Psychologists and torture

[NickD]

Sure, I'd go. I'd love to visit some of the ancient sites there, including parts of baghdad itself.. Now, I wouldn't go unarmed, but that is intelligence, not fear. Trends show that the region is dangerous for westerners. Still, you offer me a plane ticket tomorrow, and I'd be there.

So, if you had a gun in Baghdad you'd be safe enough because:

A) You are an American and Iraqi insurgents/opportunistic kidnappers are only sub human so they don't know how to use a gun properly.
B) You're really good at FPSes, and you can kill hundreds of people in those games and still have over half your health left without having to reload once.
C) You're a teenager and you're too young for anything bad to happen to you.
D) All of the above.



You may be intelligent, but you aren't very smart.

[Nekulor]

Oh no, I know it wouldn't be safe, but I'd enjoy the trip and try to blend in with the locals. I'm not naive enough to believe my gunplay skills are better than Iranian trained insurgents. That would be a stupid and egotistical assumption.

I'm a bit of a daredevil anyway, so putting myself in such a possibly life threatening situation gives me a rush. You just have to be smart about how you go about it.

[Mulu]

Still, you offer me a plane ticket tomorrow, and I'd be there.

Once you turn 18, your ticket is waiting for you. They'll even give you a gun for free.

[psycho_leo]

I shall only make one comment and one comment alone: if the person in question is a KNOWN terrorist, then I honestly don't care what they do to them, helpful or not.

Great way to stoop to their level. That's the mentality that gets all the "I hate the US" feeling spread around the world. Also, by now you should have realized that torture is not employed only against known terrorists.
By that way, that professed hate of yours do come from fear, even though you either don't realize or admit.

[Nekulor]

No leo, I think its just utter disdain for their stated goals. It would have to be pretty damn indirectly linked to fear. I mean, death doesn't really scare me, because I know that I'll either a) end up in a better place or b) cease to exist, so it won't matter. I'm 99% sure its a though, but I thought I'd throw the atheists among us a bone. I assume somewhere the root of all hate is fear, but my only guess could be a rather irrational fear of the end of my way of life. Honestly though, they really don't make enough impact to do that much damage, or haven't yet.

All terrorists have the monopoly on is death through rather cowardly, guerrilla tactics.

Now, that said, I don't condone the torture of anyone, but exceptions can be made for terrorists. I caution against it due to current US image issues abroad, but ultimately it is up to the intelligence agencies.

What I still don't understand though is why a few of you here expect me to care about the well being of a terrorist. I just can't understand how you could feel compassion for a person like that, I really don't. Please, explain to me how you do it, because I am honestly amazed that you can.

[Zakharra]

While in no way would I ever justify the actions of a terrorist, don't you think this "I don't care what we do to them" attitude is what creates terrorists in the first place? I mean, if America was all about peace and love, do you really think it would still be the target of terrorism?

Yes.

Well, obviously no. Terrorism is diplomacy through other means, and if we weren't involved in manipulating and exploiting the Middle East, there would be no reason to engage us, politically or otherwise. Remember, we *made* Al Qaida, or more accurately the CIA did, to fight the Soviets. A country that is all about peace and love doesn't do things like that in the first place. Of course, we wouldn't be anywhere near as wealthy if we were that nice either. There is a reason the US exploits and manipulates other countries, it's profitable in the short term. There is that unfortunate long term cost in lack of security and fostering terrorist responses.

Remember, the 9/11 attackers had *legitimate* complaints about us. Doesn't mean it was right to attack, but it was understandable. Don't think they are *just* chaotic evil crazy. They do have some rationale for their behavior, though granted most of it is chaotic evil religious nuttiness.

No. That is just your wishful thinking. The terrorists are not rational as you see them. They want to make us into their image or kill us. The society thay want isn't a rational or sane/safe one. Would you want to live in it? You want to live under shai'ria law? Being made to either pray to Mecca or pay a tax and become a secondclass citizens with little rights and no way to move up the ladder of society? I doubt it. I want to be free to do what I want. They do not, so I would end up dead.

[sgould72]

What I still don't understand though is why a few of you here expect me to care about the well being of a terrorist. I just can't understand how you could feel compassion for a person like that, I really don't. Please, explain to me how you do it, because I am honestly amazed that you can.

I don't. But I do care about our values, history, and tradition. Which don't include torture and cruelty. And by my way of thinking, our pursuing those things out of fear of terrorism is a victory for them.

[Grand Fromage]

What I still don't understand though is why a few of you here expect me to care about the well being of a terrorist. I just can't understand how you could feel compassion for a person like that, I really don't. Please, explain to me how you do it, because I am honestly amazed that you can.

Do you understand the concepts of the rule of law and morality? It's not about compassion.

[Mulu]

All terrorists have the monopoly on is death through rather cowardly, guerrilla tactics.

Well, a missle is pretty cowardly too.

What I still don't understand though is why a few of you here expect me to care about the well being of a terrorist.

As mentioned it's really more about us than them. Acting like a monster, even towards other monsters, means you *are* a monster.

[Mulu]

The terrorists are not rational as you see them.

I don't see them as terribly rational. I do, however, know enough about the history of the region and our involvement in it to know they have damn good reasons to hate us.

They want to make us into their image or kill us. The society thay want isn't a rational or sane/safe one. Would you want to live in it?

No, nor would I want to live in the equally repressive Christian society that right wingers in our own country are trying to create. All religions are evil when taken to an extreme.

[Zakharra]

The terrorists are not rational as you see them.

I don't see them as terribly rational. I do, however, know enough about the history of the region and our involvement in it to know they have damn good reasons to hate us.

