Stop Hating on the Tavern RP

[mogonk]

My favorite ad hoc session began in a tavern. It involved Castano, and oil wrestling. That is all that ever need be said on the subject.

Where does this idea come from that adventure happens outside the city walls? Cities are full of people. There is absolutely nothing more interesting. I've run PnP campaigns that took place entirely in one city. If you're looking to do something like "You encounter a roving band of orcs, roll initiative", then yes, that doesn't work in a tavern. "Spot check to see if you notice the ankheg chewing on your leg" isn't appropriate.

But the most interesting adventure hooks seem more fitting to a tavern or other urban setting. "You observe a pickpocket plying his trade on a fat merchant". Does the PC expose him? Pickpocket the pickpocket? Follow him into the alley and threaten to tell the guards unless he gets a cut? I would like to play in any one of those scenarios. That's not an epic quest or an extraordinary circumstance, that's just the kind of thing that must happen all the time, but that we don't get to interact with without a DM. It doesn't come across as contrived at all.

Maybe the police state of Silverymoon is an exception. Not versed on the lore. But it's hard for me to believe anything could pose a serious barrier to adventure hooks in a scenario where the PCs are surrounded by thousands of people with wants, needs, secrets and fears. That's the stuff adventures are made of.

Take the pickpocket situation above. Maybe he works for a criminal network, and tipping off the guards earns the PCs a bounty on their heads. Or maybe it turns out he was stealing to afford medicine for his sick child. Do the PCs have a change of heart and try to free him? Maybe when the PCs follow him out back and demand a payoff, he refuses and lunges for them with a knife. They kill him...just as a guard comes around the corner. Do they submit to being arrested? A trial ensues, during which the PCs friends desperately scour the underworld of the city, looking for some evidence that can prove the criminal character of the thief and vindicate their companion. Or do they flee arrest? Wanted by all the city guards, the PCs must adopt disguises and live in fear that a DM will log on and make a successful spot check for a nearby guard. Bounty hunters are dispatched. Mayhem ensues.

That innocuous incident wasn't an adventure hook, it was a campaign hook. Obviously, it's as big or as small as you want to make it, but you're only ever as limited as your imagination.

[Keryn]

I think Jayde made a prety good point regarding the comparison with PnP tavern RP and what we often find IG.

In Pnp you will many times end up a session and drop it at such a meeting point and it is easy to understand the need to talk and organize for the next step in a journey that you know where your coming from and where your going or at least you should have a hint to what should be your next step. In this sense tavern RP becomes what I think it should be, a moment where PCs talk about their deeds, their acomplishments, where they organize, and talk about the next step, "in between" adventuring.

And this is where I think most complains come from, when the feeling is adventuring is left behind to favor sitting in a tavern RPing and focused in social RP rather then in adventures, passed events, or troubles that may be arising in the area.

It is also easier for a DM, and this is obvious to find a group in the midle of the wilds, or in a road and start some trouble, rather then coming up in that precise moment with a way to break in a tavern and cause some sort of trouble to drag players out. Actually, looking at this in other perspective, how many times have you tried to isolate yourself because you need to get some RP done that is needed to your PC and a DM got in the way? Funny how it is, but I come to think that if PCs look for a secure location and get RP going in there, they are or may also looking for a place to RP undisturbed in order to get it done.

Bottom down, if you want to be DMed it is simply easier to be out there, rather then closed inside a place that will simply make things hard on the DM. Not impossible but just harder. Also ad hoc sessions, have no planning, and DMs may be willing to DM folks everyday, but somedays it is simply easier to come up with stuff, and some other days the creativity is just not there, and if the players give you something to work with things flow more easily.

[JaydeMoon]

I'd like to note for Mogonk that:

A) Being outside of a tavern does not necessarily mean being out in the wilds.

City streets, alleys, and wandering are not 'being in the tavern'.

