Amnesty attacks US over abuses

[Nekulor]

I disagree with stormseeker, actual torture is probably occurring, its just the majority of us don't care. If they waterboard a person suspected and detained for terrorism, they probably
a)Have a reason, like they have verified he is an enemy combatant and
b) are under FBI or CIA supervision to make it effective.

This isn't like Abu Graihb where prisoners were tortured and dehumanized for fun.

[Swift]

I disagree with stormseeker, actual torture is probably occurring, its just the majority of us don't care.

A sign that your society and your democracy is terribly sick and diseased.

it's not as if the same interrogation techniques, such as waterboarding, were used in the past as torture in Nazi Germany by convicted war criminals...

Oh, wait.

One can only hope, then, that some of the current administration who allowed that kind of torture to happen find themselves facing a warcrimes tribunal in the decades to come then, hmm?

[Nekulor]

Swift, I know this argument is going in circles, but please, explain to me why I should care about a bunch of detained middle eastern men in Guantanamo Bay and elsewhere. I really would like to know what is so abhorrent about my ambivalence.

[Swift]

Swift, I know this argument is going in circles, but please, explain to me why I should care about a bunch of detained middle eastern men in Guantanamo Bay and elsewhere. I really would like to know what is so abhorrent about my ambivalence.

Because if the same happened to a fellow american, you would be absolutely baying for the blood of those doing it, particularly if the circumstances were the same (Held for 5 years without charge and without any evidence to charge them with). Anybody that has an ounce of care for human decency would be concerned about what the US is doing in regards to Gitmo. It is sad that some of you here are proud to say you dont give a fuck about any of that.

[Nekulor]

But they do torture Americans, and the international community at large DOES NOT SEEM TO CARE!! Thus, I don't care if we reciprocate for those we have detained, because there is a double standard. The evil people of this world can do it without reprise, but we do it and every court on the planet wants to court marshall/ convict for warcrimes any person involved. If the international political situation changes from this ass backwards double standard, then maybe I'll start caring about the rights of people who really don't deserve them in the first place.

The last time something similar happened to a US citizen was the Iranian Hostage Crisis, and I didn't see any other nations stepping up to tell Iran to give the hostages back to us or face multinational military action. It may have been mentioned, but it was never seriously threatened, because the world is AFRAID of the middle east and the people there. They are AFRAID we will provoke world war III if we don't give in to these people. I'm tired of people smiling and saying wonderfully nice things to people like Amadinejhad who deserve to be shot and left to die in a hole. Where have the backbones of people gone in the past 60 years? Is this the same species that stood against Adolf Hitler and showed the world that not only is tyranny not OK, but that it won't be tolerated so long as free people everywhere care about democracy? I'm beginning to think we lost something when the world started this stupid "War never solved anything" crap we picked up along the way. No, war hasn't really ever solved anything, but it has told bad people to sit down, shut the hell up and go along for the ride.

[Swift]

The evil people of this world can do it without reprise, but we do it and every court on the planet wants to court marshall/ convict for warcrimes any person involved.

Honestly, if you are too dumb/ignorant to work out exactly why this is the case, there is nobody here that can explain it to you.

Stooping to the level of your enemy makes you no better than they are, no matter what justifications you tell yourself. You do not have to be middle eastern and wearing a bomb belt to be a terrorist.

If the international political situation changes from this ass backwards double standard, then maybe I'll start caring about the rights of people who really don't deserve them in the first place.

The whole basis of your justice system is innocent until proven guilty, yet you do nothing and, in fact, seem to be quite happy to judge these men guilty (of what crimes i do not know, since most still have not been charged with any sort of wrong doing) and use that as your reasoning for ignoring the blatant human rights abuses of your country.

[Nekulor]

Well, then maybe the bastards just need a taste of their own medicine.


No, I know why its the case, because they can't catch the terrorists, and when they do, Amnesty International shows up with a team of lawyers to represent him! Due process for terrorist leaders should consist of a gun, a bullet, and a hole in the ground.

[Grand Fromage]

Swift, I know this argument is going in circles, but please, explain to me why I should care about a bunch of detained Japanese. I really would like to know what is so abhorrent about my ambivalence. I mean, people that look like them attacked Hawaii, clearly they're all evil. And it's not like there's anything in the Constitution about fair trials or cruel punishment without conviction or imprisoning people forever without charging them with any crimes.

[Nekulor]

Sorry GF, I didn't know Unlawful combatants were given Habeas corpus under the US constitution. By the way, they have NO POW STATUS and are essentially not allowed the right to trial by peers.
Here is an excerpt of the 2005 law that details this, amended 2006:
"No court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the United States who has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination." 28 U.S.C. 2241(e)(1) (Section 7)

In other words, no non-citizen held as a potential unlawful enemy combatant may seek habeas corpus relief. Such detainees must simply wait until the military sees fit to convene a detainee status review tribunal (under the procedures described in the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005).