But you are saying that they would be rational if the US was about peace and love. Their stated goal isn't one of peace and love and joy.

They want to make us into their image or kill us. The society thay want isn't a rational or sane/safe one. Would you want to live in it?

No, nor would I want to live in the equally repressive Christian society that right wingers in our own country are trying to create. All religions are evil when taken to an extreme.

True, but right now the terrorists are using violence to get their ends and the right wong christians are working within the system. You want to stop the, do it that way. Not thru terrorist violence.

[NickD]

If I had a dollar for every time a Christian has suggested that I cannot have a moral system as I am an athiest...

I mean, death doesn't really scare me, because I know that I'll either a) end up in a better place or b) cease to exist, so it won't matter. I'm 99% sure its a though, but I thought I'd throw the atheists among us a bone.

...

Now, that said, I don't condone the torture of anyone, but exceptions can be made for terrorists.

...

What I still don't understand though is why a few of you here expect me to care about the well being of a terrorist. I just can't understand how you could feel compassion for a person like that, I really don't. Please, explain to me how you do it, because I am honestly amazed that you can.

Luke 6:27-31
Matthew 5:38-42
Leviticus 19:18
Romans 12:17-21
1 Peter 2:23

[NickD]

While in no way would I ever justify the actions of a terrorist, don't you think this "I don't care what we do to them" attitude is what creates terrorists in the first place? I mean, if America was all about peace and love, do you really think it would still be the target of terrorism?

Yes.

Well, obviously no. Terrorism is diplomacy through other means, and if we weren't involved in manipulating and exploiting the Middle East, there would be no reason to engage us, politically or otherwise. Remember, we *made* Al Qaida, or more accurately the CIA did, to fight the Soviets. A country that is all about peace and love doesn't do things like that in the first place. Of course, we wouldn't be anywhere near as wealthy if we were that nice either. There is a reason the US exploits and manipulates other countries, it's profitable in the short term. There is that unfortunate long term cost in lack of security and fostering terrorist responses.

Remember, the 9/11 attackers had *legitimate* complaints about us. Doesn't mean it was right to attack, but it was understandable. Don't think they are *just* chaotic evil crazy. They do have some rationale for their behavior, though granted most of it is chaotic evil religious nuttiness.

No. That is just your wishful thinking. The terrorists are not rational as you see them. They want to make us into their image or kill us. The society thay want isn't a rational or sane/safe one. Would you want to live in it? You want to live under shai'ria law? Being made to either pray to Mecca or pay a tax and become a secondclass citizens with little rights and no way to move up the ladder of society? I doubt it. I want to be free to do what I want. They do not, so I would end up dead.

No. That is just your paranoia. Now, I am more than willing to admit we are not the little angels much of the world seems to think we are, but in New Zealand our army is geared towards peace keeping. When we send troops into an actual war, the majority of them are medical and engineers. Our troops in Afghanistan reportedly don't like working with the Americans or Australians because after building up goodwill, your lot come in and destroy it. Our intelligence agency doesn't meddle in international affairs. We don't even have an attack wing in our air force! And strangely enough, to the best of my knowledge, the only external terrorist attack we have suffered was just over 20 years ago and that was by the French secret service.

Thinking you could screw people around and not get any consequences from them it is not rational either. It's like my nephews getting a shock when they are punished for misbehaving. Except they're 5 and 3.

[Zakharra]

Not really Nick. They have made their goles fairly plain. They want the US and Israel destroyed and are willing to use very nasty means to do so. Including, chemical, biological and nuclear if they could do it. Their main targets? Not military, but civilian.

We gave up that form of warfare officially a while ago. Our targets are military. It's unfortunate that there are misses and the enemy hides in a civilian population.

One possible reason they hate us is because we are #1 in the world. In economic, cultural and militar. They are faced with the fact thgat their culture hasn't done much to advance in the last 500 years or so. I know this is not all of the reasons, or even the main one, but it is one. Envy.

It comes down to one question for me. Am I willing to live in a world they run? No. there for they have to be fought, and I am afraid the butchers bill will be getting very high before one side or another wins. Platitudes will not stop them. I do not believe that any peace treaty that they would uphold for very long.

Are you willing to live in a world they run? Yes or no. If yes, then better start practicing praying to Mecca. If not, learn to fight.

[Nekulor]

If I had a dollar for every time a Christian has suggested that I cannot have a moral system as I am an athiest...

I mean, death doesn't really scare me, because I know that I'll either a) end up in a better place or b) cease to exist, so it won't matter. I'm 99% sure its a though, but I thought I'd throw the atheists among us a bone.

...

Now, that said, I don't condone the torture of anyone, but exceptions can be made for terrorists.

...

What I still don't understand though is why a few of you here expect me to care about the well being of a terrorist. I just can't understand how you could feel compassion for a person like that, I really don't. Please, explain to me how you do it, because I am honestly amazed that you can.

Luke 6:27-31
Matthew 5:38-42
Leviticus 19:18
Romans 12:17-21
1 Peter 2:23

Point made. However, I wouldn't claim to be perfect. I still can't not hate them. I've tried, but every time I do, I get this overwhelming urge to beat one of the convicted terrorists we have with a blunt rock. Their crimes are just too heinous for me to say, "You know what... I can forgive that." Besides, they don't show any remorse for their crimes, even when they kill innocent women and children in the name of god. The same god, by the way, that I follow, but under a different name. They are killing people WHO FOLLOW A VARIATION OF THE SAME RELIGION. I don't see a whole lot of rationality in that. Its unfortunate that those bastards even qualify as brothers in a similar faith.