The NWN1 platform - changing customs and rules

[Brokenbone]

Re: PL's and Zelknolf's points just above, I agree, as per my earlier post.

It may be that you as a DM think this is a great series of ideas, but when you talk to your players, you find one bellyaches about "free levels" or another about letting a local DM join your party as a PC being more of a rival than they'd necessarily want (especially relevant for sneaky / shady adventuring where there's CvC chances, and your opponent knows every number on your character sheet). Alienating your regulars may be too high a price for "maybe" getting some new blood on a server.

I'm used to that with past patron DMs. There's RL or IC attrition, and DMs may do a little matchmaking, but usually only after a little discussion to see if you'd be okay if someone-or-other joined up. If it was now "someone-or-other, who will start at 6th, with average wealth for level, he's thinking a gnome sorcerer at this point", well, those involved in a campaign could give it some thought.

[Zelknolf]

Silvy for NWN2 has struggled from day 1 to get enough DMs. Even now, there are only one or two active DMs on the server, primarily because if you want to play NWN2 in ALFA, you only have 1 choice.

And yet the title of this thread is "The NWN1 platform - changing the customs and rules" -- you're in the wrong thread to complain about DM coverage on TSM2.

[zicada]

Silvy for NWN2 has struggled from day 1 to get enough DMs. Even now, there are only one or two active DMs on the server, primarily because if you want to play NWN2 in ALFA, you only have 1 choice.

And yet the title of this thread is "The NWN1 platform - changing the customs and rules" -- you're in the wrong thread to complain about DM coverage on TSM2.

I suggest you calm down a bit. It's obvious that you feel fairly emotional about these issues, but there's no need to act like this. Also, try to read posts in their entirety before replying, and consider what they're actually saying. There is no need to act this defensive. All members are entitled to post in this thread. You are not in a position to chose who gets to do that. Your reply to my own post makes it clear that you need to chill a bit. Nobody is out to 'get' NWN1. We're all trying to do what's best for the majority. OK ?

[Brokenbone]

I think Swift was just drawing a parallel as to why "DM where play" would be okay, illustration being in NWN2.

Still, the thread is about NWN1, and since ideas that end up working in the established side of the house (NWN1 not being a "side attraction", it's by any benchmark much more "healthy" than ALFA's NWN2) may work in NWN2, they can be thought about, in various other threads, one of the dozen NWN2 forums, etc.

[Ksiel]

Since we are talking about changes let me bring up this idea for debate.

1 - What if we made the ALFA1 servers public servers instead of private.

The argument here is that there will be hoards of PGers, griefers, etc... that join the server to run a muck. This is a simple idea on how to keep that from happening.

2 - Institute DM approval for lvl 3 advancement. This would need a DM or trust worthy players to sponsor/vouch for the player.

If we stay at lvl 1 starting lvl, then you need DM approval to get past lvl 3. This is the process currently for lvling past lvl 4 I believe, so I know it is doable. This would limit the amount of PGer, griefers, etc... I believe. Why would they come to a server that they can not bring in their local level 20 barbarian and slaughter people. If they actually have to rp and be approved just to get past lvl 3 and download our HAKs, I think they will go some where else.

I am just trying to figure a way to get away from some of the restrictions we have on getting into ALFA and police the bad behavior in another method. I think once we get people in and they see our servers then that will be a huge help, because the people that we do have are great.

Feel free to flame away.

[zicada]

Since we are talking about changes let me bring up this idea for debate.

1 - What if we made the ALFA1 servers public servers instead of private.

The argument here is that there will be hoards of PGers, griefers, etc... that join the server to run a muck. This is a simple idea on how to keep that from happening.

2 - Institute DM approval for lvl 3 advancement. This would need a DM or trust worthy players to sponsor/vouch for the player.

If we stay at lvl 1 starting lvl, then you need DM approval to get past lvl 3. This is the process currently for lvling past lvl 4 I believe, so I know it is doable. This would limit the amount of PGer, griefers, etc... I believe. Why would they come to a server that they can not bring in their local level 20 barbarian and slaughter people. If they actually have to rp and be approved just to get past lvl 3 and download our HAKs, I think they will go some where else.

I am just trying to figure a way to get away from some of the restrictions we have on getting into ALFA and police the bad behavior in another method. I think once we get people in and they see our servers then that will be a huge help, because the people that we do have are great.

