Use Your Illusion

[JaydeMoon]

Question:

When an illusion is cast, who gets to roll a will save, and when?


One understanding is that everyone gets to attempt a save upon coming across the illusion.

If you disguise self and walk into a full tavern, everyone gets an attempt.

Of course, this means that 1 out of every twenty people is going to pierce your illusion. Pierced illusions show up as the illusion blurred over what it actually there, so you become VERY noticeable. Afterwards, they'd surely tell their friends, who now have a chance to actively disbelieve, etc... ends up that a mage with 50 gazillion int, Greater Spell Focus, illusion, casting permanent image will not fool an inn full of commoners.

A second understanding is that you don't get to roll unless you 'interact' with the illusion. Now this has several levels of meaning.

Interact can mean passively interacting or actively interacting. Passively means that the first case above is in effect. I see you, that's your illusion that I'm passively interacting with by seeing so I get to roll a saving throw.

Actively interacting with means you are actually touching, focusing on, smelling, etc.

Page 173 of the PHB (3.5) talks about Saving Throws and Illusions, which it labels as 'disbelieving'. It says that creatures encountering an illusion usually do not get a saving throw until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

While some might say that merely 'seeing', 'smelling', 'hearing' the illusion counts as interacting with it... the idea that you have encountered the illusion seems to say that you are seeing, hearing, smelling it. So now that you've encountered it, you don't usually get a save unless...

This feels like you don't save on a disguise illusion merely by laying eyes on it.

So, throwing it out there... when do you think folks make saves on illusions? Immediately upon encountering them, or only after something has given you a reason to believe it might be an illusion?

[Thangorn]

only after something has given you a reason to believe it might be an illusion?

'nuff said.. thats the way I've always played it in PnP.

On one hand this gives illusionists alot of power. I tend to temper this a little by making illusionists make a disguise or other sort of appropriate subterfuge(eg. bluff) roll to see how well their illusion holds up under regular scrutiny. Just the one roll at the time the spell is cast and specialist illusionists and (eww) gnomes get bonuses to said check..

I then apply modifiers to any saves based on this and if the skill check is particularly bad, NPCs might actually give the illusion more than passing scrutiny which may lead to a save (eg. "There is something really "wrong" looking about the way that elf moves and his face looks really "blocky")..

Thats how I handle it in my pnp campaigns at any rate..

[Misty]

I second Thangs on this.

Most people do not scrutinise every person they see, but passively accept that the person before them looks how they look. Not until they study the person in question for whatever reason would I start calling for saving throws.

[dergon darkhelm]

Agree with Thangorn above.....

also, as a DM I do not give NPCs the benefit of the "a 20 always wins" as my own personal house rule..... I know that's out of the rules, but I view those rules as being meant to be in the PCs benefit ............a guaranteed 5% success rate for *every* save and attack just has never made sense to me ...just my own take

Only if it were a critical NPCs (town guard assessing the entering illusionist, NPC being actively bluffed etc) would I even bother with saves

[Vaelahr]

Disguise Self
You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your body type. Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person.

So humans can't disguise themselves as halflings, elves as gnomes, etc.

The spell does not provide the abilities or mannerisms of the chosen form, nor does it alter the perceived tactile (touch) or audible (sound) properties of you or your equipment.

Sheds some light here on the interaction question. I'd say the illusion is blown if a guard does a pat-down or if there's any sort of intimate contact. Female illusionists attempting a male voice in a racially different accent to a language they don't know are sure to blow it (Bluff roll?). An illusionist wearing leather armor but appearing as a mail-clad warrior, may raise eyebrows with the absence of metallic sounds when walking.

I'd say any guard gets a save. Especially stationary guards. Even if they're generally inattentive, they'll scrutinize someone's approach because it's something to do at the time. Just my opinion.

Bottom line: DMs make the best decisions they can with the rules-knowledge they have at the time. DMs make the calls and shouldn't have to deal with any brow-beating attempts by rules-lawyering players.

[Brokenbone]

"Interaction" is an extremely vague word used in most illusion spell descriptions. So vague and debated along with all the other elements of Illusions, that it spawned a whole bunch of "clarification" articles thru WOTC.

