Oz, Land of the Free and Home of the...

[FoamBats4All]

The sign on the door just above his head says 'Fitting Room'

I don't think he'd fit.

[Adanu]

Srry don't mean to get all revolutionary on ya..but it was why we were guarenteed the right to keep and bear arms.

Sorry, but, heres your second amendment as it appears in the US constitution:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed

Are you part of a militia? I would bet 99% of American gun owners are not. The second amendment has been perverted over the years, to the point that people only remember the end of it and use it as justification for owning weapons that have no right to be in the hands of civilians (I am talking military grade hardware that is available in many, many US states).

So the right to bear arms is not really a right at all unless you are part of a militia designed to keep the government honest

Using the 'letter' of the law to attack the spirit of the law doesn't make you right; it makes you just as bad as the politicians trying to take away guns based on fear and paranoia.

[Swift]

Hey, I'm Australian, in the end, I don't particularly give a crap what ultimately happens, but the level of gun violence in America will continue to be laughed at by much of the rest of the world that is not suffering such issues because a lobby group filled with gun nuts doesn't have anywhere near the power.

How is it that Canada can have just as many guns but nowhere near the same level of gun related crime? Why do we not hear about Canadian school shootings every few months?

Australia went harsh on guns after the Port Arthur massacre over 15 years ago. All the doom and gloom the NRA craps on about happening if the guns are taken away has so far failed to eventuate over here, which is why the struggles for gun reform are such a joke to me.

[kid]

Im not sure where in "the spirit of the law" you get the right to shoot thing for fun, or even defend your home. if someone is abusing the letter of the law its those that only see the end of it and go Yay, we can shoot stuff!

American gun laws are just plain silly.
And yeah, thats comming from a dude that lives in a country that gives a gun to every 18 year old fella with two arms and a semi working brain.
you have a county full of people who know how to use gun, have been responsible for one for 3 years (they kick your ass hard if you don't treat your gun well in the army, leave it somewhere, etc.) and even after all that we still dont let people get guns as easily once they leave the service.

It doesnt take a genious to realise that handing out guns on demand is not the brightest idea...
Im surprised it even needs to be argued.

But, yeah, enjoy your freedom to kill each other.

[Stormseeker]

lol Ok i will jump in. Its a risk we take to insure our freedom. Go look at the facts on the amount of deaths do to other causes. Still we have cars that go fast,drinking is still in effect, and you can play with knives all you want.

Now before you talk about somebody else protecting my freedom's....well my grandfathers where ww2 vets...one of them shot 11 times total by the Japs.(and lived)
The other one had a good friend who talked with a funny accent who fled here to be safe....he was a german jew. Put that in combo with me being part native american.....and there is no way you can convince me to give up my guns for my family's safety.

Each generation thinks they are more "culturally advanced and smarter" than the last. But as far back as written history shows us we are doomed to repeat the same mass violence and death upon ourselves and our neighbors.

[Dorn]

we are doomed to repeat the same mass violence and death upon ourselves and our neighbors.

Agreed. Damn human nature!!!

It would,however, be nice to make it harder to kill school kids next time. Wouldn't it?

I mean, a bolt action or small clip rifle that farmers need to keep predators off their livestock would make it harder to do 'mass' death than if you could buy an Uzi or other assult type guns?

I've always thought a mugger/robber would think twice if they had to you a knife or fists. May not stop all of them, we have murders in Australia, but not many mass ones.

[Adanu]

Hey, I'm Australian, in the end, I don't particularly give a crap what ultimately happens, but the level of gun violence in America will continue to be laughed at by much of the rest of the world that is not suffering such issues because a lobby group filled with gun nuts doesn't have anywhere near the power.

How is it that Canada can have just as many guns but nowhere near the same level of gun related crime? Why do we not hear about Canadian school shootings every few months?

Australia went harsh on guns after the Port Arthur massacre over 15 years ago. All the doom and gloom the NRA craps on about happening if the guns are taken away has so far failed to eventuate over here, which is why the struggles for gun reform are such a joke to me.

Australia is not the US. Don't compare.

[Stormseeker]

When i go to the va hospital,social security office,bank, sports function,etc....there is armed guard or law enforcement official there. My kids school is the only place that is not guarded.
The people who do this are looking for easy targets that can't fight back. Sure our mental health needs a over hall, But banning guns is not the way to stop this.
I would like to see some vets and dav's employed as armed guards in our schools, hell some of us would volunteer and provided our own weapons. One thing that does bother me is some of our leaders detest the idea of guns in our schools for protection but their kids go to privates schools with armed guards.

Once someone has began the path to a act of violence, only violence or the threat of violence will stop them.

[Swift]

Hey, I'm Australian, in the end, I don't particularly give a crap what ultimately happens, but the level of gun violence in America will continue to be laughed at by much of the rest of the world that is not suffering such issues because a lobby group filled with gun nuts doesn't have anywhere near the power.

How is it that Canada can have just as many guns but nowhere near the same level of gun related crime? Why do we not hear about Canadian school shootings every few months?

Australia went harsh on guns after the Port Arthur massacre over 15 years ago. All the doom and gloom the NRA craps on about happening if the guns are taken away has so far failed to eventuate over here, which is why the struggles for gun reform are such a joke to me.

Australia is not the US. Don't compare.

