Open Comment Period: PrC Approval Process

[t-ice]

We want people to log in, do stuff ingame, not simply via forum posts or pms, which are supplementary means to RP.

We totally do. But if the PC has the xp, then he has been ingame, hasn't he?

I don't see (barring maybe a few cases like an assassin or blackguard on a server full of nothing but goodie PCs) why PrC quests need to be seen as 'exclusive' rather than great hooks/opportunities to involve other PCs.

I'm all for Zyrus' evolution into a Spellsword to include a group oriented DM quest.

Of course it's possible to do a prc quest in a group. Even doing it "group oriented" is possible, although it is already close to oxymoronic: (You can do a prc quest where all PCs are equal? Did they all get a prc, then?)

But doing such a group-centric prc quests requires much more from the DM. 2 DMs burning out trying to give Ith the prc sure sounds like a case in point. And because we know players want their prcs, then prc quests are what the players want the most. By making prc quests the #1 thing players want from DMs you are making DMing harder. You're making a DM feel he let a player down when the prc didn't happen. And you're making the DM feel the player really cares most about ability X at level N.

The player's creativity and intiative needs to be focused as much as possible on group and setting oriented stories. That means away from their own character sheets, even away from their own characters. And into the setting at large. That means away from prcs. That's making DMage easier, the road to more DMage and less DM burnout.

So give the PCs the abilities, and let the players focus on stories for everyone, not something that necessitates a usually very personal and specific thing for their PC. If the prc quest is a great, inclusive story, it can get told on its own right. Without having it as a requirement for taking a pick on levelup. It still holds the same significance to the story of the PC if you decouple it from "the build".

I don't mean that I don't like to do prc quests at all, I've had great times with them. But when they are where players focus their energy and desires, it easily goes counterproductive.

[Zelknolf]

So... why not tack on "Keep a journal, play on the server where you applied for a month" to the requirements?

If time and resources exist to run quests or poke, prod, turnyourheadandcough, or whatnot on a character to evaluate their worthiness for the PrC, we run 'em then. If they don't, we do our best with journal posts and the application. Answers of "no" needn't be permanent, either; a player isn't kept out of game while we wait for approval to roll through-- we could just say "Here is some feedback on what we would like to see; your character doesn't advance on this PrC optimally, and your next level is thus a non-PrC one." and then they can try again.

And if there's a heavy RP faction-ey requirement, we warn 'em right when they put the application in. An "Oh hey, there's almost no support for red wizards right now; you probably won't get to take this PrC because there's no one available to be your 'in' to the faction" could go a long way to reducing the grumpy around PrCs-- because it at least sets the expectation early-- as could outsourcing to PCs (we have people with the stealthy PrCs, a bladesinger (inactive right now, granted, but we have one), and high-ranking members of religions in play, and they'd probably be tickled for any RP associated with those topics).

[oldgrayrogue]

Well, I have tried to come up with 2 PrC quests for players as a DM, and both times after spending tons of time creating NPCs, a story, writing it up on the DM boards . . . . the PC died while fighting static spawns.

One was you Ith, on BG way back when

This is very frustrating for DMs. If a DM can fashion an event involving other players to advance a PrC great, but players should not have any expectation that this will occur.

I play on a LoTR server right now where PrC's are awarded upon completion of a static quest. Most of the time it is a very difficult quest that takes multiple sessions to complete. Would be great if we could implement that in ALFA. Otherwise, I like the proposal of the player describing the RP that backs up the PrC and then just awarding it when they have all the prereqs.

[t-ice]

I play on a LoTR server right now where PrC's are awarded upon completion of a static quest. Most of the time it is a very difficult quest that takes multiple sessions to complete. Would be great if we could implement that in ALFA.

I would hate this. If we have a "eldritch knight initiation quest" it means every single eldritch knigth will have that central part of their story exactly the same as the last. Bland and poor RP and zero immersion. Reminds me of a PW from waaay back where every PC started as an orphan from the same orphanage.

So... why not tack on "Keep a journal, play on the server where you applied for a month" to the requirements?

Good idea, imo. Maybe not as a hard and fast rule, but a guideline example of what's expected of the RP and the documentation for the extraordinary application. Of course the "stay on server" depends on how IC is traveling for the prc, which varies.

[Brokenbone]

To OGR's point, that system in the LOTR scene is to create a History feat up in that rarely used part of the character sheet, the presence of which permits levelling into the relevant PrC. Only some of the PrCs there seem to have smart / tough requirements, like a Rider of the Riddermark custom PrC involves doing a nasty quest deep into the dungeon of some enemies of Rohan. Others though it's lame, like a Frenzied Berserker equivalent (renamed Blood Warrior) just involves slaughtering a bunch of goblins in a fairly lowbie area.

