I pretty sure I'll get flamed..

[MorbidKate]

Since loot drops were added to spawns I don't have an issue with what they drop... minus 0 value items or 20lb fish nets and door rams. I do wish the % chance of something dropping was increased a bit however otherwise the risk in no way makes it worth the attempt. A group almost getting killed for nowhere near enough to buy a single CLW kinda sucks. A small bump in chance of drop should fix that. What's available at merchants is also just fine however. And anything over +1 should be bought via a DM.

As for the TSM mod, most of the builders have left, slowed down or are AFK. Even #Alfabuilders is empty these days. Players would accept less content if there where DMs on regularly but they have dropped off to almost nothing as well so it's a perfect storm. Wanna play NWN2 with a Live character? Leave ALFA for another PW and wait to see if the DM traffic returns... or more content likely in the form of a new server.

Unless there's a drive from the top down to address the well documented reasons why people don't want to DM here we'll see the exact same thing happen with BG when it goes Live. A wave of player interest to check the server out and then a huge drop in player activity if the DM crew can't stay active. And with most ALFA servers always running on a skeleton staff we'll only be a couple DM burnouts away from what's happening on TSM now.

Enough input has been asked for on a number of topics so now is the time to do actually something about it and it starts with reducing the red tape load on DMs (Simple xp rewards, no wealth cap, max buffs on items based on level, etc...) and doing something about the forums and irc to make them more civil and welcoming to new members.

Kate

[HATEFACE]

Enough input has been asked for on a number of topics so now is the time to do actually something about it and it starts with reducing the red tape load on DMs (Simple xp rewards, no wealth cap, max buffs on items based on level, etc...) and doing something about the forums and irc to make them more civil and welcoming to new members.

I'm already seeing action on some of those things Kate. Give it some time. I'd like to make a comment about #alfa. Just because its a is "uncensored" chat doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be vulgar. (Though the option is there.) Its up to people to choose how they use freedom of speech. Nothing needs to be done if people are capable of doing it themselves.

Personally, Ive never been a big fan of us just having beta servers open and allowing folks to just roam around and squash bugs. I prefer a more focused testing. If I were HDM of a server and my server was going through the beta stages I would build accordingly:

1 Build so many areas firstly
2 Have a focus group/beta group test those areas on given nights with myself and my DM team present.
3 fix the bugs we find then repeat for new areas.

It doesnt hurt anything doing things the way they are done now, but im kinda a hands on person. I like to do things in a controlled way first and take that data and apply what I learn.

During the controlled group the DM can be there alongside the players and worry less about RP and more about giving Players levels, keys, items, etc that make certain quests work and can test every aspect of those quests and areas.

Anyway, thats how Id do it if I were an HDM and will do so if I ever become one.

I've never been a fan of running around trying to test stuff either. It should be orderly. Danubus for HDM? Fionn did that sorta stuff. He'd take players aside and would give them stuff to test out from time to time. I dunno if any of you saw the finished beautified TPI but it was awesome.

[MorbidKate]

I'd like to make a comment about #alfa. Just because its a is "uncensored" chat doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be vulgar. (Though the option is there.) Its up to people to choose how they use freedom of speech. Nothing needs to be done if people are capable of doing it themselves.

Self-editing has been an epic fail in IRC and freedom of speech arguments that get made to defend being vulgar, racist, etc... don't wash. ALFAs IRC channels are a marketing arm of this project and should be treated as such so long as it promotes the channels on it's web site. The Off-Topic thread is also filled with vulgar crud that does little to create a sense of community here. It is possible to disagree on almost anything without the profanity.

Fionn did that sorta stuff. He'd take players aside and would give them stuff to test out from time to time. I dunno if any of you saw the finished beautified TPI but it was awesome.

Thanks for the compliment

I totally rebuilt about 90% of TPI and had a great working relationship with Fionn who thanks to his scripting skills enabled TPI to offer timer-based boat travel and large areas to explore underwater via dive tanks and helm's of water breathing that even produced bubbles. We even had drowning scripts

It's a shame our arrangement to get hosting after Fionn left got pulled at the last minute. Months of building in anticipation of a re-launch was sadly wasted.