B) Tavern RP in ALFA is, again, different from Tavern RP in PnP in that PCs generally select a 'nicer' tavern and then 'take it over'. Also, the amount of times these PCs can be found in said tavern, it just becomes, in the end, a bit contrived to have yet another "pickpocket plying his trade on a fat merchant". Well, let's spice it up. Today he's a skinny merchant. Or, oh no, it's another fellow come in with yet another story about how his wife/son/daughter/fiancee/orangutan was kidnapped by someone. Or yet another guy with another thing he wants people to grab for him real quick, because, hey, he 'heard this was the place where I could find adventurers (mercenaries)'.

Sorry, but these adventurers are in the tavern EVERYDAY. You want armor to be realistic and slow people down because it's heavy? How about the realistic situations of something interesting doesn't just pop into the same tavern for the same people time and time and time and time again?

That said, once more:

1. If I want to run an adventure tonight and everyone is in the tavern, then that's just where it's gonna start. So there's really no argument.

2. I'm more likely to run something for people who take initiative than people who do not. Whether they're in a tavern, wandering the wilds, or chatting up the locals... whatever.

[Galadorn]

So, here's some facts i've learned:

People or groups already out in the wilds are more lilkely to get DM attention.

DMs would rather drop encounters on said groups (out in the wilds already) than "try to think up" new/interesting RP ways to initiate DM'd sessions with PCs who are already engaged in RP in taverns.

Additionally.....
Players are encouraged to send tells to let each other to know where they are on the servers, or to decide on a meta-gained place to "meet up", so they can get together to RP (or adventure).

Players(PCs) after a little while playing on the same server, end up knowing a "most commonly frequented" place where PCs are found 80% of the time, so avoid the meta tells to meet elsewhere.


My question is:

If Players are encouraged to send tells to meet each other somewhere...

How about... if a bunch of players are in a tavern... and a DM enters the server... why can't the DM send a tell telling one of the players in the tavern to use an appropriate excuse to round up a few others and head down "Road X" or "Road Y"... If the DM is just not in the mood to pop an NPC and RP the "hiring" of the group to go to "Road X"... then just use the tried and true method... like players do to meet up...

Send us a tell and TELL us to get off our butts and hit the Road!

For that matter, even a shout would be most effective.



Tavern RP <love triangle>,

RP <talk about cave hunt yesterday>,

RP <blah blah blah fun fun blah blah>

DM enters server, sees 4 PCs in tavern all in "General Hospital" mode,

DM sets up a blood trail off a road north of town, lets blood trail lead to a cave, in cave is a half dead rogue Owlbear who dragged a caravan of travelers to his den,

DM sends one Private tell to one of the PCs:
"Pull out a letter you wrote to your lover/aunt/sister/patron/horse/donkey/or/mule and ask the others to escort you safely to the next community North of town, tell them it's important, blah blah blah whatever"

or even this:

DM lets loose a shout:
"DM session North of town"

Players already know DM Shouts are OOC anyway.... so they all ignore the shout for I-C purposes,

PCs immediately or gradually make their way Northward for whatever reason.

Result: DM lets players decide... 99% will go and we all know it. DM gets to set up whatever cool mini-session he/she wants wherever he/she wants it to be outside of the safety of town and players' precious tavern RP haven of soap-opera boredom.


...but of course...y'all already do this anyway.


That's why I love ye.

[CloudDancing]

I've done all the above before. It's best not to do the same thing everytime to avoid favoritism, but I find using other DMs who are players OR older leader types is more intuitive. Presending missives and messages IC is very much easier than OC "hey you, get over to High Hold, you have a craving for waffles at the Angler Inn."

But this is also why we have NPCs. I mean I don't sit around and think "oh this is cheesy and ill contrived" if Linda suddenly gets a message that her cousin at the Hawk's Nest is under siege or that two exhausted guards show up and start drinking heavily after searching for a missing child.

What is most important is that get the players up and on their feet and on the move in short time. And that means sometimes, you have to break character a little, drop your intense conversation of soap opera proportions, and get up on your feet.

