A Land Far Away

How does it work in NWN2 and how is multiclassing viewed by ALFA and ALFA03 TSM in general.

Exact same way it works in 3.5.

Multiclassing is fine except for monks and paladins unless you are member of an order which allows multiclassing.

There's no stigma attached to multi-classing, in fact it's common enough. There are limitations to the Monk and Paladin class, but those are merely to bring them into line with the pen 'n' paper rules.

Although I expect you'd get mauled by an awakened celestial fiendish axiomatic anarchic shadow dire weasel if you even become a druid-monk...

everyone knows wiz/monk of kossuth is win.

Thanks, trying to plan my character's advancement out.

hollyfant wrote:There's no stigma attached to multi-classing,

This is not completely true. Some particular combinations have been known to attract accusations of PGing/twinking/whathaveyou in the past, one very old example that comes to mind was taking a single level of ranger for the dual-wield in nwn1. These have been the exception rather than the rule though. If you have questions about your intended combination, a quick PM to a DM should be enough to get the desired feedback.

Stigma may be a matter of personal opinion. Your patron DM may say "this is fine", 10% of fellow players may disagree.

Included in this may be taking classes that seem to require a bit of IC training, without any IC support. Illiterate barbarian level 1 (the only class that is assumed not to read and write as of creation), chooses wizard at level 2, for example... the most "book" dependent class you can imagine. Maybe there's a great story there, which is dandy. If there's no story, i.e., killed 1000xp worth of rats and clicked "wizard" on level up, maybe less dandy. Not illegal, but not likely to win any praise for good RP.

I would say that most of the stigma associated with multiclassing has to do with class dipping: 2 levels of paladin for divine grace, so you may enjoy weapon proficiencies and massive saves as a sorcerer; 2 levels of ranger for tracking, animal empathy, and combat style so you may be eerily versatile as a rogue; 1 level of monk for +2 to all saves, +wis to AC, unarmed combat (and flurry of blows) so you may romp about as a less-shankable druid, cleric, or favored soul, 2 levels of fighter for proficiencies and feats so you can be a full plate barb with exotic weapons... yeah, you get the idea. These things overcome the "opportunity cost" (which is to say that, in theory, your monk 2/drd X is okay is because having those 2 monk levels means 2 fewer levels in a primary casting class) argument because of the way they're done compared to PnP. No movement penalties for heavy armor; no movement penalties for dwarves/gnomes/halflings; NWN/NWN2's encumberance shows no penalty until PnP's "heavy load" (making a sorc with a tower shield much more feasible, when in PnP it pretty much garauntees a medium load - and thus a move penalty); ceasing to be flat-footed is much smoother and quicker than in PnP; evasion works in medium/heavy armor and when helpless.

But, yeah, rgr/rog is the generic "bad multiclassing" example that gets pointed at, but how many complain about rgr 5/rog 5? Same thing with monk/drd or monk/clr... yeah, that'd be epic fail if there was only 1 or 2 monk levels (depending on whether or not the character wants evasion), but clr 5/monk 5? There's an order of Ilmateri on that plan. We had a nice discussion of the stuff in the old APM, but it seems to be long gone -- I want to say it got nuked somewhere between versions 3 and 4? Certainly before it went up on the current website.

...you get the idea. I personally don't believe level-dipping to be inherently illegitimate, and making builds that are survivable or even powerful is part of the game, but this is not a universal sentiment. When in doubt, ask a DM.

Zelk brings up a good point of reference. I usually frown slightly when I see one or two levels of a certain class from a high level unless that PC is actively persuing that class. One or two levels in something just to reap the initial handouts to stay alive benefits is a bit uncalled for. If you have even levels though, it tends to get veiwed in a better light, ie 2/2 or 4/4 or 3/4.

IMO the rule of thumb on multiclassing should be that as long as the classes you take make sense from an RP perspective (and fall within any special ALFA multiclassing rules) then you are OK. Taking levels in a particular class simply for the feats or bonuses available without actually RPing that class or at least having something in your background about it to justify it I think might qualify as a type of powergaming. Take the ranger/rogue for example. If your PC was born in a log cabin in the woods and taught the ways of the wilds by his father, but then left his home for the cities and began using his skills at stealth and tracking to become a spy or thief, I would say the combination works, even with one level ranger and the rest rogue. Conversely, a rogue character who takes a level in cleric, for example, simply for the benefit of "free" healing magic, without any RP or story line to back up the class selection is probably powergaming, at least IMO.

