Server Release: This way or that?

[Ronan]

So am I the only one who thinks player/DM condensation could be a viable alternative to enforced density? Its something we can try now, in NWN1. While some of the limited server numbers some people are suggesting would keep me from playing the sort of game I came to ALFA to play, I recognize that most people think something needs to be done to prevent ALFA2 from looking like ALFA1 does when its endgame comes around.

I think the question really needs to be when/whether a server is approved for development in the first place - the choke needs to be at approvals.

While I understand where you coming from on this, I think it places the emphasis at the wrong point. Applications are just that, far-removed from a live server, especially in a game we don't even have yet. We truely have no idea what will be possible in NWN2 until we've seen the game, and seen its bug too. At NWN1 live there were an astounding number of scripting functions which were broken, and/or could cause the server to crash. I pray it won't be the same for NWN2, and it probably won't be, but I'm sure there will be other problems. At launch, I do think NWN1 was the most comically broken, yet still playable, game I'd ever seen.

In addition, build-teams rarely remain intact from onset to live. So while a proposal includes a set of people working on a server, there is a good chance that some of those people will be gone.

IMO the emphasis has to be on testing and approval of the server. If it doesn't meet ALFA's standards, it should have to be fixed or never go live. Currently, and I think Wynna even thought this for NWN2 as well, our testing department consists of T-dawg. No big proposal selection team, no voting by admin or polls run to see who wants what, just T-dawg. And his hard work has no direct effect, as the DMA doesn't have to take any of his findings into account. You might say we'll worry about this later, but if Rick's idea for a quick starting server happens, we won't be able to. Despite the ease of shovelling mind-breaking levels of work on one person, I do think we'd be better off going with a group of people approving servers for live. Perhaps servers should require the stamp of the Standards team itself.

How many current ALFA1 server builds would really meet the kind of standards we want? How may have fun, repeatable, non-farmable static content (for a range of levels), hubs for PCs to meet up and get together, areas and creatures which conform to canon, and rewards and merchants in-line with ALFA's standards? I'd say not a single one, and not even close. If we told 10 proposals they'll have slots, and only approved servers for live with all of the above, how many would we really have left?

[Fionn]

It really concerns me that #1 is so popular. I agree with Wyn, but even if we deviate from the PoR, we need the 'hold point' that T mentions. Presuming we are seriously popular, and 16 servers all want to be approved immediately after Gold, I'd rather not see the Standards team the defacto selection team after live. This puts far too much pressure on them to stop holding up 'perfectly good servers'. It also forces completely organic growth and hampers Admin's ability to direct.

[Rick7475]

I didn't vote (yet), but I have a question. Has Rick's suggestion for a group starting server (to get ALFA on the Map) been shelved, or does this account for it?

I plan on getting to know the toolset by building a quick mod. Help has been offered, and I still plan to go ahead with this. KOTBL is the current mod I want to try. Other suggestions, of course, are welcome, and an Underdark region will be involved either as part of the mod or linked via portalling. But the quicker we have something up, the more players we will retain. I am counting on the quality RP'ing

Hosting, of course, is up in the air. The DF team may be able to host, but we do need H/W upgrades.

My goal is to also have a server vault for PC's to begin. They could then play on a live server once they are up. After the live servers are up, someone could add KOTBL's to their server.

I do have experience with standards, and this would be a level 1 - 3 type server, low magic do to the frontier location, and very few trade itens like herbs and stuff, just your basic DnD potions a few scrolls, etc. Limited diety representation and so on (one temple, very basic). Probably on armorer (smithy), a leather worked (tanner) and militia to join in defense of the keep. The Lord himself would be a level 6 - 8 fighter with typical retainers, wife, maybe kids. Captain of the House Guard (level 4 fighter) could be replaced by a player, basic Keep-like politics, feats, parties, and of course, caves and tunnels of goblins, orcs, and all sort of stuff to keep adventurers busy (and all the treasure an orc might hide, such as an occassional gem or two).

This is a very basic server so survivors that make it to a live server would have some sort of bonding and something to look back on.

