Possiblities for villians?

[Rotku]

admin telling the DMs and HDMs they need to get serious about making sure that evil groups and characters dont get ahead or even settled in.

I don't think I've ever heard of or seen any Admin ever saying anything like that. Nor as a DM have I ever heard anyone tell me anything stupid like that (evil not getting ahead, that is). Not sure where you get this information from, but I can tell you it is certainly not the stance of the Admin body as a whole. The next PC I have lined up, when my current one bites it (or I retire him) is evil. I've always loved playing shades of evil, it's a great part of ALFA and RP in general.

The place where evil does lose out is that it is harder to DM than good. I don't like DMing evil (although love playing evil), because I've found over the years I can never quite pull it off right. Maybe I'm just a crap DM, but beggars can't be choosers. Until someone is found who is willing to help more with evil, you chose to play a difficult PC so you've got to live with what you get. Just to further cement this point, after BRM stepped down, the two offers I heard of from current BG players willing to step forward to DM were both from the 'good' team. And given that they make up maybe 1/3 of the server, last I played, I think maybe we've found a potential solution to your problem.

[danielmn]

admin telling the DMs and HDMs they need to get serious about making sure that evil groups and characters dont get ahead or even settled in.

I don't think I've ever heard of or seen any Admin ever saying anything like that. Nor as a DM have I ever heard anyone tell me anything stupid like that (evil not getting ahead, that is). Not sure where you get this information from, but I can tell you it is certainly not the stance of the Admin body as a whole. The next PC I have lined up, when my current one bites it (or I retire him) is evil. I've always loved playing shades of evil, it's a great part of ALFA and RP in general.

The place where evil does lose out is that it is harder to DM than good. I don't like DMing evil (although love playing evil), because I've found over the years I can never quite pull it off right. Maybe I'm just a crap DM, but beggars can't be choosers. Until someone is found who is willing to help more with evil, you chose to play a difficult PC so you've got to live with what you get. Just to further cement this point, after BRM stepped down, the two offers I heard of from current BG players willing to step forward to DM were both from the 'good' team. And given that they make up maybe 1/3 of the server, last I played, I think maybe we've found a potential solution to your problem.

I missed that directive also, as both DM and HDM. I wonder what "getting ahead" means...I didn't know anyone was racing anyone else, be it levelwise or wealthwise. Perhaps influence wise in the game itself...but I certainly haven't heard anyone say to me that good matters more than evil, ot that good takes precedence, or that good should have more political influence on a server, ect. As for settling in, I think the Banites prove you wrong on that one. I think if you have clear goals to be accomplished and maintain in contact with dms...even maybe go so far as to let the dm's of your server have access to your player group forum, that certain groups might well see more action than they do now. Seeing as there is a bit of evil on BG, and there has been little dmage due to the changeover in structure, I can see how one would be a bit miffed....I am working as fast as I can to get the server up to par so I can dm you guys, throw you evil plots, go through and approve your builds, push forward your own evil agenda's as well as 8-10 seperate PC adevancements for that group alone, squash bugs, and handle trouble on server. A small amount of patience is required.

[oldgrayrogue]

Playing evil can be a lot of fun, but also very challenging, especially an openly evil PC. It does indeed require a special type of player with the temperment to understand that when your PC is of a race/ region/ religion that other PCs and NPCs would consider evil it will and should result in unwanted negative attention, and at times the consequences of that attention. Evil actions (whether by PCs or NPCs) will and should draw the attention of would be heros to smite said evil, just as evil characters (whether PC or NPC) will hatch their own nefarious plots to outdo the do gooders. Serious RP is impossible without this dynamic in my opinion.

Does good usually win out over evil in most fantasy settings? In my experience it does, but that certainly need not be the case. Over the years I have seen many evil PCs, especially well played clandestine evil characters, acheive positions of vast power and influence in a game world. To my thinking though, the reason evil usually loses out to good in the end is because most evil based dogma is oppressive. Most even semi-intelligent beings will rise up against oppression eventually, and in extremely oppressive circumstances it becomes depose evil or die. Players of the dark side need to understand this I think, to be able to really enjoy the experience.

To me, playing evil, or good for that matter, is not about acheiving the end goal a given character may have -- building a castle, earning a crown, becoming a criminal mastermind etc. -- but experiencing the journey as you work towards that goal, regardless of the ultimate outcome. As someone who often plays evil, I have always accepted the simple fact that it will be more difficult for evil characters than good characters to attain their goals because people interested in their own survival will be out to thwart them. In my experience while that presents a challenge, with a huge chance of failure that one must learn to accept, the challenge also results in a richer more rewarding experience, "win or lose." In fact I'd dare say the deepest and most cathartic RP I have ever enjoyed has been living through the losing end of a story. But that's just me.

[johnlewismcleod]

What OGR said...+1.

[Brokenbone]

Good post OGR.

