Proposal for a Charter Amendment Regarding Activity and Voti

[Heero]

Wouldnt the LA or PA actually have to agree with this before it was brought to the table? Do they?

[danielmn]

Rotku is right about one thing, please stop all the Game B bullshit - fully, now. Your Admin & HDMs are bloody tired of it. So next time you want to engage in some hissy fit with another player over irc issues or whatevers or jealousy, or farm so you can be of some uber level, please go kill each other/play on WoW.

This.

[Galadorn]

Rotku is right about one thing, please stop all the Game B bullshit - fully, now. Your Admin & HDMs are bloody tired of it. So next time you want to engage in some hissy fit with another player over irc issues or whatevers or jealousy, or farm so you can be of some uber level, please go kill each other/play on WoW.

^ best dam post evar. *claps*
Love it.

-G

[Adanu]

Game B, as it is called, like it or not, is how we get stuff done out of game.

I don't like it myself either mainly because some of the more stubborn ones ruin things al ot of the time for others... but welcome to people having different opinions.

Until everyone is the same, you're not going to see the arguments go away.

[maxcell]

Rotku is right about one thing, please stop all the Game B bullshit - fully, now. Your Admin & HDMs are bloody tired of it. So next time you want to engage in some hissy fit with another player over irc issues or whatevers or jealousy, or farm so you can be of some uber level, please go kill each other/play on WoW.

[CloudDancing]

I have a questio:

Is this about Hialmar? I think the guy does a pretty good job despite not having logged in during the past year and a half. Do you really want to toss him out?

I agree, this part made me feel conflicted. He does a really good job administrating the forums just like Zelk does a good job running the Tech department.

Neither of them exactly benefit from active interaction with players persay. And it would be easy for them to do their jobs w/o direct server-side player interaction since any big issue they deal with come to them via pms and forum posts ideally. Really, it is a problem because there are four or five people involved and have been in the long term, that really are in that same position where they have given and given, but get so little back, and don't get much of a chance to play either.

But I actually worry about volunteers who volunteer but have no "payoff" because the whole point of volunteering is to support playing or dm-ing. Every office from PA to LA to Infrastructure and so on IS so we can all play and play in a moderated environment of respect and of course, adventure.

Active players should have the strongest voice and the most power in the community because they are both possessing interest, but also possessing momentum and excitement in the purpose of this whole enterprise which is covered in the pillars.

But naturally for those who have worked hard and long at this, there is a certain natural proprietary connection to the entity that *is* and a sense that this all is a monument to those who have left, their memories, and to those that never really return.

So really is a question of what our attachments are? If we are too attached this whole affair it makes it easy to grip the wheel firmly, lock it in position, and go along the safest and most protected path. If you are not attached enough, the wheel spins free and who knows where you will end up, hung up on a reef, or stranded on a desert island alone?

Where is the gentle touch, the middle ground that both recognizes that it is in the best interest for player related positions to be put in the hands of the players, yet still respect the contributions and monuments to those who came before but have left the player/dm role?

[Rotku]

If we are going to start forcing our own preferences and priorities on everyone else, could we please auto-retire Level 6+, remove all PrCs and ECL races? Oh, and then I'd like a personal DM, please.

[Edit] Ooooo! I've got an even better idea! We should make it so that your time allowed in game playing is proportional to the time you spend helping the community in another way. You spend two hours building or DMing, that earns you five hours of playing. Think how much more DMing and change there would be in the community! All those new areas and plots. Boy, ALFA would thrive.

[Stormbring3r]

Ok.. I have a few words to say..

As a Volunteer Fire Chiefyou cannot force any volunteer to do anything. Hence the term volunteer.

Halimar has helped my since I rejoined so he is active...

If he does not get paid to do his job and is a volunteer...again..

This is a Volunteer community. If you keep up crap like this no one will want to VOLUNTEER!

Anyways..

Have a nice day

Note: this was edited before posting because peeps who do not and will not look at the big picture just makes me mad.

[Stormseeker]

Less rules=More fun. As long as they are doing something i don't care if they never get in game.

[Stormbring3r]

*raises hand*ooo ooo I have one..

How bout make all toon level bajillion and give them phat lewt as well... oooooo even better make them DM themselves....

[danielmn]

Diablos advocatos: Counterarguement, If it isn't broken, don't fix it.