I have no official word, though, so it could be squashed.

[Ronan]

It really concerns me that #1 is so popular.

Its my opinion that if we build a truely great PW, instead of this empty campaign setting that is ALFA, we won't really ever have the sort of density problem we do now. Of course thats all dependant on actually not allowing servers which aren't up to our standards. And if we do allow empty-ish campaign servers like many of ALFA's are now, all we need to do is make sure they are filled with players who are happy with that sort of thing, and not people who would rather form an ad-hoc party together and tackle a static while waiting to see if a DM hops on. "Density" itself is very irrelevant, its all how well you can condense the playerbase into an area small enough to break whatever your level of critical mass is. It so happens this is easier with denser servers, but thats all IMO. An odd, but I think very good analogy would be standard fuel-rail injection engines vs. the newer direct-injection (if anyone else here keeps up with that stuff).

I agree with Wyn, but even if we deviate from the PoR, we need the 'hold point' that T mentions. Presuming we are seriously popular, and 16 servers all want to be approved immediately after Gold, I'd rather not see the Standards team the defacto selection team after live.

Well, someone has to do it, so I just threw out a name.

This puts far too much pressure on them to stop holding up 'perfectly good servers'. It also forces completely organic growth and hampers Admin's ability to direct.

Admin has never directed the content of a live server in a meaningful fashion since I've been here. Maybe I should start posting my lists of underpriced items, broken mobs, too-cheap merchants and over-rewarding statics to public forums

[MorbidKate]

It really concerns me that #1 is so popular. I agree with Wyn, but even if we deviate from the PoR, we need the 'hold point' that T mentions. Presuming we are seriously popular, and 16 servers all want to be approved immediately after Gold, I'd rather not see the Standards team the defacto selection team after live. This puts far too much pressure on them to stop holding up 'perfectly good servers'. It also forces completely organic growth and hampers Admin's ability to direct.

Is there really any surprise that Option 1 is so popular?

I think you'll find that there will be a somewhat steady flow of servers and not a big batch coming all at once. Of course the stragglers will probably begin the slow slip towards perma-beta if they loose momentum. The ALFA1 Betas showed that in spades I think.

That said, Servers should be allowed to go Live after the following:

1. The Basemod is complete and all work has been imported into it.
2. It passes Beta testing which includes checks on standards, leaks, etc...

If there is a group effort to get that first Server up then it should function as the Basemod and not go Live until it can be safely used as a template for the Servers under development.

Kate

[AlmightyTDawg]

Although I freely admit it's just a belief and no sort of fact, I think it will be a massive mistake to at any point in time have less than three "Live" servers up at a time. It may sound like a sort of subtle point differentiating Live versus Beta and its impact on the community-wide gameworld, but I think too small an area meant to stuff our people into like a can of sardines is going to cause problems and be a management nightmare.

I'd say probably from the time the first server's through Standards maybe about a 2 - 3 week maximum wait and then go with what we have at that point.

I think we can give people a home with a well-crafted serious of Beta campaigns, ad-hoc capture-the-flag or treasure-hunt games, DM training/seminars, or any number of things that could match players to DMs. Players who want RP should be able to find it without necessarily worrying so much about perfect canon/regional fidelity, while at the same time putting our greatest workforce to unintentional work.

[Ronan]

One thing I forgot to mention is that, given suffucient volunteers, I plan for the basemod to contain the following things, with the entire standard NWN2 pallet replaced with ALFA content:

• Standard, masterwork, +1 and +2 items for every weapon and armor type we have, hopefully with a variety of appearances.
• A set of canon creatures for ever creature model we have, along with a few specialized things not spelled out in the MMs, like barbarian/ranger orcs, etc.
• Doors of every type, which have the statistics laid out in 3.5's rules.
• Chests and things with the same.

Given that all this stuff should follow ALFA's standards and will have its CR set correctly, it should make testing a lot easier. Plus, our spawn system can dynamically rename or re-faction creatures, so there will be less need to create new creature blueprints.

