Ethics and Morality

[danielmn]

*eyes Kill with a pitchfork and torch*

And what sir, if I may ask, are you hiding? If you have nothing to hide, you would have no problem with this.... ARE YOU A TERRERIST!?!?! TAP HIS PHONES!

[Killthorne]

Believe it or not, I usually watch what I say in-game most of the time anyways. Someone told me that DM's could read your private messages since I had returned... it bothered, and still bothers me that this is an okay practice.

I have usually, nothing to hide. If I only have inklings on some action that bothers me, I'll voice my opinion in a general sense. If I have a direct problem with an individual, you can bet I'll be speaking with them. And also, I may dislike certain people based on what they say and do and I know I cannot change their perceptions, or actions. So, like any other normal human being, I may vent my frustrations to an understanding ear. It's truly no one else's business. And that's all about the privacy I seek and should expect.

~Killy~

[NESchampion]

If it's alright to log people's private messages in-game, then there is justification for the right to take private messages in IRC and post them for all to see. You are right, ALFA is no government, but it tries to act like one. It states ( or used to) in our "constitution" somewhere, I believe, that private messages in IRC should remain private... so why not in-game?

~Killy~

There's a difference between privately logging all communication on a server and displaying those communications publicly for anyone to see. Conflating the two doesn't serve to help your argument.

If logging tells is a concern because of potential abuse by DMs, then a middle ground needs reaching. The alternative that you've advanced to require players to submit their own logs puts the burden on players and any requirement for players to log is going to lead to situations where they failed to set it up properly, or deleted the logs, or just refuse to send the logs in. Until recently I couldn't even get logging working after hours of messing with permissions.

A more reasonable solution in my view is to require any DM wanting access to logging of tells to have HDM and possibly PA approval, and for it to be known to all that Tells are logged by the server.

There are a million ways to discuss private matters outside the server without any risk of DMs ever being able to abuse them without the intervention of the person receiving the messages; emails, IRC, instant messengers, skype, etc. I don't see a problem with servers logging tells any more than I see a problem with servers logging whispers, though I am curious as to what brought up this topic to begin with.

[rorax]

Personally, i am not bothered by anything. Violence scenes or erotic scenes, i think if something fit to the situation anything can go without any censors.


With that, i guess i can understand why some people are concerned. I am not entirely sure that as a parent i would be very happy to know that my 12 years old girl is logging into fantasy role playing game and exposed to cyber sex(call me old fashion, but to know my teenage girl is cybering with adult men(or women) scare me). I guess i would have the same feeling if she will be exposed to extreme violence or torture scenes...

My suggestion is that when there is going to be some extreme scene, warning by players and dm to people involved should be given, so each one will decide for himself if he wants to take part. (A bit like PVP warning)


As a official "definition" for ALFA , i think it should be AO(18+), as extreme scenes should always be an option. Just out of the box idea....some ogres(males or females) sodomizing Garlus , that's pretty hardcore....

[Killthorne]

After some consideration, all I want is some sort of clarification as to what might be considered confidential and a big signpost for everyone stating that private messages are not private in-game.

Everyone needs to be cautious and mistrusting in making private messages in-game, as well as out. Suppose there's enough truth in that belief.

~Killy~

[dirsa]

Everyone needs to be cautious and mistrusting in making private messages in-game, as well as out. Suppose there's enough truth in that belief.

well... i for one think there's a big difference between cautious and mistrusting.

should you ever type anything you'd not want to be repeated out loud in any online media to a person you don't really know? no! that would be the cautious part. or more like simply having a realistic view of the world part.

should you view every person as a potential peeping tom? well, you could, if you're paranoid. two things to keep in mind. firstly - why would you want to associate yourself with a bunch of people you don't trust? secondly - sheer volume of logged text would make it somewhat unreasonable to find anything interesting, unless you know what you're looking for. logging of everything by your isp, google, company you work for, and just about every service you use online is usually done to cover ones butt or study general trends, not to read up on what did someone had for dinner the other night...

[CloudDancing]

Back to Killthorne's thoughts here.

I personally believe reading server logs and misinterpretations ruined my relationship with a good DM.

Another good DM I know on Exo told me FLAT OUT they read the server logs in way to say, yes we know what you are doing and it is fine with us, ((BUT WE KNOW so don't just pull silly stuff out of your rear and claim it is RP.))

As per logs:

First the HDM can read it, find and replace can basically jump you to any "keyword" in a log and bam content or a user name or a action or whatever.

Second, your so-called "buddy" in your RP can take THEIR log and paste it to friends, make fun of you, claim to hate what they are doing (and keep doing it?), and humiliate you LATER if things happen to go bad between you two. Heck they can even cut out selected parts and slander you to their little hearts delight.

