A house divided against itself cannot stand

[Rick7475]

The PC transfers are not a big issue. From a tech perspective most of the PC transfers will be NWN2 -> NWN1. NWN2 already is lacking some of the functionality that NWN1 has, such as lack of using traps, making NWN1 more attractive. Anyone who says you can't transfer PC's is just lazy. All it requires is a close rebuild and close items.

It depends on how anal the community wants to be. If certain skills are lacking, or certain cleric domains are not there, so what? It is the spirt of the closest fit.

As for the rift, I'll take a big chunk of the blame. I perpetuated it with the DMA bullshit. So piss on me all you want.

[Mulu]

And I have to comment on this tangent.

My reference to "MK II" servers not being a part of ALFA was a direct result of you saying there would be a vault connection only to allow a "One way" port of characters to your server where nothing running on it would be compatible with the rest of our NWN1 servers.

I never offered to host the mods, just build them. Obviously if they have a different hak set they are incompatible with the older mods.

ALFA is about the ability to travel parts of Faerun that have been created for the players.

I think it's about the roleplay.

You proposed to sever that link and that's a non-starter in my book as is the pipe dream of rebuilding multiple NWN1 servers from scratch.

All of ALFA is a pipe dream. Doesn't stop anyone. And yes I can debate you and still like you, or anyone else for that matter.

I'm in Hawaii next week, after that I'm in trial for a month. Come September, I'll play again, even if I bleed out in the first five minutes, but don't tell AL that because I still need to martyr myself for the bleed rules cause a little more.

[AcadiusLost]

OK, just a few things from me on this.

Is it technically unworkable to bring a NWN1 PC into NWN2 or vice versa? No, though as suggested, it would take personalized rebuilding/toolsetting for each PC so transferred.

Technical incompatibilities were never the motivating force behind starting fresh (in terms of the vault and canon) for NWN2. ALFA's years of plot developments are largely undocumented, and at times went a very different direction than WotC canon. While this made for amazing stories for the players and DMs so involved, it becomes increasingly difficult for new members to assimilate all of this information. After much discussion, which ought to be archived somewhere, it was decided to start fresh with 3.5E canon at a defined point in the timelines. This removes plenty of headaches trying to work out backstories for PCs and plots.

NWN2 is rooted in the D&D 3.5 ruleset, while NWN1 is based in 3.0- there are some significant differences (weapon use by druids, feat progressions, ranger hit dice, changes in spell lists, etc). Again, much better for continuity's sake to have a clean start.

On another front, many have favored a loosening of the one-PC rule to help aid chances of getting in-game interaction with other players when times are sparse, but we've always struggled with how to balance this against other concerns. Maintaining the dual platforms is ideal for this; players who are so equipped may play one PC on each platform, and choose which to engage in based on other player and DM availability at the time.

Lastly, the conversion of long-established PCs from NWN1-ALFA servers would pose a significant challenge on the tech, building, and DM fronts. We have assumed up till now that high level content could be de-prioritized early on, because we don't have 10-20th level PCs, and won't for some time yet. The wheels are turning for PrCs and other higher-level associated infrastructure, but we were counting on having some more time to develop it. I also get the sense that many members who did not have a high-level PC in NWN1-ALFA quite appreciated the fresh start that NWN2 offered, feeling overshadowed by PCs that had been rolled up years prior. Those playing mid to high level PCs in NWN1-ALFA may actually find it refreshing to step into a new pair of shoes, without having to abandon long-lived and fully developed characters back on the NWN1 platform. Really, it seems a win-win situation to me.

With regard to the tension between NWN1 and NWN2, I really don't believe there has been any resentment among the NWN2 builders for those who prefer the original platform. I believe some comments were taken in the wrong light along the way, but these have mostly been directed at folks who were chomping at the bit for NWN2 content without trying to contribute themselves, not at those who simply prefer NWN1 as a platform. Really, most of us working primarily on NWN2 are daily trying to reintroduce elements of the NWN1-ALFA experience that are decidedly lacking in NWN2 (getting rid of the awful floating-up text, for example). Certainly, we are interested to help those who are interested to learn building for NWN2 expand into it, but I certainly am not going to tell anyone that they are somehow wasting their time on NWN1. There is no difference in the quality of the stories between the two platforms. They are both ALFA, and will continue to be as long as there are hosts, DMs, and players who wish it to be so.

[edit- spelling]

[MorbidKate]

I never offered to host the mods, just build them. Obviously if they have a different hak set they are incompatible with the older mods.

I didn't say anything about hosting. Many people who have built and run servers have had them hosted elsewhere. If and when ALFAs NWN1 servers become 1.69 compatible, would you be willing to build a new server (using the basemod to save time) and DM on it since players could freely travel back and forth? I suspect your suddenly not interested so I'm curious why?