Nothing breaks a DM's spirit more than to provide an IC enticement and watch your character simply sit on their butt and refuse to move. Fear and IC concerns aside, don't make PC's that don't play well with others or make your PC find some reason TO play with others. You can sit on your butt and avoid people and never leave the house in real life. Roleplaying that seems really really....stupid. Even evil PCs I have met still manage to get along with other players, adventure, and have the wherewithall to appear benign.

Ultimately this is why others have pointed out why campaigns and scheduled Dm times (like ours at 2pm today) are preferred over random Dming.

Random DMing is fun and off the cuff but...

1. It does not respect that at least half of our players have real lives, kids, and families that demand that their time be compartmentalized. It is much easier to have your key people when Daddy or Mommy or Dommy can say "from 2pm to 4pm Saturday, it's my time to play online and you can make me clean the gutters after."

2. You want the key players, you need to be able to have them pre-plan where they will be when you are ready for them. Those in the Dwarf campaign, due to the span of TSM, head up to Felbar the night before the game for example.

3. Dms need an hour to plan before a big adventure on server especially if they things they needs are not ready as they expected. And of course the consistent stream of tells from players unaware of this fact must be dealth with.

4. As a DM, due to time zones, you will probably only really get to play with one or two groups of players that fit your prime time. It's not playing favorites. But if that group exceeds 6-8 players, you will find yourself mired in tells. Scheduling allows you to decide who that group will be and of course that they will be exactly where you need them when you need them.

[oldgrayrogue]

I think the point of some of the posts in this thread is that its just easier for the DM to ad hoc an event if groups are already out and about . Yes, DMs can get imaginative, send out shouts etc etc, but lets try to make it easier for them if that is what they prefer. Who knows, it might actually be more fun than the tavern soap opera ? =)

[Rotku]

Ultimately this is why others have pointed out why campaigns and scheduled Dm times (like ours at 2pm today) are preferred over random Dming.

Random DMing is fun and off the cuff but..

There are pros and cons. You get everyone DMing only to a schedule and you'll soon find players will only log in at X, Y and Z times - this means it's really difficult for new players, not to mention players who can't regularly commit to a specific time slot. In an ideal world we'd have both some scheduled play and a lot of ad hoc DMing, to keep both worlds amused. However, there's too few DMs to please everyone so in the end of the day it comes down to those who do volunteer to DM to dictate what style they prefer.

[Castano]

TY Cloud for this:

"Nothing breaks a DM's spirit more than to provide an IC enticement and watch your character simply sit on their butt and refuse to move. Fear and IC concerns aside, don't make PC's that don't play well with others or make your PC find some reason TO play with others. You can sit on your butt and avoid people and never leave the house in real life. Roleplaying that seems really really....stupid. Even evil PCs I have met still manage to get along with other players, adventure, and have the wherewithall to appear benign."

To many times I see scheduled sessions grind to a halt for 30-45 mins of RP that is essentially useless to the DM and to the plot, but fun for the players...unfortunately we have yet to invent a 24/7 DM who can keep a plot straight across a PW (i'll let you know when we find one)...so when they are on..find an IC way to drop what you are doing, be it character development, social RP, etc. and join the game (or leave off and not join).

[Killthorne]

Sorry, but these adventurers are in the tavern EVERYDAY. You want armor to be realistic and slow people down because it's heavy? How about the realistic situations of something interesting doesn't just pop into the same tavern for the same people time and time and time and time again?

If you wonder why people are in the tavern interacting with each other: it's because they are generally ignored for their character concepts, they don't have any solid story arc going on, and because you can only wander down the same road so many times in one day looking for an adventure plot when there's none to be had . Do you really believe we love to sit in taverns all day long?

I think anyone who says "I like sitting in the tavern and to ignore DM's" is quite the rare player. If something important kept my PC busy outside Silverymoon and gave her purpose, she would stay away from the tavern and away from lounging around doing absolutely nothing conducive to any progression of a plot, or character progression.

If there are no meaningful challenges, then how do you expect players to feel arsed? This is not a chicken before the egg metaphor. The DM definitely comes first, before the player in terms of story, if you want anything to evolve. You can't bend spoons with your mind.