Kate

[HATEFACE]

Fionn did that sorta stuff. He'd take players aside and would give them stuff to test out from time to time. I dunno if any of you saw the finished beautified TPI but it was awesome.

Thanks for the compliment

I totally rebuilt about 90% of TPI and had a great working relationship with Fionn who thanks to his scripting skills enabled TPI to offer timer-based boat travel and large areas to explore underwater via dive tanks and helm's of water breathing that even produced bubbles. We even had drowning scripts

It's a shame our arrangement to get hosting after Fionn left got pulled at the last minute. Months of building in anticipation of a re-launch was sadly wasted.

Kate

You're welcome Kate.

Self-editing has been an epic fail in IRC and freedom of speech arguments that get made to defend being vulgar, racist, etc... don't wash. ALFAs IRC channels are a marketing arm of this project and should be treated as such so long as it promotes the channels on it's web site. The Off-Topic thread is also filled with vulgar crud that does little to create a sense of community here. It is possible to disagree on almost anything without the profanity.

You're right. Racism is wrong, profanity is uncooth, & civility is prefered. . .
That's why I'll ask people for restraint. That's all you can do without heavy censorship & silencing freedom of speech. One chatroom is moderated. It's called #alandfaraway and its very popular among those who like moderation. You should stop on by one day. People still get booted for saying inappropriate things in IRC so to say its completely unmoderated is a lie but at least people can say what they want. #alfa chat isn't a marketing arm, sorry. Usually it's a place where people can go for idle discussion, post news, BS about music, etc. It's social. . . #alandfaraway is our marketing arm. That's what should be advertised. That's what should be moderated. I would also like to see more use out of it. Like some sort of chat ALFA news ticker or something else used for the benefit of ALFA. I would also argue that chat is less important than the forums since the forums is often the first place a newbie will turn to for the OAS2 threads an' such. Your arguement about it being possible to disagree on almost anything without the use of profanity to support censorship is falliable unless you're saying its entirely impossible to refrain on profanity without using censorship.

I'm really sorry that freedom of speech is popular and censorship is not. If someone is offended we still have PAs & ARs & any other ALFA related acronym you wish to throw out there to keep people from going over board.

. . .and Kate, I'm not going to defend vulgarity or for that matter, racism. Please don't hold it against me if I use vulgarity from time to time. Just remember it makes me look bad when I SHIT all over people.

. . .One more thing eh? Its a private domain. They can do what they want. Even censor the word shit.

Just my two cents on the subject.

[MorbidKate]

#alfa chat isn't a marketing arm, sorry. Usually it's a place where people can go for idle discussion, post news, BS about music, etc. It's social. . . #alandfaraway is our marketing arm. That's what should be

advertised.

You are mistaken Helios. Both channels are listed on our website and one is just listed as a Helpdesk channel. Both have an impact on our community and therefore must be looked after with care. It was a tactical and strategic mistake to split the channels in the first place but that was just to please the vocal minority instead of dealing with the fundamental problem we face. Entitlement. The belief that just because someone has been here a while or helped out in the past... or even the present that there is a feeling of entitlement to say and act however they wish. It's disruptive and it turns people off. That needs to be toned down. What's telling is a look at the #Exodus channel that has so many current and past ALFAns and there's a VERY big difference how people act in general there. Same faces... different mentality. Curious, no?

Kate

[fluffmonster]

No matter how bad you think chat is, active efforts to moderate it have invariably turned out worse.

If you don't like the tone of chat, then speak up yourself and shout it down. Why try to get some third party to do the dirty work of your own indignation? That's all calls for moderation are...efforts to get somebody else to take the heat whenever somebody doesn't like the conversation.

[Lusipher]

You gotta admit, Fluff, if we get a new person to ALFA and they step foot in IRC and you have Mord and Burt in there cussing up a storm and blowing new people off that those new folks are going to turn around and mostly high tail it out of ALFA. I agree that some of us have thick skin and just let it brush off, but its still a central point for ALFA to show itself. If people come in there and see asshattery their probably gonna leave.