I was just going to say groups of villains can be fun, but their stories often end up calling for a self-destruct process kicking in at some point. Continuing to "have fun" usually means ignoring what should be a chance to advance your PC at the expense of others, but eventually to stick true to the RP, betrayal etc. is required. Possibly along the lines of that oppression stuff OGR mentioned, someone in any hierarchy will end up the top dog, it's the duty and pleasure of those beneath him or her to undermine, destroy, replace the top dog.

Anyhow, yeah. Groups of villains are fun, and can be fun for a good long while, but man oh man are you going to need a DM patron, especially one who can invent groups of neutral / good victims other than just fellow PCs for you. Someone who can help keep the story together, and if things are getting "infighty", to present some external challenges to either kill the group or make it stronger

[Malacand]

It's better to burn out, then fade away.

A little cliche, yea. Like anyone else though I think people can get to a point where they might have had their characters for a very long time and have made a name for that character, enjoyed tons of roleplay with said toon, but get to a point where their toon just fades away. I wouldn't mind losing a character to a dragon to allow my comrades to escape, or have an evil character who was hunted down and executed for being a tyrant. Those are exciting deaths and add to the character's legacy! Just like retiring a high level good character at the appropriate time can be just as fulfilling.

Now I don't have any of that experience on this specific server. But, on a NWN1 server back in '05 I purposfully choose an action which I knew would cause my toons death because it's what the character would have chosen, and not the player, he wasn't going to run away.

Whats my point in all this? Pork sandwiches. I mean that choosing an evil character can be just as fun as a good character, its just that the ways you are going to enjoy it are going to be different than how you enjoy playing a do-gooder toon. Can't expect to live a long glorious life of plotting and then expect to retire peacefully, but to live in the moments with your evil toon agains't the whole server, it's exciting, to me atleast. I might just have to play evil after my current toon bites the dust someday.

[Castano]

It all comes down to building the statics. Anyone out there want to build evil statics for Moonshaes? We're in beta, and an evil pirate static based out of the "Slippery Eel" Inn in Corwell would be quite welcome. Perhaps delivering obviously stolen goods to a neighboring seaport or pirate base and then from there on into all sorts of fell deeds.

PM me if anyone is game.

[Lokan]

Hi all,

I had a second to troll around the forums and this subject got my mind racing. I have many opinions about evil characters, and mostly I love it. I have played mostly good characters, but I know that the evil PCs that I have seen being played in ALFA are great. The players themselves do well at treading that fine line between being sensitive to the other players of the server and being evil. I myself have a "anything goes as long as we communicate well" type of player. I will try to make RP enjoyable for everyone so I will be flexible in how I react to other players. what I mean is if a person is evil and trying to get the better of me as a good player and we are both using good game mechanics to challenge each other, i wont be a sore loser if "good" doesn't triumph.
Also, I know it would take some growing pains, but I would actually like to see the gloves come off a bit between good and evil. I think conflict breeds drama (not the bad OOC kind, mind you). The epic story type of drama. If we could find a way to maturely plot against eachother, scheme behind each others backs, undermine the good intentions of the noble, and bring down the tyranny of the wicked, and some times (very infrequently) meet each other on the battle field at the climax of the story, then we will have some memorable moments. If done right even the loser can't complain, and I would rather die in a story like that then against some randomly spawned Gnoll.
I think if DMs act as referees and we play these types of interactions like we would on say...a game board with some rules to follow, then it would be fun.

[Vendrin]

Necromancy is bad m'kay?

[Mick]

Necromancy is bad m'kay?

Bah. Bah, I say!!

[mother]

Evil is good.

At least for roleplaying and for the depth of play in an online (or even PnP) game. In WoW, DAoC, etc- you are stuck with the only option of being heroic. Because you aren't really playing a character, you are jumping through hoops in order to "win".

Even in DDO (which I was disappointed by), the only alignment options are Good (LG, NG, CG) and the various flavors of neutral.

I, for one, don't want to play a hero. Heroes suck. I want to disturb and repulse. I want to create an atmosphere where people feel the need to shower and possibly pray after a session.

This, I think adds needed depth to a campaign. And in the end, depth is what drives people to NWN over the other MMO's.

Is the game created for evil characters? Probably not. But who cares what the game was made for? You take the rules and rape them, forcing them to bend to your will and adjust themselves to your somebodyness.

Without this, a world quickly descends into mediocrity and the staleness of story and vision that has kept DnD the exclusive domain of teenagers and men who live in their Mom's basement at 36. It takes balls to make a truly unforgettable character, or a world/server that people remember.

True story.

[Swift]

Cool story bro.

[johnlewismcleod]

I agree with the sentiment...I think

I played evil for some years prior to coming over to ALFA. I did it primarily to enrich the server for others...and to prove to myself that I "had the chops".

I welcome any to have a go at evil, but be warned...evil requires of the player maturity, equanimity, and above all: to never cheat.

I assume you meant IC dirty tricks and depravity when you wrote about "bending the rules", because if you meant actually cheating I would have to say: "Please don't play evil...or anything else, for that matter".

[mother]

By rules, I meant "the accepted way of doing things". More status quo than actual rules.