Spawn drops and XP rewards will be easier: All the builder needs to do is set the spawns CR correctly. Loot will be based on CR, creature race, classes, and many other factors. In the end, I think it should be far harder to screw something up.

[Keith Mac]

I voted #1 for sure

My issues are as follow...

1. I agree with what some have touched on already which is that the servers need to be held to a higher standard of testing before they go live....There needs to be an alfa wide consistency that is upheld....I understand that do this you will need more indians to test the servers and that opens up the ever dreaded and feared "meta" ....

2. I also realize if we adhere to promote (above paragraph) that it may take too long to get the first server(s) up and running...so IMHO(Even though it isn't fair) the first three servers will have to be shown some leniency.......but to counteract that...they should be monitered and tracked to make sure they get up to snuff asap.....Maybe keep a beta copy running along side for testing?

[Voersaa]

I voted 5, we are spread too thin and ALFA seems to have a really unlucky habit of expanding regardless of that problem.

With NWN 2 there is a chance to consolidate and regroup. IMO we need to gather players and DM's in close proximity to each other and build in numbers and strength from there.

It is important for me to say that I'm not against expanding beyond the initial servers. But where we can go back on initially restricting our servers, we cannot go back on servers that have already gone live.
I really don't want to see servers that only exist to server 3 or 4 players and a DM, once a week and that's a ghost town the rest of the time. My dream of ALFA was never of something like that.
I've always wanted to play in a busy metropolis where players and DM's are frequently interacting, instead of the barren wasteland that too many servers will create.

I must have convinced around 12 people to join ALFA in my time here but every single time the same thing happened. They left within 2 - 3 months because they ended up spending their majority of their time alone. And god knows that some of them really tried, because ALFA promises so much. Unfortunately we far from always deliver.

Besides there was only about 4 fairly busy servers back before I stopped being active. The 4 or 5 others were really only window dressing but counterproductive window dressing when looking to recruit through GS.

[illialid]

I didn't vote (yet), but I have a question. Has Rick's suggestion for a group starting server (to get ALFA on the Map) been shelved, or does this account for it?

I plan on getting to know the toolset by building a quick mod. Help has been offered, and I still plan to go ahead with this. KOTBL is the current mod I want to try. Other suggestions, of course, are welcome, and an Underdark region will be involved either as part of the mod or linked via portalling. But the quicker we have something up, the more players we will retain. I am counting on the quality RP'ing

Hosting, of course, is up in the air. The DF team may be able to host, but we do need H/W upgrades.

My goal is to also have a server vault for PC's to begin. They could then play on a live server once they are up. After the live servers are up, someone could add KOTBL's to their server.

I do have experience with standards, and this would be a level 1 - 3 type server, low magic do to the frontier location, and very few trade itens like herbs and stuff, just your basic DnD potions a few scrolls, etc. Limited diety representation and so on (one temple, very basic). Probably on armorer (smithy), a leather worked (tanner) and militia to join in defense of the keep. The Lord himself would be a level 6 - 8 fighter with typical retainers, wife, maybe kids. Captain of the House Guard (level 4 fighter) could be replaced by a player, basic Keep-like politics, feats, parties, and of course, caves and tunnels of goblins, orcs, and all sort of stuff to keep adventurers busy (and all the treasure an orc might hide, such as an occassional gem or two).

This is a very basic server so survivors that make it to a live server would have some sort of bonding and something to look back on.

I have no official word, though, so it could be squashed.

The offer to host still stands. The box I am running TLR on still meets the specs that I have seen. The tech folks would have full access to tweak/trial as much as they see fit.

[Grand Fromage]

1 all the way, natural selection will keep the server number reasonable. Honestly I'd be surprised if there are more than six machines floating around ALFA capable of hosting a NWN2 module.

[Ronan]

I've always wanted to play in a busy metropolis where players and DM's are frequently interacting, instead of the barren wasteland that too many servers will create.

3) Faerunian Scope. ALFA's goal is to span Faerun.