They have to wait for military status hearings, and because all detainees not classified as lawful enemy combatants or civilians under GCIII, article 4, they are subject to our domestic laws, which have been determined to hand them over to the military until status as a combatant can be determined.

[sgould72]

You are such a giant fsking retard you are never going to get this. Put aside the whole argument as to whether or not torture is acceptable for someone who is actually guilty of terrorism, because that is secandary to the huge stinking heap of steaming bullsh*t that is the practice of torturing an innocent. You can't talk about justice, or even vengence if you are just randomly pulling people out of a crowd and twisting the screws on them. What you are essentially advocating is that it is perfectly acceptable for the military to round up everyone on your block, including you, and torture you to death because they believe a sleeper cell is operating somewhere in your city and you *might* know something. You never did anything wrong, you are just minding your business, but suddenly you are on the business end of a waterboard. You mean to tell me you think that's ok? Don't drag any more of your horse crap about terrorists in this. It is not about them. Yes, they are horrible excuses for human beings and I might be inclined to help hook up the electrodes on them. But this is about John Doe Innoncent who just happens to be standing on the wrong street corner when the gestapo drives by and gets snatched. There has got to be a due process to determine guilt BEFORE you start seperating people from their body parts.

Jesus some people take stupid to a whole new level.

[NickD]

There is a difference in being guilty and not having enough evidence to prosecute, all you have to do is point toward the O.J. case.
I have no doubt that there are some people down there that was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. But come on, what they are experiencing in gitmo is just a longer version of a college hazing.

Haven't hundreds of people around the world been killed by hazing? And many many more been sexually abused?

Which is why hazing is now illegal in a lot of places...

[Veilan]

Well, the problem is that I could understand the arguments - not agreeing to them, but understanding them - if torturing suspects actually helped. It doesn't help in obtaining reliable information however, and it sure as hell doesn't help with the higher ground, building international support, or convincing me why we, the western democracies, are the good guys.

Imho, all these overreactions from the administration in encouraging torture and ever more restrictions on the democratic society shows that the terrorists really hit where it hurts. Their beestings hurt, and the elephant america thrashes about violently, in rightful, yet unguided anger. You're definetely not pursuing the most effective path in vanquishing your enemies by dragging Ali olive-skin off the streets to torture him on the off chance he may supply valuable evidence. The only thing you are achieving is catering to the illusion of security, through satisfying vengeance, and convincing people "something is done" - and if something carries a high moral cost, people that are convinced in their government's good intentions are more likely to believe it is effective - after all, a good government would only agree to something like that if it is worth it, no?

It isn't worth it, however. All the so easily dismissed arguments of humanity and compassion aside (they are, after all, a matter of emotional choice and conscience, and thus can be easily dismissed if you do not share these views), what I think the biggest problem is that our fellow american friends - and they are that, they have proven so throughout history - are getting off the track. The enemy is elusive, frustrating, desperately mad and cunning. You cannot defeat him, and by stinging you more and more and making people react more and more violently to him, out of frustration and helplessness, he's being able to gather more and more support, more and more recruits, and keeping the conflict going. You are not stepping on the bee hive, you're chasing single bees with fighter jets. And as a collateral damage, just why your society is good and morally superiour gets eroded point by point, because you are in genuine fear and hatred of your enemy.

The current course simply cannot lead to victory. I'm not saying using force is bad - but it has to be applied with a cool and level head, without frothy-mouthed calls of blood and vengeance, with a clear determination that applies the force of the most powerful nation on earth where it is necessary, in a fashion that is justifiable to all but die-hard pacifists.

It is undoubtedly, at first glance, a dauntingly more difficult path - but it is far more efficient in obtaining victory, which cannot be gained on the battlefield short of levelling whole countries.

[Lusipher]

sign that your society and your democracy is terribly sick and diseased

And your country is one of our greatest allies and hey..you were founded as this huge prison colony. All the dregs and mentally ill were the basis of your society. Sick and diseased, indeed.

The whole issue is moot. If you dont care for doing what has to be done to extract information that could actually save lives (even those of australians) then you dont. Its still going to happen regardless of what a congress or whatever will end up saying, because we arent going to sit around and wait for another 9-11 to happen here in the US. We were blind once and the hood came off. Regardless of the morons who want us to put the hood back on its not gonna happen.

[Grand Fromage]

idiocy

Fortunately you defeated your own "argument".

The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.

As we are not under invasion, nor is there a rebellion, the suspension of habeas corpus was a direct violation of the law. Everyone involved should be detained without trial, by your own twisted excuse for logic.

If you don't comprehend what's wrong about arresting people and imprisoning them indefinitely without charges, there is something fundamentally broken in your brain. Perhaps you lack one. I am all for capturing and punishing terrorists, if they are convicted by a trial. What the fuck is wrong with you that you think lawfully trying people for crimes is worse than falsely imprisoning and torturing them?

[paazin]

this thread is suck. lockpls