Btw, talk of doing rebuilds for players to move around, either between platforms or between incompatible NWN1 servers isn't about being lazy. At the most basic level, we just don't have the DM resources to waste time rebuilding toons and gearing them up (and with custom gear?!) whenever they travel. As it is DMs are already weighed down by admin duties and other requests that drain their time to actually DM when they log in and people are seriously suggesting this? Oh hells noe.

Kate

[White Warlock]

Okay, once again the topics of concern are being sidetracked by non-issues. I recall absolutely nobody complaining about PCs 'not' being transported over to NWN2. In fact, i heard quite the opposite, with people recognizing the opportunity to have 'two' PCs in alfa. So let's stop this 'straw man.' It is not, nor was it ever, the issue.

Also, the notion of NWN2 persons having an issue with NWN1 persons was never a great issue, although the pro-NWN2 atmosphere created in ALFA did tend to chaff the hide of many NWN1 players/dms. So, you see... it was NWN1 persons who had a great issue, with the way they were being sidelined, not the NWN2 persons who were sidelining the NWN1 projects. In fact, as this entire thread stands in evidence, ALFA NWN2 proponents didn't even 'notice' the slights they presented to the ALFA NWN1 community.

Really, truthfully, that is the problem. A gross failure to recognize just how abandoned the ALFA NWN1 community felt. Many members quit for just this reason, knowing they had no interest in NWN2, and seeing their beloved ALFA NWN1 being left to fester. No support, no fanfare, no PR effort to continue in obtaining players/dms, nothing. Just this attitude that 'some' alfans still want to hold onto the past.

Well, what if they do?!? Hell, tabletop PnPs are still very popular, as are MUDs and forum RPGs. The medium doesn't define the player base, it's the other way around. And the more players in ALFA, choosing to participate in one form of RPG or another, means more Players in alfa... period.

The underlying angst behind ALFA's NWN2 proponents has been the notion that two platforms means half the participants for each. It's an irrational fear that has come to life primarily because said fear caused this problem to happen. In fear that ALFA's NWN1 would steer participants and talent from NWN2, ALFA has instead effectively jeered NWN1 proponents out of ALFA, decreasing the overall membership, and thus removing potential NWN2 participants in the process. As well, because NWN2 was the new flagship in the dock, ALL advertising of ALFA's NWN1 simply stopped cold.

We can talk about the non-issues all day, but at the core of this is a complete and utter failure to recognize there is a loyal NWN1 fanbase. ALFA NWN1 has two choices:

1. To remain part of ALFA and hope it 'eventually' changes its stripes, or

2. To go its separate way and make an effort to be recognized on its own, as a non-ALFA project.

I am sure we all agree, the two choices presented above are dependent upon this administration's decisions. A failure to change, now, likely means ALFA's NWN1 will change its name and break its dependence on the ALFA logo.

Thanks for reading,
Roy

[psycho_leo]

Back when we were preparing for NWN2 launch any sane person knew that a seamless transfer of PCs wouldn't be possible and any attempt of transfering characters would have to go through rebuilds. Almost everyone, me included were against it for at least one of three reasons.

1. We wanted a vault wipe. New PCs for everyone, everyone starting at lvl 1 and no concerns of grossly overwalthed PCs running amock.

2. It was a way to circumvent the one PC rule. While we could keep playing older and well stablished PCs in NWN1 we could also try new and fresh concepts in NWN2.

3. It puts an extra strain on DMs. Most of us didn't really like doing rebuilds. We did them when we needed of course, but it's always a pain, especially when you have high lvl PCs.

Maybe there is some advantadge to revisiting that decision now, but I certainly don't see it. People that keep themselves to one platform only, do so out of personal taste or technical hurdles, and allowing for transfers between the two games is unlikely to change it. And as for this allowing DMs to play, they can already if they so wish. Maybe there's one or two guys that refuse to play NWN2 unless they can play their l33t lvl 10+ PC with loads of magical gear, but I sincerely doubt that. I also doubt that most TSM DMs are willing to deal with lvl 10+ PCs with loads of magical gear and PrC lvls when most of their players are in the 1-4 range.

As for this schism, the reasons for it date from long ago. It started back when folks got accused of not contributing and NWN1 was appointed as one of the causes for the lack of NWN2 contributors. Then watched the person who was doing the most amount of tech work for NWN1 being pushed away, which severely slowed the content addition and bug fixing for NWN (many thanks to BB and Electryc and whoever else worked on the latest haks for keeping it going though). NWN1 members also got a lot of flak during the days of Rusty election drama. Finally we watched the latest results over the weekend. Cipher did an amazing job with meeting the tech needs to getting TSM ready for live and I probably deserved to leave admin in his own terms and like Kate said it's a shame that it ended like it did, specially when better communication would likely go a long way to avoid it. It's good though that you recognize we have a problem.