Most places that are the "faces" of a project wont let stuff like that go on for very long because your making the project look stupid.

[Thangorn]

*Flames Racerblue with Impunity*

[paazin]

You are mistaken Helios. Both channels are listed on our website and one is just listed as a Helpdesk channel. Both have an impact on our community and therefore must be looked after with care. It was a tactical and strategic mistake to split the channels in the first place but that was just to please the vocal minority instead of dealing with the fundamental problem we face. Entitlement. The belief that just because someone has been here a while or helped out in the past... or even the present that there is a feeling of entitlement to say and act however they wish. It's disruptive and it turns people off. That needs to be toned down. What's telling is a look at the #Exodus channel that has so many current and past ALFAns and there's a VERY big difference how people act in general there. Same faces... different mentality. Curious, no?

Kate

If someone is being a jerk, they'll be dealt with - it doesn't matter what channel they're on. Telling someone off when they're looking for honest help is just a bad move, any way you look at it, and we won't tolerate it.

That being said, I'm not sure if #exodus is that markedly better than #alfa. You might not have as many comments from the 'peanut gallery' but it has its own faults.

[White Warlock]

That being said, I'm not sure if #exodus is that markedly better than #alfa. You might not have as many comments from the 'peanut gallery' but it has its own faults.

Disagree. Both the forums and chat for exodus are respectful and friendly. The tone is maintained due to consequence and a general maintenance of respectability.

In striking contrast, there is no consequence associated with misbehavior in the ALFA forums or chat. We can act with impunity. Look, i spent a long time being associated with ALFA, albeit less time being 'in' ALFA. It's a community with potential, and on occasion it has demonstrated that potential. But, it walks with a limp, and that limp is entitlement. All the contributions in the world does not give members the 'right' to treat other members as lessors, and that's essentially what disrespect is.

That's why I'll ask people for restraint. That's all you can do without heavy censorship & silencing freedom of speech.

Hi Helios, I would like to point out this comment you made:

Its a private domain.

This is at the crux of the issue. This community is a private community, not a public street corner. We are included via the process of applying for membership, making this a large club house, guests each and every one of us. Which is why 'freedom of speech' does not apply.

We're in the house of ALFA; it is ALFA's house, not ours. ALFA has a Code of Conduct, that Code clearly indicates the 'rules' of this club house and it's our responsibility, as members, to enforce those rules; for the betterment of the project, for the respectability of its members, and for the impression ALFA gives to new members and to visitors.

It's not about 'our' rights, it's about ALFA's rights, which so many of us are trampling upon each and every day, by either acting in contrast to the Code of Conduct or by failing to enforce such.

First Paragraph of ALFA's Code of Conduct:

• All ALFA members should behave in a manner that is respectful of every other member, whether player or DM, as acknowledgment of the effort that goes into building and maintaining this community. No member should abuse any other member, or the gameworld, or the community, for any reason.

http://www.alandfaraway.org/docs/General/CodeOfConduct

[paazin]

Disagree. Both the forums and chat for exodus are respectful and friendly. The tone is maintained due to consequence and a general maintenance of respectability.

In striking contrast, there is no consequence associated with misbehavior in the ALFA forums or chat. We can act with impunity. Look, i spent a long time being associated with ALFA, albeit less time being 'in' ALFA. It's a community with potential, and on occasion it has demonstrated that potential. But, it walks with a limp, and that limp is entitlement. All the contributions in the world does not give members the 'right' to treat other members as lessors, and that's essentially what disrespect is.

I was only referring to IRC which is an entirely different animal than the forums (IIRC, most of exodus' flames and drama happens not on the exodus forums and elsewhere). Anyway, as far as IRC goes I've not seen all that much difference between the two. To wit, there is some, yes, but I think whatever evidence people used to say one is more civil than the other is anecdotal. Keep it mind it's damn difficult to 'moderate' chat - it's a real-time environment, unlike forums. Fitting our forum rules there is like trying to squeeze a round peg into a square hole.

