the gold was what I would see that PC pursuing over the defense of some dwarf. He did survive the encounter barely but because because I wasn't really enjoying the character I decided to roll a new character. And because he was never seen again (been quiet this week from the EU folks, where are you all?) people he had met assumed he died in the last place he was seen.
Anyways, this idea of emergent stories and actual risk are what attracted me to ALFA in the first place, sorry if you where a little mislead about the fate of Sato Orangetree, but as I figured it there was no way in character to let you know.

[trentfrompunchy83]

Is this a serious post? I know players who go without DM attention for months on end (including myself). I am thankful for any attention, even if it just some random NPC abusing my abusive elf. I will swap with you anytime.

[FoamBats4All]

[...] you've gone from the most-DMed player in ALFA to just the average experience of an ALFAn.

Is this a serious post? I know players who go without DM attention for months on end (including myself). I am thankful for any attention, even if it just some random NPC abusing my abusive elf. I will swap with you anytime.