Third, the invisible third party person (DM or otherwise), whether sitting by a badly formatted wall, hiding in plain sight, or invisible can spy on whatever you are doing and record and do whatever they want with it.

The HDM having a server log is a good thing in the end. First it is a nightmare to read a log without a reason like searching for info. But if a case comes up player vs player or Dm vs player, the logs are there.

I don't think TELLS are relevant in investigations (outside of the big list of metagaming sins.) They are private conversations, should be limited when a DM is on and with you, and sometimes can even be used to vent. More often though its a bit of comic relief than anything, something that is part of AD&D as much as anything with a table top game.

[Killthorne]

firstly - why would you want to associate yourself with a bunch of people you don't trust?

That is life, actually. I associate with many people everyday ( at work, in class, at the bus-stop, etc.), that I would never trust and have given me rather good reasons not to. That goes for people with access to my private conversations with people, too. Same goes for any organization that deems itself important enough to be able to pry. I'll not sacrifice all of my liberty and my privacy, for security. Don't know about anybody else.

As for what started all this? I was pondering about mature content and how it could possibly be used in PM's, and that I know that DM's can read PM's so that would be rather pointless. And then that overflowed into other areas of privacy that I view as important.

I hate being restricted in speech, especially in a place that I should consider fun and relaxed. I do not wish anything I say to someone in a tell be taken, spilled to some other source, misconstrued, and so forth. I place trust in the person I speak to. I want to be able to hold my sources of confidentiality accountable for that. I can't if there is no means for keeping what I discuss, private. So I guess I just won't speak to anyone in a tell, in-game, about anything else but the game. Because I have very little trust in the system and in the term "private message." It's just not a good feeling to have. And that's all I have to say on it.

~Killy~

[NESchampion]

As for what started all this? I was pondering about mature content and how it could possibly be used in PM's, and that I know that DM's can read PM's so that would be rather pointless. And then that overflowed into other areas of privacy that I view as important.

I guess I really don't understand the reasoning behind this whole thread. As far as I know nothing has been changed recently in regards to tells or privacy or anything like that; yet your post at the start comes out swinging like shit has hit the fan, especially when you lead off with a statement like "there are two shifty, authoritarian moves that are being made and have been made on the players". I started checking all the other forums to see if I had missed some decision being made, but nothing stands out. Can you elaborate on these moves?

[Killthorne]

Can you elaborate on these moves?

Yes, there is talk of banning previously mentioned mature content ( in reference to the Age Poll). And there is talk from people rather displeased with that idea. It's authoritarian because it's biased as to what is moral. It's shifty because no one wants to just talk about it up-front, as they'd rather beat around the bush, so to speak. As for the logging of PM's, there is no indication anywhere in these forums that this is going on, other than through conversation between players. I would have never known if someone hadn't told me.

There really should be some sort of important post somewhere, so new players have an idea of what is taking place. And in my mind, there needs to be something laid out in terms of policy regarding PM's, just so there are no loopholes or abuses.

I am sticking up ( or coming out swinging as you say ) for the ideals concerning ethics and morality that I believe in, and I'm speaking up about it. I am bringing out these two touchy subjects that bother me, out in the open, and that's all.

I think we all know players who enjoy adult-themed, consenting role-play. I am not so much defending their interests, as I am defending everyone's pursuits in enjoying ALFA as they see fit without fear of having some DM pulling up logs, or logging in to kick them out/ban them for content that the DM is disinterested in, or dislikes. If you don't like cyb0r, fine, you don't have to. If you don't like torture scenes, that's good, you are entitled. However, the door should swing both ways.

I am also fighting for the belief that most of us are adults here.

~Killy~

[Castano]

No one wants to read anyone's PMs, IMs, tells, posts etc. unless there is an issue of harrassment or potentially illegal conduct on the system. I can imagine such situations where the sys admin of a computer system would unfortunately want to...or in some instance be required to turn over such logs. Telling admins they cannot look for it or other harrassment is bogus, we have the right to verify accounts instead of leaving it to self submitted "logs" which are really just text cut and pastes and quickly decend into he said she said and accusations of doctored files.

You should know a sys admin can read any message on any system if they wish, the option is there with a few clicks. Forums PMs included. The people at gmail can read your e-mail. These systems autogenerate logs and store messages. What some of you are asking for is a free for all on someone else's hardware.

i'm with NES here..nothing has changed with regard to logging...we always logged data off the servers..I mean we auto log how much gp your PC earns. I have suggested logging tells, like other game communities some of us play on *cough* [redacted] do, but am not a fan of it. The threat however is there..if i keep hearing 3rd and 4th hand about inappropriate treatment of our players.