[White Warlock]

Hi Paaz,

I really don't want to detract from ALFA discussions, or continue comparisons with the exodus project. Suffice it to say i disagree with you on this one front. In fact, i have participated in plenty of PW projects (a few as old as ALFA) with far greater degrees of respectability and camaraderie. The problem is here, within this community, and it is not necessarily membership dependent.

Respectfully,
Roy

[HATEFACE]

#alfa chat isn't a marketing arm, sorry. Usually it's a place where people can go for idle discussion, post news, BS about music, etc. It's social. . . #alandfaraway is our marketing arm. That's what should be

advertised.

You are mistaken Helios. Both channels are listed on our website and one is just listed as a Helpdesk channel. Both have an impact on our community and therefore must be looked after with care. It was a tactical and strategic mistake to split the channels in the first place but that was just to please the vocal minority instead of dealing with the fundamental problem we face. Entitlement. The belief that just because someone has been here a while or helped out in the past... or even the present that there is a feeling of entitlement to say and act however they wish. It's disruptive and it turns people off. That needs to be toned down. What's telling is a look at the #Exodus channel that has so many current and past ALFAns and there's a VERY big difference how people act in general there. Same faces... different mentality. Curious, no?

Kate

LOL! No, Not at all curious and not a different mentality in the least. Some of the same people, some of the same mentality. The only difference is the amount of profanity. People in alfa don't let out a string of curses and neither do the people of exodus. One place is moderate and the other is not but I have seen #exodus "LULZ" from time to time. No one feels entitled to act that way that I know of. The people of ALFA have been kicked for benign reasons in the past much more than the people of exodus under their moderation. Maybe its the type of people who run the show Kate.

No matter how bad you think chat is, active efforts to moderate it have invariably turned out worse.

If you don't like the tone of chat, then speak up yourself and shout it down. Why try to get some third party to do the dirty work of your own indignation? That's all calls for moderation are...efforts to get somebody else to take the heat whenever somebody doesn't like the conversation.

That's right fluff, there have been problems in the past. Remember we do have moderators and PAs for a reason just in case things do get way out of hand but I've yet to see the chat room break down to rampant anarchism and sheer hate. ;p

You gotta admit, Fluff, if we get a new person to ALFA and they step foot in IRC and you have Mord and Burt in there cussing up a storm and blowing new people off that those new folks are going to turn around and mostly high tail it out of ALFA. I agree that some of us have thick skin and just let it brush off, but its still a central point for ALFA to show itself. If people come in there and see asshattery their probably gonna leave.

Most places that are the "faces" of a project wont let stuff like that go on for very long because your making the project look stupid.

#alfa has a warning that it isn't moderated, doesn't it? Burt and Mord can defend themselves but I think its a little unfair to say that they have a detrimental effect upon newbies without even proving it. When was the last time any of you saw a n00b on #alfa? Time and time again it ends up being the same old "faces." I trust that some of our new players can read and go straight for #alandfaraway.

All ALFA members should behave in a manner that is respectful of every other member, whether player or DM, as acknowledgment of the effort that goes into building and maintaining this community. No member should abuse any other member, or the gameworld, or the community, for any reason.

That's why we should force people to respect each other? People should keep in mind the code of conduct when speaking to people and I gotta admit #alfa isn't a clusterbang of bigotry and hate.

This is at the crux of the issue. This community is a private community, not a public street corner. We are included via the process of applying for membership, making this a large club house, guests each and every one of us. Which is why 'freedom of speech' does not apply.

That is why I don't have a say in how things should be decided. That is why YOU don't have a say in how things should be decided nor kate for that matter. I'm only defending a process that is already in place and seems dawggone successful. You're entire statement is self-defeating because you're attempting to dictate to a private domain that has changed its mind.

People now conduct themselves rather openly and so far there has been no manipulation of the rules for anyone's own purpose that I know of. Who is at fault? The person who goads or the person who reacts and goes off the handle in an attempt to get back at the other? If the answer is either of the two then you would be at fault , I am at fault, kate is at fault, heck, even fluff would be at fault.

Just maybe the answer is to live with each other, try to answer some of those faults, peer into the reason behind them, and maybe even grow a little as a person. Forcing someone to be "PC" doesn't make them "PC." All it does is make them STFU but if people can conduct themselves with respect with out the need for moderation, well, that says something about that person, I think.