For good or ill, that is ALFA's goal. One could argue limiting built area in any way goes against this pillar. I'm certainly never one to be a stickler about a rule, however, so I'm not going to take holier-than-thou stance that limited building is the devil. But if we no longer want to achieve that goal, perhaps its time someone told the pillars?

The only way I could think of achieving ALFA's goals (and yes, I'll argue this until I'm blue in the face, even though no one is listening) is realizing that density in itself does nothing. A dense server in ALFA is still very, very empty. Think about it... TSM has over 500 areas! There is no way it will have any significant amount of density, in itself. The actual area per PC is rather moot to the PC's enjoyment, all the PC cares about is that he has others to interact with and things to do. IMO, we need servers with clear hubs, tools to show players where they can find a game during their play hours, and ways for players to meet up in an IC-fashion (the biggest reason I liked proximity). If we do that, we could build however much we wanted, and have more server area to use. That means more plot opportunities, and more adventuar possibilities.

Density increases the odds of a chance meeting, of course. And it gives the more antisocial PCs and players more chances to get involved in things. The only way to achieve the same effect with less density, in my mind, is to actually match PCs and players to DMs in an OOC fashion, as is done in a PnP campaign.

PS: Spent some time talking to T-dawg in chat, I think we can cut down the time spent testing things by a significant margin, with some scripting (reporting) tools and other tricks.

[Voersaa]

I pretty much agree with what you are saying Ronan.

IMO the idea of recreating the Faerun has shown to be unrealistic. And more or less every one here should have acknowledge that by now (unless they are living in a world of make believe). The only way that we may recover this fallen pillar is to consolidate and have a few but VERY active servers that will make ALFA as PW stand out. Once that is achieved and our numbers have grown substantially we can start to consider what to do next.

Those that argue for "natural selection" of servers are forgetting that ALFA is not about "our little group of people" and never has been. We were meant to be a huge thing and we sure as hell won't recruit more players by going into the "we are the oh so sacred PW" thing, that some people in here like to preach. We will stand out as being the same pompous assholes as we have been painted as in the past. With just as many empty servers as we’ve had in the past.

Quality over quantity. After all isn't that what ALFA is all about?

[Castano]

One thing I forgot to mention is that, given suffucient volunteers, I plan for the basemod to contain the following things, with the entire standard NWN2 pallet replaced with ALFA content:

• Standard, masterwork, +1 and +2 items for every weapon and armor type we have, hopefully with a variety of appearances.
• A set of canon creatures for ever creature model we have, along with a few specialized things not spelled out in the MMs, like barbarian/ranger orcs, etc.
• Doors of every type, which have the statistics laid out in 3.5's rules.
• Chests and things with the same.

Given that all this stuff should follow ALFA's standards and will have its CR set correctly, it should make testing a lot easier. Plus, our spawn system can dynamically rename or re-faction creatures, so there will be less need to create new creature blueprints.

Spawn drops and XP rewards will be easier: All the builder needs to do is set the spawns CR correctly. Loot will be based on CR, creature race, classes, and many other factors. In the end, I think it should be far harder to screw something up.

Ronan you are a god. Having standard items and doors and chests and monsters would take about 25-50% of the work out of development.

[Ronan]

The only way that we may recover this fallen pillar is to consolidate and have a few but VERY active servers that will make ALFA as PW stand out.

Well, I was actually saying that we can have mostly inactive servers which do not have a detrimental effect on gameplay. We just need to keep the people looking for an ad-hoc game from logging into them and becoming disapointed. There are shades of gray between ad-hoc and campaign players of course, but the gist of it is I think we can find a spot for most everyone if we actually try, instead of sitting around moaning that NWN1 isn't dense enough. If we can do that successfully, we can have our cake and eat it too. Otherwise I agree with GF, its probably all pretty moot in the beginning anyways.

Ronan you are a god. Having standard items and doors and chests and monsters would take about 25-50% of the work out of development.

Hey, I won't be doing it all myself. Just like familiars and some of the data-entry I've needed, I'll post instructions and things for people wanting to help add anything (including new spells). But there is no way I can tackle all that myself... In many things I'm more or less at the mercy of the motivation of our memberbase.