All about Illusions:
Part 1: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060207a (introductory stuff and the types of illusions)
Part 2: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060214a (mostly about areas of effect, bit about disbelief and saves)
Part 3: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060221a (Includes Interaction rules, note in cases even SPEAKING to an illusion isn't necessarily Interaction)
Part 4: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060228a (bunch about Figments)

Anyhow, if Illusions were adjudicated as "always a save for even the most casual look / listen", I don't think that's giving proper credit to what's supposed to be some pretty subtle magic, and an alternative to the much less debateable fireball chucking style that not everyone is necessarily into. Unfortunately in NWN terms, lots of PCs are the most keenly observant creatures ever to grace Faerun... even when an ambient NPC briefly comes to live to do a *sniffles*, it can summon adventurers from the four corners of a city to determine "what does that sniffle mean? We better watch that sniffler closely, and gods help them if they have an illusion on!"

I'd love to think of Illusions as like those stupid 3D "Magic Eye" pictures... there's a damn Schooner (or possibly a Sailboat) in there somewhere, but I just can't see it! Still, that might actually be a little harder than the suggested rules from those WOTC articles.

...

Anyhow to go back to square one, Jaydemoon asks essentially "when" to make a save for illusions, I'd suggest eyeballing Part 3 of that series of articles for scenarios when one would, or wouldn't, get a save.

[Zelknolf]

Illusion is an imperfect art. It's supposed to be an imperfect art, and for most disguise making illusions, there's a transmutation spell that's a wee bit higher level that can do the same thing, but without that pesky disbelief thing - this is where the clever mage who expects people to believe the spell consistently is supposed to go.

Illusions are best used to fool a person. A few if you're an illusionists. Expecting to be able to slap a purely visual glamer on oneself and wander about town striking up conversations while sounding, smelling, and feeling like yourself is asking for trouble. I would say that an instance of one's voice "not sounding like the face" (Something that's vastly more disconcerting than most of us give a voice's credit for) would fall somewhere between "A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw." and "If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus."

Similarly, the notion that no one is going to eye up the new guy wandering around, and none of them are going to get lucky -- noting, of course, that the most accomplished illusionist is still going to give a 10% chance of making a save to people with no will save bonus on a Disguise Self, and that most casters are right around a 1 in 4 on that -- is a bit silly.

In PnP modules, illusion is never something foolproof; illusion buys time, creates confusion, and improves the odds of mundane things. The illusory floor makes it take that much longer to spot the pit trap underneath (which may well be the time it takes to walk into it), and the illusory wall gives the ambushers behind it an extra couple rounds to really set up their ambush. A disguise self or a seeming makes a guard spend a moment asking "What the hell?" before the phantasmal killer hits, and might even leave another guard scratching his head and wondering what just happened. A major image shakes an opponent's morale until they realise that tight-knit pack of minotaurs isn't actually there.

The problem with illusions is when people expect them to fool everyone for the duration of the spell. It doesn't happen; it's not supposed to happen; and someone deciding to disguise self and go out and hit the tavern scene in our medieval proxy of clubbing aught to be in for a sore surprise. Some people would get paranoid and shout something (giving everyone a save at +4). Some people would just tell friends (giving them a save at +4). Some people would get the guards (and start a world of trouble).

[JaydeMoon]

The problem with illusions is when people expect them to fool everyone for the duration of the spell. It doesn't happen; it's not supposed to happen; and someone deciding to disguise self and go out and hit the tavern scene in our medieval proxy of clubbing aught to be in for a sore surprise. Some people would get paranoid and shout something (giving everyone a save at +4). Some people would just tell friends (giving them a save at +4). Some people would get the guards (and start a world of trouble).

So who gets to make a save against an illused individual in your tavern?

EVERYONE?

I'll tell you something I have observed and consider a fact:

People don't pay attention. ESPECIALLY people in a comfortable environment. For the most part, five guys playing darts and drinking beer in an otherwise empty bar won't give you a second glance if you enter and sidle up to the bar to order a drink. Unless your exceptional in some way, or one of those five guys is exceptional in some way.

