Oz, Land of the Free and Home of the...

[Ronan]

Seems like the scientific community largely believes the Australian gun laws of '96 did not affect levels of violence:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politi ... _Australia

Most of those cited studies focus on the rate of suicide by firearm rather than the overall picture of crime in Australia in relation to the 1995 gun reforms.

Yeah, which I thought was odd? If someone really wants to kill themselves, not having access to a gun is probably not going to stop them. Anyway there are a few studies of violent crime cited, though I'd be interested in reading more if anyone has links.

[Rumple C]

And if you ban automatic weapons, criminal types will just get them on the black market.

Your desire to regulate guns only helps those who will use them for black intent.

By making them harder to obtain?

Pretty much any nutjob can go to a gun-show right now and buy whatever he fancies without any checks, yeah? Craziness.

[Swift]

Seems like the scientific community largely believes the Australian gun laws of '96 did not affect levels of violence:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politi ... _Australia

Most of those cited studies focus on the rate of suicide by firearm rather than the overall picture of crime in Australia in relation to the 1995 gun reforms.

Yeah, which I thought was odd? If someone really wants to kill themselves, not having access to a gun is probably not going to stop them. Anyway there are a few studies of violent crime cited, though I'd be interested in reading more if anyone has links.

If they really want to kill themselves, there is not much anyone can do to stop them, but taking the quickest, easiest and pain free way away from people can surely only be a good thing.

[Stormseeker]

Here in arkansas its a requirement for you to get a hunters education class first before you can get a hunting license. Many rural schools make it a requirement to take the course, and many businesses wont sell ammo to younger people without seeing a hunting license or safety course card. There is a trend among private owners and sellers of guns NOT to sell to others a) they are known by someone else and are deemed ok or b) are willing to do a federal firearm transfer.

I am all for training and classes, in fact one of the requirements to get a concealed carry permit here is taking a class, where also a instructor see's you load and shoot a gun with a pass or fail. After that it's a lot of paperwork, then your county sheriff must also approve you before it's sent off to the state for them to approve.

[Ronan]

Pretty much any nutjob can go to a gun-show right now and buy whatever he fancies without any checks, yeah? Craziness.

I am not a gun guy and have never been to a show, but from what I have been told obtaining automatic weapons is difficult. I only personally know one person with such a license. I used to know two, but one was convicted of a DUI or something and had his taken away. You cannot purchase automatic weapons at gun shows, though you may be able to purchase semi-automatic versions of such weapons?

I do think it is silliness to regulate something in such a way that only affects innocents. Banning guns from college campuses in order to prevent mass killings is a good example. This in no way prevents mass-killings, because anyone who wants to go on a rampage-suicide can get his arsenal off-campus and simply walk on-campus with it. On a graph of violence of over gun availability, there is probably a local maxima at "criminals can get guns fairly easily, but innocents cannot" and a local minima at "everyone is packing heat". I'd also bet the global minima is at "no one has any guns at all, ever", but that is not the sort of environment we'll have in the US for the foreseeable future.

I recommend this book for people interested in this stuff.

[Castano]

all this black market stuff is an NRA red herring. the reason criminals can buy guns on the black market so easily (where they largely have to due to background checks) is because there is already a very large supply of privately owned guns (310 million in the USA) which were originally bought on the regulated market. All of those "illegal" guns were legal at one time when they left the factory and arrived at the gun shop. you have to regulate this stuff at the factory door, not after it's out loose int he general marketplace, but it is too late for that. An easy solution is to treat guns like we do cars, "driver" test license to use them, title to own one, complete with VIN #'s, title transfer to sell one and renewals to keep track of where the gun user is and whether are still clean (e.g. not convicted or mental) to own one.

[Adanu]

And if you ban automatic weapons, criminal types will just get them on the black market.

Your desire to regulate guns only helps those who will use them for black intent.

By making them harder to obtain?

Pretty much any nutjob can go to a gun-show right now and buy whatever he fancies without any checks, yeah? Craziness.

They won't be harder to obtain; if someone wants an illegal weapon, the will just go to the black market of their country. Pretending that legality is something crimnals care about is foolish at best. If gunman want a gun, outlawing that gun won't do a damn thing.

all this black market stuff is an NRA red herring. the reason criminals can buy guns on the black market so easily (where they largely have to due to background checks) is because there is already a very large supply of privately owned guns (310 million in the USA) which were originally bought on the regulated market. All of those "illegal" guns were legal at one time when they left the factory and arrived at the gun shop. you have to regulate this stuff at the factory door, not after it's out loose int he general marketplace, but it is too late for that. An easy solution is to treat guns like we do cars, "driver" test license to use them, title to own one, complete with VIN #'s, title transfer to sell one and renewals to keep track of where the gun user is and whether are still clean (e.g. not convicted or mental) to own one.