As to taking "even" levels of classes when you MC, again IMO it depends on the RP reasons behind it and how the character is played. I can see for example a character who starts out as a fighter and then proceeds exclusively as a wizard thereafter because in his background his noble parents always wanted him to be a knight like dear old dad but he really always wanted to study magic. So when he leaves home to go adventuring he leaves behind the armor and picks up the books. I recently retired a character on TSM that was a lvl 2 barb/ level 4 ranger wild elf. I started him off as a barb in recognition of the "wild" elf class, and his adolescence isolated from any civilization. Took second level as Barb as well because he was not away from home long enough to learn something new IMO. After that I took exclusively ranger levels, and had I not retired him probably would have continued to do so. My thinking was this reflected a continued affinity for the wilds but a "softening" of his barbarism due to his exposure to civilization and interaction with other races in the Marches.

Some might call the above rationalizations, but I think it is legit RP, and don't believe a close MC split is a necessity depending on the story and how the PC is RPd. IMO multiclassing allows for a more diverse and dynamic character both in terms of the class traits and from a story/RP perspective. I'm not a DM or anything, just my 2 cents.

[edited to add discussion of level split on multiclassing]

See, here's the problem with that, though.

You've got a dex-based class: ranger. They need strength, sure, when they're in the melee; they need constitution to not die; if they want spells, they need a little wisdom. Alright; those are rarely more than 14 (wisdom rarely more than 12.) But they're in light armor and dual wield finessable weapons (or use bows), which means that a dexterity of at least 16 is involved, and a dex up around 22 is highly useful (If you can buff up to 26, enchanted padded armor looks awfully appealing). Big weakness of the class? No uncanny dodge. They get reamed when flanked or flat-footed, and the class is thus prevented from trying to put its martial parts (mid hit points in 3.5, high hit points in 3.0; high BAB) to the role of a tank (who would be expected to be able to fight multiple foes at once). Add that the barbarian rage lacks its primary weakness in ALFA (you don't get winded) and you've got a very powerful combination. Now, maybe it is justified; As far as I know, the policy for ALFA is that any combination justified by good RP is excused from the "OMG teh PG!" clauses, and the only time I recall someone really getting in trouble for a character build was a 4 cha Svirfneblin monk.

Personally, I don't think that a story which includes your character begining a life as an adventurer as the justification for a class dip is kosher. It is the RP equivelant of stacking the deck. (oh, my monk of the old order came to the Dales, where there are forests, and they changed his life! Drood levels plz! Silvanus is good kthx.) Though that statement does hinge on the idea that it has to be a class dip, where the character is made for the acquired and primarily-advanced class -- a barb 2/rgr 4 with a build like a barb? Say a half-orc with 18/14/14/10/12/8, with the level 1 feat put into weapon focus: spear? I don't think I mind so much... if I'm DMing, that character is going to have exactly one hell of a time finding any +dex items. He can have a cool spear and some +2 str gauntlets, but I'd make the sucker work to amp up the synergy. But, say a barb 2/rgr 4 with 14/16/14/12/12/10, level 1 feat is stealthy. I'd call foul play. Worse if it's an elf and there's 18 dex involved.

ALFA has enough problems without it starting to try to police this.

Vendrin wrote:ALFA has enough problems without it starting to try to police this.

Agreed, Ven, imo, though I haven't been around long, so long as the person can RP it, I see no problem with it. Sure people min/max, but people always will on some level -- who wants a character who is a fighter with low str, dex, and con, but high int, wis, and cha. It's a viable character to play -- he knows all about war and the use of weapons, that's why he has so many feats, but he can't use them effectively. Sure these guys make for good NPC's and bit characters, but in a world where you are allowed only one character, you want him to be able to survive so that you can build on his story.
I agree that if a character has Stealthy as the level one feat and was a barbarian is most likely PG'ing, but until the person is found simply going for the XP and stops RP'ing as a barbarian who hunts by sneaking up then going apeshit on his prey, I don't see why the person would be penalized. Faerun is filled with every imaginable character, and their respective levels don't necessarily reflect that perfectly. Hell, if you look in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, Elminster has class levels something like 1/2/3/15/20, or some-such. Would you accuse him of PG'ing? I don't think so, he simply went through those aspects in his life that made him take that one level of rogue.
Ultimately, to me, anyway, the class doesn't mean much, it's what use take from the class that defines you. Let's say your person has always wanted to be an assassin, but has levels in something like sorc, well, the easiest path for him to focus on to train with some elite cadre of assassins (and pick up the prestige class through said training) would be to multiclass rogue if for nothing else but the skill points, that class level could represent that they were willing to put the time and training into learning a different style of life for an end result -- people do it in real life all the time. That's what pre-medical programs in colleges are, they are training and changing something about themselves to become something later -- a doctor.
Anyway, that's the way I look at it in my house games of PnP, but then again, there is the difference there in that a DM in PnP has ultimate power and is not limited by an interface...

Lucas Manderik wrote: Hell, if you look in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, Elminster has class levels something like 1/2/3/15/20, or some-such. Would you accuse him of PG'ing?

Yes. And I do. Frequently.