Seeing that illusions must be 'interacted with' before you get a save, I would think that the vast majority of people in your tavern example don't get a save. They probably didn't even look up at you when you walked in. Especially if its a busy tavern in a place where strange faces cruise in and out all the time.

Hell, even the bouncer might not have given you a scrutinizing look. You look small with no noticeable weapons he probably moved on. Generally something needs to stand out about you in a cursory glance to warrant a further inspection. (Now, this assumes a busy tavern in a busy place... a bouncer in an nearly empty tavern in a small village that doesn't get many visitors probably scrutinizes every individual that comes in, warranting that saving throw.)

I'm of the mind that merely looking up and noticing someone walking by and not giving them much of a second thought does not warrant a disbelief saving throw.

This would suggest to me that, in the tavern, the following people get to save: vigilant bouncer/guard, bartender/servers, and the paranoid man in the dark corner that notices EVERYTHING.

While it is true that there is usually a better disguising spell up the line using transmutation and that illusion spells should not become a catchall, impervious disguise... allowing every peasant, farmer, child, reveler, drunkard a save, when they're mostly just minding their own business, seems heavy handed.

[psycho_leo]

If you disguise yourself in a manner that draws attention, behave in a manner that draws attention, speak in a voice that simply doesn't match your appearance or stand too close or for a long time next to someone, NPCs will be making saves against your illusion. Other than that, regular people don't usually pay that much attention to others.

Note that a bouncer standing guard in teh entrance to that private room where very few people actually get to enter doesn't count as regular folk.

Unless you're paranoid or it's your job, you don't pay attention to every single detail about every single person that walks into a place where just about anyone can walk into. So unless someone has a reason to pay attention to one particular individual there should be no reason for a save.

[danielmn]

I'd agree also...your bartender is going to study you to make sure you don't run out without paying...

A bouncer if you are armed...

Perhaps (if you are in Sembia) a prostitute if you are the opposite sex... (maybe even same sex)

And the information gatherer for a theives guild that happens to be tucked away in the corner.

Maybe an offduty guard if you are armed as well.

I've played most of my PC's as unobservant in a relaxed setting...often not even noticing an NPC possessed they were so wrapped within their own thoughts, let alone someone walking by with a name floating above their head because I am constantly holding down the tab button who looks mighty different than normal....

safe to say 95% of the PC's I have/will play would not notice someone disguised they knew unless something stood out... (perhaps the spell didn't mask a certain sword whose hilt is one of a kind...)

[Zelknolf]

This would suggest to me that, in the tavern, the following people get to save: vigilant bouncer/guard, bartender/servers, and the paranoid man in the dark corner that notices EVERYTHING.

What about the guy you brush up against in the mean time who says "What the hell? That felt like metal..." ?

What about anyone who notes that body odor doesn't match appearance? (Yes, Toril is notably sans-deodorant and antipersperant; best you can do is wear strong perfumes and hope it mixes with the stink enough to not be offensive.)

What about, again, voices matching faces, sounds of wardrobes, sounds of gear, and the like?

What about the drunk fellow who just doesn't like the way you look?

What about a member of the opposite sex who thinks you illusory form is attractive?

What about anyone who thinks the illusory form is unattractive?

What about the fact that modern cities don't exist in Forgotten Realms, and people at Faerun's population densities at Faerun's technology level pay more attention to one another, and take more notice of the new people? :F

All of this, again, in the context that it takes one of these people to get lucky to say something and give everyone a save, and some of these people (how many of our bartenders are retired adventurers, after all?) don't even have to get lucky.

[JaydeMoon]

What about the guy you brush up against in the mean time who says "What the hell? That felt like metal..." ?

What about anyone who notes that body odor doesn't match appearance? (Yes, Toril is notably sans-deodorant and antipersperant; best you can do is wear strong perfumes and hope it mixes with the stink enough to not be offensive.)

What about, again, voices matching faces, sounds of wardrobes, sounds of gear, and the like?

What about the drunk fellow who just doesn't like the way you look?

What about a member of the opposite sex who thinks you illusory form is attractive?

What about anyone who thinks the illusory form is unattractive?

