Ethics and Morality

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Lucifer
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Re: Ethics and Morality

Post by Lucifer »

Just my Two cents on the whole discussion..we usually play as mature people in Alfa..if Logs were to be used to threaten or herd peolple in a direction by those able to read them....I would leave..that is the best form of independance..don't allow others to control you :D

Two..as far as content goes..Kidnapping and torture..sexual content ect. At any time any Player who is uncomfortable with such content should be allowed to back out withg no penalty other than missing such content..No one should grief them or comment on their dislike of the situation..no one knows why the content bothers them and they should not need to explain. In such a case a DM should give them an out or Comic Book world should ensue to make things work. I am not saying all others should be deprived of their play just that no-one should be forced to participate or given grief over not participating.
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Re: Ethics and Morality

Post by AcadiusLost »

I seem to be late to the party, but hopefully I can help to take this down a notch at least:
Killthorne wrote:I believe that no Admin has a right to pull up server logs with private messages on it. I don't care if Admin believes players will "doctor" their own log reports to incriminate others. Require two logs from the plaintiff and defendant! Give people instructions on how to set up logging in-case they are truly concerned about being offended/mistreated/harassed by people.
ALFA does not now, nor to my knowledge has it in the past, kept logs of ingame chat and tells. When you hear talk of DMs "browsing the server logs", what they are talking about is the logs of ingame Events - monster kills, things picked up, quests done, things sold or dropped, logouts during combat, etc. These are stored centrally, and DMs for the server in question are given access to run specific queries.

Some of this confusion may have come out of an old NWNx4 chat function plugin that was used to hook the OnChat event for a while (xp_chat.dll). For a while, this was necessary to enable our RPXP system (so it would know if you'd been "active" by some means other than whether or not your location had changed). This plugin did create an automatic debug file output that caught ingame chat and tells, but it was not an appending file, so it wiped itself every server reset, and was never saved or stored. As I felt uncomfortable with this potential for access to "presumed private" tells, only a handful of people were even in the loop about the existence of these transient logs. As soon as NWN2 added the OnChat event in one of the later patches, I switched our RPXP system over to that and abandoned the xp_chat plugin. So, it's likely a year or more since there was even a transient logging of ingame chat and tells.

Admin is not reading your ingame chat, or your tells, nor is there any plan to do so at any point in the future.

Feel free to carry on with the other aspects of the thread, but the chat/tell-logging is a non-issue.
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Re: Ethics and Morality

Post by SwordSaintMusashi »

AcadiusLost wrote:I seem to be late to the party, but hopefully I can help to take this down a notch at least:
Killthorne wrote:I believe that no Admin has a right to pull up server logs with private messages on it. I don't care if Admin believes players will "doctor" their own log reports to incriminate others. Require two logs from the plaintiff and defendant! Give people instructions on how to set up logging in-case they are truly concerned about being offended/mistreated/harassed by people.
ALFA does not now, nor to my knowledge has it in the past, kept logs of ingame chat and tells. When you hear talk of DMs "browsing the server logs", what they are talking about is the logs of ingame Events - monster kills, things picked up, quests done, things sold or dropped, logouts during combat, etc. These are stored centrally, and DMs for the server in question are given access to run specific queries.

Some of this confusion may have come out of an old NWNx4 chat function plugin that was used to hook the OnChat event for a while (xp_chat.dll). For a while, this was necessary to enable our RPXP system (so it would know if you'd been "active" by some means other than whether or not your location had changed). This plugin did create an automatic debug file output that caught ingame chat and tells, but it was not an appending file, so it wiped itself every server reset, and was never saved or stored. As I felt uncomfortable with this potential for access to "presumed private" tells, only a handful of people were even in the loop about the existence of these transient logs. As soon as NWN2 added the OnChat event in one of the later patches, I switched our RPXP system over to that and abandoned the xp_chat plugin. So, it's likely a year or more since there was even a transient logging of ingame chat and tells.

Admin is not reading your ingame chat, or your tells, nor is there any plan to do so at any point in the future.

Feel free to carry on with the other aspects of the thread, but the chat/tell-logging is a non-issue.