So what comparison should be made? Or is America a pretty and unique snowflake that should be held above others? Your endless gun violence would suggest otherwise. Or should we make comparisons to Countries with a similar level of gun violence, at which point we would probably need to look toward former Soviet countries or failing African nations? Maybe south Africa?

Home of the free and land of the brave? One must wonder, especially when combined with the shocking erosion of civil liberties since 9/11 went down.

Storm: Guess what I see when I go to a hospital? Doctors and nurses. Sports function? Security, almost never with guns. Bank? No armed guards.

You know why? Because we do not have the batshit crazy gun culture that pervades every inch of America. I can go to a hospital, or bank, or social security office or anywhere else and feel quite safe because I can look around and go "the gun count in this place is 0 and the likelihood of someone entering with a gun is so remote as to not even be considered"

How can so many people fail to see that you do not need hundreds of millions of guns to be safe?

[Adanu]

Hey, I'm Australian, in the end, I don't particularly give a crap what ultimately happens, but the level of gun violence in America will continue to be laughed at by much of the rest of the world that is not suffering such issues because a lobby group filled with gun nuts doesn't have anywhere near the power.

How is it that Canada can have just as many guns but nowhere near the same level of gun related crime? Why do we not hear about Canadian school shootings every few months?

Australia went harsh on guns after the Port Arthur massacre over 15 years ago. All the doom and gloom the NRA craps on about happening if the guns are taken away has so far failed to eventuate over here, which is why the struggles for gun reform are such a joke to me.

Australia is not the US. Don't compare.

So what comparison should be made? Or is America a pretty and unique snowflake that should be held above others? Your endless gun violence would suggest otherwise. Or should we make comparisons to Countries with a similar level of gun violence, at which point we would probably need to look toward former Soviet countries or failing African nations? Maybe south Africa?

Home of the free and land of the brave? One must wonder, especially when combined with the shocking erosion of civil liberties since 9/11 went down.

Storm: Guess what I see when I go to a hospital? Doctors and nurses. Sports function? Security, almost never with guns. Bank? No armed guards.

You know why? Because we do not have the batshit crazy gun culture that pervades every inch of America. I can go to a hospital, or bank, or social security office or anywhere else and feel quite safe because I can look around and go "the gun count in this place is 0 and the likelihood of someone entering with a gun is so remote as to not even be considered"

How can so many people fail to see that you do not need hundreds of millions of guns to be safe?

The US has a whole list of uncommon and somewhat unique things going for it. Your bias about culture and calling it 'batshit crazy' does nothing to endear me to caring about trying to debate with you. Good day.

[kid]

It sounds silly from over here.
but I get it. its how you lot were raised. that gunslinger myth and that "right" is very strong in the US and its how you're educated in many ways.
But just understand that to the rest of the world it seems kinda nuts to allow people go around carring tools that kill people for no real reason.

But i'll admit I don't know statistics.
Maybe you lot are right and there's not a whole lot of gun voilance in America.
Maybe its a wonderful everlasting Mexican stand off where no one ever shoots anyone ever.

As for Adanu, I shall wish for you what everyone should allways wish for you:
Enjoy your ignorance.
Wait, you do that anyways.
Oh, no I should not have said that... he has a gun!

[causk]

The overall much higher us homicide rate seems more worrisome than gun violence itself. What exactly causes it and what can be done about it, will no doubt be good for many a dissertation yet. No doubt those will be as inconclusive as all that have gone before.
The rest of the western worlds outrage at gunnut americans seems more of a typical high horse self congratulationary topic. Especially as no one bothers pointing out that the us homicide rate already went down by more than a third in the last 15ish years and that most of the rest of the developed world has quite a gap compared to the lowest homicide states ( Singapore and Japan)too. I very much doubt that means we should adopt their generally more autocratic policies, just to attempt bridge the 1 or 2 homicide per 100.000 difference.
If the extra dead per year really a motivating the discussion, im pretty sure there are lots of issues were its much easier to make a difference (teaching canadians and americans how to drive safely maybe:-).

[Swift]

You do not try and debate anyway Adanu. All you do is hop into threads to snipe at me.

More power to you, though, if that's all you can manage.

[Stormseeker]

I have looked at stats, when it comes to violent crime we are lower by far than most of the other major developed countries. And the majority of our gun violence is actually located in cities over a population of a 1/4 million. In fact most of them can be narrowed down to "narrow" areas.
I have said it before on here, i live in one of the most highest gun per person areas in the U.S.A.. We also have one of the highest population of veterans. But we have low crime rates. I have a house full of guns and i can't even remember where i put my house keys to lock it. I leave the keys in my cars no matter where i go.
My oldest girl (22) carries a 38 special and has the will and conviction to put it in a rapist stomach and pull the trigger until its empty.

Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.


Hmm owning guns is part of us, its what made us free, its what has kept us free, and it has kept many of your countries free too. Especially when us "boys come down out of the hills" with our long guns.

[Swift]

You mean the mighty US military that has failed to put down the Afghanistan insurgents in 10 years?

I actually jest on that one, as that is a failure of the entire western world, mainly because our governments never learned the lesson from Russias military when they tried and failed to win the country through strength of arms and failed utterly. War was never going to win in that country.

I am an ardent supporter of the US-Australia alliance, including the military power that it can bring should we ever need it, but that is an entirely different basket to personal gun ownership and civil gun violence.

Edit: Also I am not entirely sure that is correct Storm. I will have to check the UN figures when I get home, but IIRC the US is closer to the top than bottom for violent crime per capita.