~Killy~

[danielmn]

You can't bend spoons with your mind.

~Killy~

Sez Joo!

[Mirabai]

If you wonder why people are in the tavern interacting with each other: it's because they are generally ignored for their character concepts, they don't have any solid story arc going on, and because you can only wander down the same road so many times in one day looking for an adventure plot when there's none to be had . Do you really believe we love to sit in taverns all day long?

I think anyone who says "I like sitting in the tavern and to ignore DM's" is quite the rare player. If something important kept my PC busy outside Silverymoon and gave her purpose, she would stay away from the tavern and away from lounging around doing absolutely nothing conducive to any progression of a plot, or character progression.

If there are no meaningful challenges, then how do you expect players to feel arsed? This is not a chicken before the egg metaphor. The DM definitely comes first, before the player in terms of story, if you want anything to evolve. You can't bend spoons with your mind.

~Killy~

Feel free to step up and volunteer to script new static quests, build areas, and DM to provide the IG community with the meaningful challenges you desire.

This is a volunteer community, kept running on the hard work of the few. I'm sorry some of you are frustrated but the bottom line is, if you can't be bothered to step up and do something to improve the place, then quit whining. Whining and sniping only serves to de-motivate those of us who are doing the work.

[danielmn]

If you wonder why people are in the tavern interacting with each other: it's because they are generally ignored for their character concepts, they don't have any solid story arc going on, and because you can only wander down the same road so many times in one day looking for an adventure plot when there's none to be had . Do you really believe we love to sit in taverns all day long?

I think anyone who says "I like sitting in the tavern and to ignore DM's" is quite the rare player. If something important kept my PC busy outside Silverymoon and gave her purpose, she would stay away from the tavern and away from lounging around doing absolutely nothing conducive to any progression of a plot, or character progression.

If there are no meaningful challenges, then how do you expect players to feel arsed? This is not a chicken before the egg metaphor. The DM definitely comes first, before the player in terms of story, if you want anything to evolve. You can't bend spoons with your mind.

~Killy~

Feel free to step up and volunteer to script new static quests, build areas, and DM to provide the IG community with the meaningful challenges you desire.

This is a volunteer community, kept running on the hard work of the few. I'm sorry some of you are frustrated but the bottom line is, if you can't be bothered to step up and do something to improve the place, then quit whining. Whining and sniping only serves to de-motivate those of us who are doing the work.

*coughs*
http://www.alandfaraway.org/forums/view ... 90&t=44970
*coughs*

Totally did not see that one coming.

[JaydeMoon]

Blah blah blah, I feel like

In order to not feel like

And to address some very valid points in a hopefully constructive way, I shall endeavor to write up a post with some things we can do, as well as check in with Hialmar on some possible forum changes that may be helpful.

[Killthorne]

Feel free to step up and volunteer to script new static quests, build areas, and DM to provide the IG community with the meaningful challenges you desire.

This is a volunteer community, kept running on the hard work of the few. I'm sorry some of you are frustrated but the bottom line is, if you can't be bothered to step up and do something to improve the place, then quit whining. Whining and sniping only serves to de-motivate those of us who are doing the work.

I have DM'ed and built stuff in the past. Thinking about doing it again when I feel out the next semester and the work load from a job and school.

And who is whining and sniping? I am just making a comment about why people are in the taverns when a DM logs in and sees that we might be there. Just plain simple truth laid right out on the table for you. It has nothing to do with being ungrateful for what time we get with a DM, or ignorant of the work they do. I thank DM's every time they choose to toy with me, or us.. or whatever.

The only thing that ever de-motivated me from doing the "work" of a DM was the politics outside of the game. Otherwise, it was nothing but fun stuff. Even the tedious building.

~Killy~

[Ithildur]

To tavern or not to tavern... this thread confirms my suspicions that the creative juices currently might not be flowing quite the way they used to. ALFA always had shyte going down whether in tavern or out in the wilds or in someone's chamberpot, with or without weapons drawn.

Make it so; once more into the breach!