Way to kill all the Big Brother conspiracy theories, AL.
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Re: Ethics and Morality

Post by danielmn »

And here I was feelin all jealous because I as HDM never had access to any chat logs of the players to read about all the cyborz that happened....
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Re: Ethics and Morality

Post by Kemeras »

Thanks AL,

Feel free to carry on with the other aspects of the thread, but the chat/tell-logging is a non-issue
I suspected as much, it didn't really fit with the ALFA character and that *sounds* like the source of the disconnect (re: telephone game ;) ).

Still a good discussion all round, the points Killy brought up do apply to society at large and is something we should all be aware of.

For some good reading on these types of issues check out Bruce Schneier http://www.schneier.com/ , his blog posts are excellent reading. He was one of the few voices of sanity over the TSA setup (no one listened to him unfortunately) and has always been a strong advocate of the 'human' factor to security (trained professionals beat out automated systems any day of the week. The key is 'properly trained', which I think anyone would agree the TSA is *not* :)

Also password safe is a bloody god send , he also contributed to the Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson (also hight recommend the Baroque Cycle by him, interesting perspective on the history of the world done in a fun adventure setting. The Shaftoe's are awesome characters).
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Killthorne
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Re: Ethics and Morality

Post by Killthorne »

Thanks Acadius. :D

I am glad you cleared that up.

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Re: Ethics and Morality

Post by Kemeras »

Killthorne wrote:Thanks Acadius. :D

I am glad you cleared that up.

~Killy~
Thank you Killy, it wouldn't have seen the light of day to get clarified if you hadn't have brought it up :D

Cheers!
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Re: Ethics and Morality

Post by Burt »

This thread makes me guffaw. Well done Kill.
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Basilica
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Re: Ethics and Morality

Post by Basilica »

Ah, a topic near and dear to my heart, this! (So to speak.)

I am happy to hear that the policy is not to create permanent logs of player interactions. If nothing else, centralized/global logs have a tendancy to become accidentally misplaced, especially if machines are decommissioned and not completely wiped after (though there are certainly other reasons as to why logs are disadvantageous). It is, in my opinion, simply a far safer default position to not create them unless there is a specific justified need to do so.

As to the prime topic of the thread...

While I am still very much a newcomer here (and still retaining simply lurker status thus far), and thus you may take my opinion with the degree of salt that you deem appropriate given such, I tend to come out in favor of axing the ever-nebulous PG-13.

The reason I dislike claims to PG-13-ness in RP scenarios involving a non-trivial group of individuals is that, at least in my experience, what is 'acceptable' has a tendancy to become increasingly arbitrary and capricious as the group expands; everyone tends to have their own view on what's really "PG-13". I think that this tends to have a somewhat chilling effect in terms of RP getting papered-over in some respects, in the attempt to satisfy a nebulous sense of what is actually acceptable. RP is by nature a very creative beast, and a spontaneous one without the benefit of an editor to hash over what's going on and provide a second opinion before you go to press and so forth. For me, this has often resulted in a tendancy to overly-temper my RP (not speaking of ALFA from personal experience, merely in general) to be on the 'safe' side. This, I personally find distasteful, as it seems to be an artifical constraint on what may otherwise be legitimate creativity (should the content be acceptable to parties involved).

I think that it could also be argued that, assuming everyone were to, expressly for the sake of argument, agree that PG-13 is the definition for age appropriate content for individuals (if you subscribe to such a belief), that the quality of RP from an individual that young is increasingly unlikely to be up to snuff as to ALFA standards simply from a lack of a breadth of life experience and not having fully developed to adulthood.

That being said, Killthorne captured the essence of my thoughts here:
Killthorne wrote:I think we all know players who enjoy adult-themed, consenting role-play. I am not so much defending their interests, as I am defending everyone's pursuits in enjoying ALFA as they see fit without fear of having some DM pulling up logs, or logging in to kick them out/ban them for content that the DM is disinterested in, or dislikes. If you don't like cyb0r, fine, you don't have to. If you don't like torture scenes, that's good, you are entitled. However, the door should swing both ways.
(Emphasis added by me.)