I hope, and by the platforms from both candidates, I think it's promising, that the next TA understands the importance of continual suppot of both platforms, so we keep all of our playerbase content.

[White Warlock]

There it is gentlemen, Psycho Leo and I agree (scary as that sounds), PC NWN1<=>NWN2 platform transfers were 'never' the issue. It's a "strawman."

PC platform transferring is kaput, a non-issue, a cat with no tail, a pig with no fat, a joke with no punch line. Move on, drop it, kill it. Read back through the posts and focus on the real issues that were presented.

Thanks

[Veilan]

Personally, I think NWN1 is going to outlast NWN2

+1

In the meantime, I'm thoroughly enjoying being able to play two characters within ALFA.

[AcadiusLost]

The underlying angst behind ALFA's NWN2 proponents has been the notion that two platforms means half the participants for each. It's an irrational fear that has come to life primarily because said fear caused this problem to happen. In fear that ALFA's NWN1 would steer participants and talent from NWN2, ALFA has instead effectively jeered NWN1 proponents out of ALFA, decreasing the overall membership, and thus removing potential NWN2 participants in the process. As well, because NWN2 was the new flagship in the dock, ALL advertising of ALFA's NWN1 simply stopped cold.

I'm not really seeing this. The angst of NWN2 has been the giant workload for those who were working behind the scenes, amidst players who did want to play NWN2-ALFA complaining, who were making frequent commentary on us being too slow to go Live, and otherwise pressuring the builders and tech staff. I don't ever recall NWN1-loyal members being somehow blamed for the difficulties. A lack of willingness to Beta test among voices of regular complaint, sure; but there is enough of a learning curve with NWN2-based work, that NWN1 expertise doesn't immediately transfer over anyway. On the topic of advertising, we hadn't been doing a lot of that for NWN1-ALFA in years, nor have we done all that much of it for NWN2-ALFA... so again, I am not seeing how this amounts to some sort of betrayal of the NWN1-loyal contingent.

We can talk about the non-issues all day, but at the core of this is a complete and utter failure to recognize there is a loyal NWN1 fanbase. ALFA NWN1 has two choices:

1. To remain part of ALFA and hope it 'eventually' changes its stripes, or

2. To go its separate way and make an effort to be recognized on its own, as a non-ALFA project.

Other than some comments exchanged amidst this 1.69 tempest, I am not at all convinced that our "stripes" are of a color that is necessarily driving NWN1 players away. I believe the "old guard" of NWN1 HDMs/builders so to speak, has been disheartened by the infighting and flaming that has gone on in the run up to Live, with the fireworks between Rick and Rusty, for example. I also believe they have been painted in a poor light by inflammatory labels like "NWN1 cabal" and such... but really, I believe things are somewhat overstated here. There is a fair bit of misrepresentation floating about, so let's let people speak for themselves rather than assuming they know the motivations of people who are upset.

I don't believe any of the standing Admin have been at all ignorant of the continued existence of NWN1 loyalty, nor seen it as any kind of "problem" to be fixed. Indeed, I believe both Paazin and FI are quite active in NWN1 personally. Unless I am missing something pretty significant, I would hope we can move beyond this notion that there is some kind of massive rift in our community. If such a gulf exists, I believe it is mostly in the minds of a few members who have been themselves at the wrong end of fairly serious misunderstandings.

[Riotnrrd]

RP is platform independent.

Most of the NWN1 servers are gone. The story to which I devoted my PC disappeared first, then the servers I regularly played on evaporated. My PC is still alive, but NWN1 to me is shattered and gone.

I have an old computer (p4 2.8GHz, 1G memory, 6800 GS graphics), but it will run NWN2 decently well. Eventually, those with older computers will upgrade... average is what, 4 years?

I'm looking forward to NWN2 as a fresh start. I plan to throw my building and scripting skills into NWN2 in the immediate future, because it seems like that is what is needed most right now (along with possibly, some more DMs... I hope to pick that up, too).

I do sincerely hope we can move to a single platform as time goes on. I don't care which it is, really... the platform is just a vehicle used to get to fun.

I do feel that united direction is important.

[White Warlock]

Hi AL,

The first part quoted, it seems you completely misunderstood. I ask that you read it again. At no point did i state NWN2 persons were blaming NWN1 persons. I was stating an irrational fear that having two platforms would 'split' the player/talent base, with this fear helping to undermine the ALFA NWN1 member base, and thus undermine the ALFA NWN2 member base.

The second part quoted, you indicated that those who were upset express themselves, instead of people who don't know. Well, i think it is important to point out i have over 10 PMs, sitting in my forum folder, from disgruntled NWN1 members. It is not appropriate for me to state exactly what they stated, nor who they are. I presented their 'general' issues as best I could. What i wrote was not an ignorant post from a speculator, but an informed post from an insider. I do not think it would be wise to dismiss it merely because i am the one who wrote it.