Feel free to flame away.

I don't think that will accomplish too much, as they would have to grab worldgate and get all the HAK's etc anyway. People who are willing to do that, are generally willing to spend a few minutes filling out an app aswell I believe.

[Brokenbone]

Many, many NWN users, whether "good or bad roleplayers", do not bat an eye at big fat downloads. CEP's big. CTP tilesets are big. Lots of other popular haks out there are big.

I am not sure if technical ability or overall willingness to "do a download" is necessarily the right threshold for membership. I am also not sure that the time is right either. Welcome to our "campaign only" servers, pity you didn't log in during one of the two evenings one of the two campaigns is taking place! I.e., it might be like inviting people to the un- or under-staffed OAS1. Surprise! Nobody home, and no statics either.

If actually doing a new member drive, possibly with limited or no requirements to join, it might need a more involved program to welcome/integrate new people, like a recommended starting server thick with DMs / other PCs, which might take time to achieve, if it's ever possible. The integration (ie people around to mentor on basics like "don't run", or "((OOC requests look like this))" level of advice) is probably best achieved by peers, as opposed to a rulebook of do's and don'ts.

[Ksiel]

Ok, I will give in to the fact that big downloads would not be a problem for most that would try to cause trouble.

However, I would still like to hear about any arguments against the lvl 3 validation. Would these PGers, griefers, etc... be willing to put in hours of RP to be able to get a pc higher than lvl 3? I don't see them doing much harm at levels 1 - 3 before being caught and banned.

[Nalo Jade]

It's with that mindset that I approach the issue that has been brought forward. There are three standing customs that are intregal to the ALFA identity:

• DMs cannot play where they DM.
• PCs must start at level 1.
• Players are only allowed one PC at a time.

Allow DMs to play where the DM if the HDM approves. Harshly punish those DMs/HDMs who violate our trust.

PCs must start at level 1.
Players are only allowed one PC at a time.

(To deal with both of these create two classifications of Characters, Campaign and PW characters, Campaign characters may start at whatever level the DM deems appropriate, a Campaign cannot be about a solo PC, a Player may only have 1 PW character that they may play whenever they want, but may have as many Campaign PCs as they have campaigns to play in)

Allow PW PCs to optionally start at levels 1-3 with some kind of incentive for starting at level 1...maybe increase rewards for static quests but limit them to level 1 and 2 PCs, Maybe level 1 PCs are the only ones that can talk to the start merchants, Maybe offer a +1 to a single stat for level 1 PCs, and a +1 to a single save for level 2 PCs, Grant immunity to CvC for levels 1-2, Increase Auto RP exp factor for lower starting level PCs, ect...

again ... punish harshly any DM or Player who abuses this trust.

[Nalo Jade]

@Ksiel

I think we could give it a try ... but I agree with BB, the first time we "open" the doors we should do it as a PR event and make sure we have the maximum number of Players and DMs on as possible. Start with a single server use NWConnections to advertise the "event".

Then we will have more real information vs speculation.

We could even institute a system of CvC immunity for levels 3 and lower...an alternate corpse looting for low levels as well to prevent the getting rich of dead beginning players...

Its possible Ksiel, but baby steps first...Sorry but I think we are getting off track from FI's proposal and I think that is the major focus right now, your idea is not without merit...but it doesn't address the key points of the proposal at hand...

DMs playing on the servers they DM on.
Players not being restricted to starting at level 1.
Players not being restricted to a single PC.

[oldgrayrogue]

- DM where you play:

Yes, absolutely, we should trust those we deem worthy to DM to be able to separate the two. If other players are concerned about this I would suggest a separate "DM Account" and "DM nickname" for those who do both, so no one but Admin knows who the player/DMs are. This was done on another server I played on with good results. With this change I would also institute another change that addresses concerns about metagaming. If a player/DM is found to be metagaming, favoring player friends or other rule breaking etc etc by virtue of their position as a player/DM they get a life time ban -- period end of story. This should be deterrent enough for any who would do this, and satisfy those afraid of abuses, but I doubt it is a real issue.