Particularly if I were to play an evil character, I would certainly not want to have to stop and wonder, "Am I being too evil? Will I get pulled over and get a ticket for it, or worse?", more often than not[1]. Should the community rules take a relaxed view of the subject, it simply remains up to one to, if they want to be certain, ask other parties involved OOCly first, and that is all there is to it -- rather than an uncertainty that the one's actions may be, while acceptable to parties involved, not so to the nature that the community aspires to. This seems (to me) to be much more conducive to a smooth flowing play experience than a continual, lingering seed of uncertainty.

(To be absolutely clear here, the intent of the above is not to make a judgement or statement on community handling of these situations if such situations are actually brought to the attention of a DM/admin, but rather to hightlight that the uncertainty itself is undesirable.)

--

P.S. Killthorne's remarks on depictions of violenence being considered more or less immortal than sexual related depictions also reverbate with my opinions; I find it difficult to believe that one could prove that the latter has a more negative psychological impact to voluntarily[2] read about in a fantasy setting than the former, especially in cases where one is apprised of the possibility of said content ahead of time. At the risk of getting onto a philosophical soap box, however, I'll just stop there as the thread should not be derailed.

--

[1] Speaking of my personal opinions here, certainly others are likely to have more specific beliefs and experiences involving ALFA specifically than a lurker as me. For what it is worth, simply from reading the Library forums, it seems that there are several who are quite successful at this.

[2] With a stated assumption that our hypothetical reader is sufficiently developed to comprehend the circumstances and consequences of what they are reading. This seems increasingly likely for an average ALFA-aged individual based on the poll that has been going on given standards in nearly any place you might find on Earth.
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Re: Ethics and Morality

Post by Castano »

TY Basilicia.

I have hated PG-13 since it was implemented. Why: because it's a lie. I hated the fact we tell people this place is PG-13 and they show up for plots with tons of mature content violence etc.

I don't want to police what people do if they consent to it and don't tell the other player to stop the RP - then they should be allowed to enjoy it. That being said, the primary activity of your PC shoudl not be cyb0r...why? because it's not DnD then...(but that is an argument that I would level if your PC's primary activity was drinking ales in a bar, or pretending to garden, or arrange flowers or sow quilts).

There is a difference IMO btwn RPing something out and playing a 3rd person shooter...there is less detachment in some 3rd person shooter game versus computer generated NPCs than there is versus a live player. People never get mad and OOC rage over 3rd person shooter games (well except that youtube vid of that kid who wrecked his room, but I digress), but they do over RP.

I'd also like to thank our thread participants for this informed discussion. I know it sounds ultra corny but I am happy this did not descend into a rage thread of hell..
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Re: Ethics and Morality

Post by Basilica »

And in fact, I would go so far as to say that it is exactly having the dash of mature content where it is appropriate that can provide the seasoning to make good RP exceptional RP.

I've read some pretty gruesome things in books, for instance (War of the Spider Queen, anyone?), and certainly some racy romance-y bits too. These (and other techniques) can certainly be used incorrectly, but done when right, they are a powerful creative and literary devices, capable of, in the rights hands, creating strong connection between the audience and the characters -- capable of evoking an emotional response from the audience, to move them in a memorable way.

To me, that is what exceptional RP/storytelling is about at the end of the day.

Clearly not all RP directly involves these particular topics (and bland RP focuses on one aspect entirely) -- but we increase our depth by not boxing ourselves in to a nebulous PG-13.

I'll cease the preaching for tonight, though. Apologies for the overly long wall of text prior :)
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Re: Ethics and Morality

Post by Vendrin »

Image

Alfa is pg-13? lol :roll:
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Re: Ethics and Morality

Post by danielmn »

OH NOES! PEEPING TOM CAT STRIKES AGAIN!!!!!
Swift wrote: Permadeath is only permadeath when the PCs wallet is empty.
Zyrus Meynolt: [Party] For the record, if this somehow blows up in our faces and I die, I want a raise

<Castano>: danielnm - can you blame them?
<danielmn>: Yes,
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"And in this twilight....our choices seal our fate"
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Re: Ethics and Morality

Post by Hialmar »

Okay we've got a Lolcat so I suppose the discussion is over ;)

Anyway I have put up a global poll about this.

Please vote and/or propose another solution there.
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Re: Ethics and Morality

Post by Mirabai »

lol what you people have to say in your tells does not in any way pique my curiosity enough to be bothered to push the buttons to read any of it.



well, unless it's burt.
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