I think the idea of "approving" anything is a little bit overboard in this realm, absent some need to connect to an organization, but even that can be ignored I'd like to think. Someone, preferably Thayan, learns all the secrets of Red Wizardry but does not themselves belong to the organization, with no privileges to wear Red, he's just figured out their mojo? That might be even MORE interesting than being part of the organization, some kind of outsider / renegade, how did you get our dark secrets, maybe we will find out by torturing you and turning your brain inside out to spill the secret... Same'd go for Harper Agent, yeah you're a guy with some social skills and weird bonus feats per level, not tied to the Harpers perhaps, but boy if they ever want to recruit you, will they find you handy!

[Stormseeker]

Keep it simple. Keep a prc journal (either ingame or on special forums),meet all the requirments, then just have all the dm's vote on yes or no. If they are told no give them a reason and the hope that maybe next level they may make it. If told yes and they screw up, dm's vote and then "divine" powers step in and knock them down a level.
Personally i think that if you have been in alfa for over a year with no strikes against you....then you should be able to get prc's if you choose. But it takes a hdm(or dm with hdm approval) to level in that prc.
I find it funny that in a place where the majority of players i run across are either dm's or ex-dm's...that the lack of trust hampers our rp experience. If your good enough to be in alfa then you should be good enough for any class or race that alfa has.

[Ronan]

Suggestion:
-PrCs that require special membership or training... require special membership or training. DM sessions are still required for this unless the PC finds a PC trainer (e.g., Elenaril).
-PrCs that don't (EK, AT, MT, BG, etc.) need only a Yay/Nay from a DM, based on prior RP. The approving DM may ask for a journal if s/he's not familiar with the PC.

Really this is no different than what we have now, but currently some DMs feel they must run a multi-session special quest or some other 12-step process to approve a PrC.

[Galadorn]

Where is the already available ALFA PrC list ...I cannot find she.

[Wild Wombat]

Where is the already available ALFA PrC list ...I cannot find she.

http://www.alandfaraway.org/node/1649

*bows*

[Ithildur]

Of course it's possible to do a prc quest in a group. Even doing it "group oriented" is possible, although it is already close to oxymoronic: (You can do a prc quest where all PCs are equal? Did they all get a prc, then?)

A number of things in your post made me scratch my head, but this bit especially... what the hell does 'all PCs are equal' have to do with being part of a group session? Everyone has to get a PrC?? What??

I really didn't think I'd have to clarify, since I didn't expect people to jump to conclusions, but...

But doing such a group-centric prc quests requires much more from the DM. 2 DMs burning out trying to give Ith the prc sure sounds like a case in point...

Zomg... holy leaping assumptions used to support your view! The DMs (Viigas, JLM, Puny) dropped from the scene because of RL and other issues that had absolutely nothing to do with my PC or his PrC; in fact none of the three even once got to DM a single session that had to do with my PC and his PrC.

Regardless, there is simply no basis to automatically assume that a DM working with a PC's pursuit of a PrC means that DM cannot DM other PCs/include others in that quest in a way that is quite fun and satisfying to everyone, or that such a plot is more demanding on the DM just because it's about a PrC.

Not everyone in ALFA is 'me me me' and many if not most would very much enjoy being part of a group oriented plot that has as it's culmination (or one of the climatic points) being someone getting a PrC.

[boombrakh]

Not everyone in ALFA is 'me me me' and many if not most would very much enjoy being part of a group oriented plot that has as it's culmination (or one of the climatic points) being someone getting a PrC.

+1

[kid]

Suggestion:
-PrCs that require special membership or training... require special membership or training. DM sessions are still required for this unless the PC finds a PC trainer (e.g., Elenaril).
-PrCs that don't (EK, AT, MT, BG, etc.) need only a Yay/Nay from a DM, based on prior RP. The approving DM may ask for a journal if s/he's not familiar with the PC.

Really this is no different than what we have now, but currently some DMs feel they must run a multi-session special quest or some other 12-step process to approve a PrC.

Yes.

[Galadorn]

Not everyone in ALFA is 'me me me' and many if not most would very much enjoy being part of a group oriented plot that has as it's culmination (or one of the climatic points) being someone getting a PrC.

+1

+2

[Veilan]

I still believe that faction and race specific PrCs limit, narrow and filtre down story and roleplay instead of giving the creative freedom to pursue a unique and individual story.

Knight Protector, not Knight Protector of Silverymoon.
Shadow Thief, not Shadow Thief of Amn.
Defender, not Dwarven Defender.

The list goes on. This is especially important in a PW setting where we cannot reasonably count on every of the gazillion super-specialised PrCs to be implemented. Thus, we ought to cover the broadest base possible with the PrCs we do have in mechanically.

PrCs already narrow down characters to "builds" in order to fulfill the mechanical requirements, which makes obtainees less diverse than I'd find desirable. Now to narrow the story down too, by having every Shadow Thief come from the same guild is just... ugh. It just seems unnecessarily limiting.

Cheers,

[Darkmystic]

The shadow thieves is a world spanning thief guild... They come from Amn orginally and its just the name of the class. Its a weird nitpick to bash it. Dwarven defender IS DWARVEN defender, else we gona see elven defenders running around and no one would allow a dwarven blade singer to run around.