[Hialmar]

I think we admins should have told and told again that we were supporting both platforms and that ALFA was first and foremost about roleplaying.

My point on the NWN1 vs NWN2 debate is that infrastructure wise NWN1 is well supported and works well while we have quite a lot of problems with NWN2.

Now I can understand that people felt abandoned because most of admins' attention was on NWN2 but once we have a fully functional NWN2 ALFA I'm fairly sure that admins attention will be on thinking for the future for both platforms.

Oh and I as well think NWN1 will last longer than NWN2.

Now about the 1.69 thingy, why not just support it as a third platform (or maybe fourth if you take into account PbP) ?
It will allow even more PCs for our members without any problems of metagaming if we state than NWN1 MkII ALFA is using a different timeline.

I can create a new vault for NWN1 MkII in a matter of minutes.

[Misty]

If anyone else has felt like Misty in this scenario, perhaps you should really look into just what is getting your nose out of joint, and if it's really a reason worth fighting for.

These were brought up as background points. I agree that by themselves, they're nonissues. When it began, as with any major issue, it begins with small things. Things not big enough by themselves to raise any strong feelings, but annoy and fester.


I also wish to clarify that I'm not jealous of those who can play NWN2. I think it's wonderful. I really am glad there's great fun and RP to be had there. I look forward to finding out for myself in a few years, when other reasons force an upgrade to my system. I fully believe by then the NWN2 platform will have most the kinks worked out of it. I even wrote out an elaborate tiered quest for one of the NWN2 servers. Sadly, that server stagnated and suffered. Think it hides in the bowels of the project.

I don't even want there to be a schism. I like where I'm playing quite a bit, I wouldn't have spent massive effort giving Shadowdale a facelift if I didn't. I sometimes pipe up when posts seem to perpetuate it, because I do think it better to point out a problem than silently bear it until breaking and leaving. On the other hand...

eh, I'm rambling. Carry on.

[Mulu]

I don't ever recall NWN1-loyal members being somehow blamed for the difficulties.

I sure do, and linked to the discussion on the first page. Here's the most exemplary statement from that thread on the issue (not to kick Cipher more, I actually like the guy, but this is the issue and his statements were the most direct):

I also believe NWN1 is siphoning energy from ALFA's NWN2 efforts, so perhaps we'll see greater enthusiasm, and certainly more focus, among our membership when/if ALFAns finally abandon the old to get in with the new.

I don't think it could have been stated any plainer than that. This is the start of the schism: The NWN2 folk, and it wasn't just Cipher he was just the most direct about it, affirmatively stating they wanted NWN1 to go away and that it was hindering their NWN2 efforts.

Other than some comments exchanged amidst this 1.69 tempest, I am not at all convinced that our "stripes" are of a color that is necessarily driving NWN1 players away.

Hard to say. We never really know why most leave, or even know for sure when they do. Membership tends to creep away silently into the night without explanation. Still, if I were an NWN1 only player, I would have been highly discouraged at the statements made over the last two years by the NWN2 builders and their cheerleaders. Realize I made some of those statements myself. In 20/20 hindsight it seems pretty obvious and awful now, but at the time it was just enthusiasm speaking. You don't have to desire to piss all over the NWN1 community to do so. They don't have to be jealous or selfish to feel left out and abandoned when there was an affirmative decision to abandon the platform by TA.

Anyway, the good news is both TA candidates seem to recognize the need to continue to support the NWN1 platform, so this appears to be a mostly resolved issue.

[Lusipher]

On the topic of advertising, we hadn't been doing a lot of that for NWN1-ALFA in years, nor have we done all that much of it for NWN2-ALFA... so again, I am not seeing how this amounts to some sort of betrayal of the NWN1-loyal contingent.

I dont know about for years since I havent been around for the past year or two, but I know we havent recently. I was told we were waiting for ALFA to get another server out for NWN2 and then do a full blown ad campaign. ALFA1 wasnt on anyones radar that I know of before, but Ive stated a lot that we would be glad to work with the NWN1 Dms and have them use NWC to post DM times and campaigns. This in turn, would have new players come to ALFA and use the applications process or OAS to get into ALFA. The fact that the OAS1 is by appointment only is a major concern. If we start to garner more NWN1 interest we need the server going with stocked NWN1 OAS DMs to bring in new players. We cant have it by appointment only.

If we want to expand the NWN1 playerbase I suggest we have some folks who have NWN1 to volunteer to help out on the OAS1. I agree that the NWN1 community can go on for years, but some folks dedicated to that game need to help out bringing new players in. The PR team is a tool to use..so let us help you out, but we need your help as well.