Keep in mind that all that I have stated applies to forum chat. I believe that the forums should be moderated because of some of the hurtful and down right stupid comments some people make against other members such as MShady and even you White Warlock. Comments made EVEN in the the ALFA / NWN / D&D Discussion sections. The comments are sometimes highly inappropriate but FI is doing a good job and she's got tough work ahead of her I imagine.

Anyway, this thread is getting kind of derailed but. . . whatever.

[Lusipher]

That's right fluff, there have been problems in the past. Remember we do have moderators and PAs for a reason just in case things do get way out of hand but I've yet to see the chat room break down to rampant anarchism and sheer hate. ;p

I have. I sat there for over an hour while we had moderators be AFK and took abuse from one individual for not sharing his beliefs. I was called everything in the book plus had physical threats thrown at me. So, you tell me moderation isnt needed? Actually, we had a moderator alive in the channel that day and he sat there pretty much and did nothing. He tried to calm him down at the end but thats after the majority of hate and threats were spewed forth. I talked with an Admin about it and was told to file a complaint. I did and that person dealt with the concequences of his actions.

All ALFA members should behave in a manner that is respectful of every other member, whether player or DM, as acknowledgment of the effort that goes into building and maintaining this community. No member should abuse any other member, or the gameworld, or the community, for any reason.

That's why we should force people to respect each other? People should keep in mind the code of conduct when speaking to people and I gotta admit #alfa isn't a clusterbang of bigotry and hate.

Its not a clusterbang of it, no. Things from time to time get out of hand and its usually from the same 3 people almost everyday. I guess maybe someone someday will finally make a dent in their heads that their behavior isnt acceptable. If not maybe they will get more than a warning for it the next time or a infra strike that really doesnt mean much to folks who sit in chat all day and dont play, build, or anything else.

Just maybe the answer is to live with each other, try to answer some of those faults, peer into the reason behind them, and maybe even grow a little as a person. Forcing someone to be "PC" doesn't make them "PC." All it does is make them STFU but if people can conduct themselves with respect with out the need for moderation, well, that says something about that person, I think.

Thats all well and good but if the kids cant play nice they need the teacher to sit them in the corner for a time out. Thats something thats not being done. From talking with Paazin Im guessing those days are almost over, though. So, I would suggest that folks learn to grow up some. I know I have.

[HATEFACE]

I have. I sat there for over an hour while we had moderators be AFK and took abuse from one individual for not sharing his beliefs. I was called everything in the book plus had physical threats thrown at me. So, you tell me moderation isnt needed? Actually, we had a moderator alive in the channel that day and he sat there pretty much and did nothing. He tried to calm him down at the end but thats after the majority of hate and threats were spewed forth. I talked with an Admin about it and was told to file a complaint. I did and that person dealt with the concequences of his actions.

I think I know who you're talking about here Danubus and I think you did the right thing. No I don't feel moderation is needed and it seems like everything was solved, wasn't it? Perhaps you're saying it didn't need to progress that far and I agree.

Its not a clusterbang of it, no. Things from time to time get out of hand and its usually from the same 3 people almost everyday. I guess maybe someone someday will finally make a dent in their heads that their behavior isnt acceptable. If not maybe they will get more than a warning for it the next time or a infra strike that really doesnt mean much to folks who sit in chat all day and dont play, build, or anything else.

Maybe I'll login when I'm finished up here and give those kids a good talking to even though I'm not a moderator. It couldn't hurt any.

Thats all well and good but if the kids cant play nice they need the teacher to sit them in the corner for a time out. Thats something thats not being done. From talking with Paazin Im guessing those days are almost over, though. So, I would suggest that folks learn to grow up some. I know I have.

I suggest that folks learn to grow up some too. I've seen a few people spanked on the bum for being bad even in the unmoderated chat. I've been talked to by paazin and I've known what I've done wrong. Moderated chat didn't work. Unmoderated chat don't work according to you, kate, & ww. So what do we do Danubus?