A. Proposal needs substantive data supporting that a voting change is necessarry or wanted for the community (suggest getting with Veilan on the election/voting of active/inactive members over the last year as well as the effect inactive members had on those elections, perhaps wait a week before doing so as he is engaged in other serious matters atm).

B. Proposal needs substantive data supporting administration change when deemed necessarry (suggests research into how often we've had admin just disappear off the map, and what was done about that, and how that process can be changed for the better)

C. Proposal needs substantive data supporting ineffectual staff/staff not present. (suggests research into how often staff members from any dept have gone extended lengths away from the community, and if that has had any impact on the quality of the staffs work as a whole)

[Hialmar]

I have a proposal: someone comes to my home and takes care of my daughter while I play or DM.

Seriously, if people care enough for this community to come to the forums and vote in elections but don't have time enough to play or DM, why would you want to shoo them away ?

Anyway, if someone wants to remove my right to vote they will have to find someone to replace me for the work I do for the community.

[wvincenti]

Wow, this devolved into an old-fashioned bit of unpleasantness. *sighs*

So really Cloud, what are the problems you and other members are talking about?
What you've posted as a reason for the proposal isn't clear.

-Bill

Hi Cloud,
I've just gotten back in game after a long absence. What are the trends being reported?

-Bill

[CloudDancing]

This is a working draft and with a request for logical input NOT emotional histronics (which I think I aptly laid out IF you read the last two posts assuming positive intent.)

I will restate this from my last post, LOGICALLY NO ONE would consider the active web master who is actively web mastering inactive because it is not a player-related post.

If you examine it is just that sense of being attached and the proprietary nature talking; that sense of ownership of something that cannot really be owned and who's intent was to be built, administrated, and managed by active players in response to autocratic worlds that are administrated over by crazy dictatorships, again who cling to illusions they own some part of NWN2 when legally it is simply impossible.

How do you moderate a collective dream? It might be better to ask "how do you moderate a collective D&D game?"
There are very few people that come to the table and just sit there for six months to a year and return to consciousness, demanding to be DM or to rewrite the entire game, or to take leadership of a group. It would be rude.

However it is not a fair situation if players whom are effected by player related offices do get their active status recognized in the simple logic that IF you play, the whom that administers that play should be chosen by those that do play. And it recognizes candidates whom have the best relationship with the active players and who can treat them both as individuals, and as a group with special needs for that group. It's really easy to log in three times a month and spend an hour doing whatever it is you like to do and HEALTHY for an admin to do so.

To respond to any player who makes a logical argument with "you suck, I like the status quo" in so many ill-chosen words really defeats the purpose of even attempting to have some sort of democratic society with a free and fair exchange of ideas.

From this idea may come a better understanding for me and for others why things are the way the are, in this case an "old boys" club situation in the Admin where since I have been here not one newer player (in three years) has been voted into an office vs players returning from long (up to six year absences) being rewarded (some in just a month from return) entire servers to admin with less than optimal results on at least two occasions and voted into Admin offices in which they did not perform their duties in the least or to the least possible level. You can say it ain't so, but very few who protest so much were not even here.

I'd enjoy it if others reflected on this appropriately.

[Blindhamsterman]

Cloud, I think the reason that folk that haven't been here all that long don't get voted into positions is because less people know them. But if said person stands and runs for a position a second time they might have a higher chance of being voted in due to likely being better known.

Likewise, the reason people that have been here longer get voted in is often because they're better known.

If I wasn't feeling a little hung over I'd go through the various voting threads for each admin position to see who ran and who was voted in and collate a bit of data (something which as Dan pointed out, has not been done yet).

Off hand though, I'm unsure which positions this could be considered an issue with in recent times, DMA running has had Curmudgeon win it each time, he's had people run against him, often just as 'old' members, or at least not new members. The fact he has still won implies that the majority of people either feel he was better than the others, or took a 'ain't broke, don't fix' attitude. LA rarely has people that are new run for it, and I suspect the reason Veilan usually wins comes down to how level headed he is, he's also known by everyone here I think, sure he's a horrible German dictator, but he's our Horrible German Dictator . PA is the only position I can think of where we've had 'new' players run for it lately and in fairness, they were beaten by someone well known, whom is active as both a DM and a Player that also was head of the ALFA Reps....