I am firmly of the opinion we stick a mature content warning on the place similar to the labeling GTA uses and be done with it. We have rules in place for OOC consent for mature themes. People should read them and follow, esp if you are doing really edgy stuff like non-consensual RP. Screenshot your consent too - please. That goes double for DMs running plots with themes like kidnapping torture etc...

I don't want to restrict a pirate faction from being umm piratey for example...pirates are evil..they do bad stuff like kidnap people etc.

This is being done because we are starting to see a flurry of complaints relating to mature RP....I want to spend my time playing, building and DMing, not babysitting "Adults".

So if you really really need to have a private conv. about something...use an IRC channel. You will of course be subject to whatever logging they do. Game communciations really should be about RP, not OOC (and the GUI for tells sucks anyway - I never understood carrying on a conv. in that window when irc is right there).

[Kemeras]

Question: is the option to log Private Tells even an option? i.e. is this something that is just logged without any ability to turn it off/on?

I can completely understand logging all communications on the server since most of the reasons for doing it are legitimate reasons (log of all RP between all players is open for any DM to read since they do need to know what is going on).

I *always* assume everything is being logged (it is btw, your ISP knows exactly what you are doing IF anyone bothered to check...we used to laugh about Gay Porn DMCA requests coming in, since you HAD to look up the users account info and verify if the ip was leased to them during the time period...but that was only for internal use to CYA the ISP, we NEVER released that info to the RIAA or MIAA, etc).

That's the key bit there, checking, someone has to have a reason to check.

The truth of the matter is the honor system actual does work, anywhere from 96-98 % of people will follow it (read Freakonomics for more info on this, truely an awesome book). The problem is dealing with the 2-4% that will not follow the honor system and use the information to their advantage.

Killy: My take on the age poll was the reverse, that they actually want to ditch the PG13 (which I personally always thought was odd, hell Kemeras did some DAMN funky stuff back in NWN1 and it WAS AWESOME!!)

At least from the number of 25+ that was my take away, could be wrong but would like to see that formally removed.

Killy, we could have some long fun conversations sometime, I am a Canadian and the effect has been quite as bad up here but the same 'forces' (and I use that term more in the sense of a force of nature) are going to work up here.

Security is always a trade off on Liberty, the real key is making sure we get massive value for any voluntary loss of liberty (we are definitely not as a society right now, you guys are getting so screwed by the TSA, it's next to worthless).

Ouch sorry got stuck on a tangent

Killy, my recommendation and I live my life this way.... Don't live in what ifs or could be's etc, live in the now and be who you are going to be screw everyone else If they got a problem with me, we deal with it or someone moves on... Life is too short, too stressful to get hung up on 'watching' myself.

Be a cold day in hell when I start doing that....

When it comes right down to it, YOU are a damn fine RPer and a pleasure to play with.

Peace BRAAAAAAAAA !! (lol couldn't help it, I don't actually speak that way).

[Killthorne]

The threat however is there..if i keep hearing 3rd and 4th hand about inappropriate treatment of our players.

First off, a player being harassed should just outright state to the harasser: " Hey, I don't care for that too much and would appreciate it if you not contact me again." Print screen, and/or log that statement. If it continues, then anyone with some form of authority around here should hear it and see it firsthand. And yes, no one needs to be babysitting "adults," aka "sifting through logs for incriminating tells."

If anyone is having a problem with another player, all you have to do is print screen a good portion of it out for others to read.

we always logged data off the servers..I mean we auto log how much gp your PC earns. I have suggested logging tells, like other game communities some of us play on *cough* [redacted] do, but am not a fan of it.

I know, I have pulled up server logs before back in NWN1 as an HDM. But PM's never showed up on the logs. I never wanted to see something like that on my logs anyways. It was none of my business.

~Killy~

[Killthorne]

Hiya Kemeras!

Yeah, I'm not really biting at anyone in particular. The talk outside the game just rubs me the wrong way is all. I have a hard time dealing with "big brother" styled groups telling people what is right and wrong and keeping their ever-watchful eye on everything.... (frakkin' Helmites! ) I would join the ACLU if they weren't bat-$#!# crazy sometimes and just as invasive as the groups they strike out against.

Live and let live.

~Killy~

[danielmn]

Personally, I gathered the same motive from the age poll...the want of dropping the pg-13 and movement to a stance of what we are anyways at this point, which is more of an adult site, where peeps can do whatever as long as there is consent. Not like adult themes are the spotlight of ALFA anyway, though you'd be hardpressed to know that from glancing at IRC.