Concede that all of these guys might very possibly get a save against the illusion. The point I'm trying to make isn't that ONLY those I mentioned qualify but rather that not EVERYONE in the tavern just automatically gets to save by virtue of being "In the Presence of Illusion". Sorry if my example was less clear on that.

If your illusion doesn't 'change' your clothing overmuch, your stench matches, your voice matches, etc. etc. etc. yakkity schmakkity, I imagine it becomes DMs call who does or doesn't take an interest in your PC when you walk into a place. I mean, it's up to the DM to decide if the serving wench thinks your PC is attractive or unattractive. Up to the DM to decide if the drunks are being belligerent. There's no rule stating that 5% of tavern patrons will be attracted, 10% will be drunken assholes, 15% are dark roguish types at corner tables.

Obviously, if your 'disguise' is exceptional (you made yourself attractive, nobility, flashy, monstrous, etc) then more people are going to 'interact' with you. Obviously if you enter and start behaving erratically, loudly, suspiciously, etc then more people are going to notice you.

But does EVERYONE get a save just by virtue of you walking into a tavern?

What about the fact that modern cities don't exist in Forgotten Realms, and people at Faerun's population densities at Faerun's technology level pay more attention to one another, and take more notice of the new people? :F

You often back up your statements with quantifiable support, I'd like to see what you've got that supports this one! I agree we often take for granted how things are based on our own present societal standards and this is sometimes a mistake, but I don't know that I would accept this example to be true. Why would the poor, teeming masses in Selgaunt be more attentive to Joe Average walking down the street when compared to the busy, teeming masses in New York?

All of this, again, in the context that it takes one of these people to get lucky to say something and give everyone a save, and some of these people (how many of our bartenders are retired adventurers, after all?) don't even have to get lucky

Agreed. However, DM should take into account who it is that's piercing the illusion and what their own motivations are, I suppose. A seedy tavern known for clandestine meetings might be used to such things and, so long as you don't get rowdy or act dumb, simply ignore your deception. A bouncer at a respectable joint will surely interact, accosting you and drawing (unwanted) attention your way. The shady guy in the corner probably just noted your presence and filed that info away for possible future use.

There are a thousand scenarios and infinite combinations--

In the interest of ease, I feel you have two options:

1. Limit heavy-handed interpretation and allow for simplicity, giving benefit of the doubt to the players and requiring disbelief rolls only for direct interaction or exceptional circumstances (your armored warrior disguised as a breeches and tunic wearing rogue in a crowded tavern).

or

2. Assume that in any crowded place, SOMEBODY is going to notice the illusion, within moments, and pass that on to EVERYONE, rendering the illusion school nearly useless in any situation where any number of people are about, failure when using illusion spells being a foregone conclusion.

[wvincenti]

I would opt for option 1.
Scripting it in game would be interesting.

Option 2 is essentially what the spell does now.

-Bill

In the interest of ease, I feel you have two options:

1. Limit heavy-handed interpretation and allow for simplicity, giving benefit of the doubt to the players and requiring disbelief rolls only for direct interaction or exceptional circumstances (your armored warrior disguised as a breeches and tunic wearing rogue in a crowded tavern).

or

2. Assume that in any crowded place, SOMEBODY is going to notice the illusion, within moments, and pass that on to EVERYONE, rendering the illusion school nearly useless in any situation where any number of people are about, failure when using illusion spells being a foregone conclusion.

[JaydeMoon]

Bill, you're talking about the scripted in game mechanics?

yeah, that's what kind of brought the question on, noticing disguise self on a few individuals prompting will rolls from every Tom Dick and Harry that came within 50 feet.

[Zelknolf]

2. Assume that in any crowded place, SOMEBODY is going to notice the illusion, within moments, and pass that on to EVERYONE, rendering the illusion school nearly useless in any situation where any number of people are about, failure when using illusion spells being a foregone conclusion.

See, this is where you're going waaaaaaay overboard. This makes figments and glamers useless in any crowded area; I'd say that's about right, but that's only a few spells out of the illusion school (Ghost Sound, Disguise Self, Silent Image, Minor Image, Major Image, Seeming). In a crowded place, someone's going to notice, and that someone is going to call bullshit. Phantasms, patterns, and shadows are still decidedly potent, patterns especially against crowds of people.