- Multiple PCs:

Another emphatic yes. I am all for as many options for play and creativity as possible. I realize this is a pillar and all, but it is stifling of greater options for creative roleplay that will make the servers more fun for everyone, which is the point isn't it? I mean we are all here to have fun playing a game aren't we? The concern is with metagaming and powergaming I know. Frankly, I have never really been that concerned with what level another player's toon is, how much gold they have or what neat gear they have managed to accumulate. These are RP servers, not action or dedicated CvC combat servers. We have wealth and other standards, that should be sufficient to keep the PGers in check and in my experience metagamers are eventually discovered and punished or ostracized by others interested in honest RP with other players rather than against other players.

- Lvl 1 start:

As long as it is approved by the HDM and makes sense RPwise I say why not?

At the risk of pissing Zelk off for going off topic, I frankly don't see why these changes should be limited to NWN1. I proposed much the same for NWN2 and dropped it after I heard the outcry but still don't see the point. To answer the question posed by another poster:

1) Yes I would DM where I play (if approved)

2) Yes I most certainly would roll up and play multiple PCs

3) Sure I would start a PC at a higher level than 1, and wouldn't care at all if someone else did, if the HDM approved it and it made sense for the RP.

In closing I have a suggestion. Why not try this out on NWN1. Playing both platforms I can tell you those servers are mostly empty (at least during my playtimes and when no campaign session is being run). If the sky doesn't fall and the host machines don't blow up and the NWN1 servers are not suddenly running rampant with metagamers and powergamers, then maybe these changes can be extended to NWN2 as well, which frankly would be most welcome from my perspective.

[psycho_leo]

If we stay at lvl 1 starting lvl, then you need DM approval to get past lvl 3. This is the process currently for lvling past lvl 4 I believe, so I know it is doable.

Unless we changed it for some obscure reason, validation is required to get lvl 4.

I don't see them doing much harm at levels 1 - 3 before being caught and banned.

That depends on what you call harm I suppose. If you only mean killing PCs, then you're likely safe. But then again you're likely safe even on that front if you don't enforce validation. We don't have enough static content to reach lvl ubber and most NWN1 players that are still around are commited to campaigns and don't play outside their scheduled times. DMs would notice a horde of hyperactive teenagers zerg rushing their players mid session I imagine. The harm they could do to immersion doesn't depend much on their PC lvls.

BB points out the problem we always run into when thinking of ways of attracting new blood "en masse" to the NWN1 servers. They are ghost towns whenever a DM is not on running his campaign and then he's busy with ... you know... his campaign.

[Ksiel]

I thought if fit pretty squarely under the title "The NWN1 platform - changing customs and rules" . Everything I mentioned would be chaning customs and rules.

If need be I can delete my entries and create a different thread or if moderators feel it would be best served elsewhere. I just thought the idea was worth mentioning before we got so narrow in our view of what could be changed about ALFA1. There is a lot out there that could be done.

I would just like to see a full and healthy ALFA1 again. I am willing to go with what ever is decided, just know that I have ALFA's best intrest at heart.

[Nalo Jade]

Sorry Ksiel,

Your'e right...I'm the one with the tunnel vision right now. Your suggestions are of course welcome and relevant, I didn't mean for it to come off like that.

[Brokenbone]

I'd say a legitimate fourth topic, which Ksiel has introduced, is about relaxing membership requirements and at least one suggested safeguard to go along with it. There are other safeguards others might propose. Or other ideas which might help make ALFA's NWN1 seem more welcoming (i.e., some level of matchmaking / scheduling / non-ghost-town way of coming in).

My own concerns are less about CvC/grief, and more about quality. I have checked out other PW projects, and there's a wide range of good and (IMO) bad players out there. I've seen a bard PC in some Dales town or other slowly rattle off the lyrics to Evanescence's "Broken." I've been in the middle of talking with a PC, call him "Drewel" for the sake of argument, who wants to go out in the woods to hunt goblins, I reluctantly agree, and it's "BRB I'm logging in w/ alt Druid" and "Drewel" vanishes in front of me, but another "Drewel" in slightly different clothes, and apparently Druid levels, appears elsewhere in town and then runs into whatever building I was at. I've seen DMs run out, set up a goblin camp, then log back in with their PC to lead a band of other PCs to knock over the gobbos that he just set up, like bowling pins, getting his PC some loots and xp in the process. There are a lot of projects out there, and quality really, really varies.

It may be that a wide open door, without some form of interaction/mentoring right behind it, would be ugly.

...

Anyhow, as to the four different broad sets of ideas, no one says all have to happen at once either. Or on all servers at once, for that matter. HDMs may end up open to volunteer testing out any program.