I can agree to the idea that if you use your firearm for anything but home defense and shooting ranges, you should be required to have a license for it.

[Rumple C]

And if you ban automatic weapons, criminal types will just get them on the black market.

Your desire to regulate guns only helps those who will use them for black intent.

By making them harder to obtain?

Pretty much any nutjob can go to a gun-show right now and buy whatever he fancies without any checks, yeah? Craziness.

They won't be harder to obtain; if someone wants an illegal weapon, the will just go to the black market of their country. Pretending that legality is something crimnals care about is foolish at best. If gunman want a gun, outlawing that gun won't do a damn thing.

Having to go to "the black market" is a lot tougher than over the counter (or more likely over the table at a gun show). Imagine a situation where i (Joe America) am having a bad day. I decide i wish to pop holes in my boss and all my co-workers. Scenario A I can head down to the convention center and get myself a shiny new gun during my lunch break and 5000 rounds. Scenario B I have to drive through the "bad part of town" asking shady look people if they know where i can score a "piece".

Hopefuly under scenario B the disgruntled office worker decides to do what his mother would have advised - go home and have a sleep, you'll feel better in the morning.

Regardless, I am done with the discussion. I can see I am up against a certain culture. I expect it will be business as usual. I'll just sigh a little inside as the next massacre happens, and the next, and the next.

[Swift]

No need to wait Rumple. A teenager in new Mexico was just recently arrested for shooting dead his parents and 3 siblings.

How many people will die before restrictions start to be placed on firearms in the US?

Or is everyone content to live in a country knowing that someone is going to die every single day from gunshot wounds?

[Rumple C]

The thing is though, its a bit too late i think. The country is flooded with guns. Like Adanu alluded to, anyone who really wants one will get one. I think the difference though is that in our corner of the world we don't think the answer to guns is more guns.

At least put some common sense around how they can be obtained, without knee jerk reactions about "Not on my watch!".

[Adanu]

And if you ban automatic weapons, criminal types will just get them on the black market.

Your desire to regulate guns only helps those who will use them for black intent.

By making them harder to obtain?

Pretty much any nutjob can go to a gun-show right now and buy whatever he fancies without any checks, yeah? Craziness.

They won't be harder to obtain; if someone wants an illegal weapon, the will just go to the black market of their country. Pretending that legality is something crimnals care about is foolish at best. If gunman want a gun, outlawing that gun won't do a damn thing.

Having to go to "the black market" is a lot tougher than over the counter (or more likely over the table at a gun show). Imagine a situation where i (Joe America) am having a bad day. I decide i wish to pop holes in my boss and all my co-workers. Scenario A I can head down to the convention center and get myself a shiny new gun during my lunch break and 5000 rounds. Scenario B I have to drive through the "bad part of town" asking shady look people if they know where i can score a "piece".

Hopefuly under scenario B the disgruntled office worker decides to do what his mother would have advised - go home and have a sleep, you'll feel better in the morning.

Regardless, I am done with the discussion. I can see I am up against a certain culture. I expect it will be business as usual. I'll just sigh a little inside as the next massacre happens, and the next, and the next.

'The shooting massacres' are a whole other discussion. If you want to deal with those, don't look at gun control; look at gun licensing and mental health health care improvements. Guns aren't the problem there; people and their mental state are. Knee jerking over gun control doesn't help. It's a face value band-aid to a problems of a culture that encourages sociopaths.

[Swift]

Please tell me you realize that gun licensing IS a form of gun control.

[Stormseeker]

Ask your self what would make a teenage boy kill his whole family? He used a semi auto rifle, it could just well have been fire,knife,axe, or baseball bat while they slept.(all these has happend in the past here)
And as someone reminded me lately, this is not biggest mass shooting, doesn't even come close. Wounded Knee is, and that was done by my government. Go after the those with mental problems, start executing criminals like the Hanging Judge use too, but don't try to take away the weapons that insure another Wounded Knee or Trail of Tears doesn't come true.

[Stormseeker]

In the United States during 2009, 1,314 children ages 14 years and younger died as occupants in motor vehicle crashes, and approximately 179,000 were injured.

This is directly from the cdc website, so where is the outcry from the "anti-gun" crowd. Explain to me why we need auto's that will go over 100 mph when the average top speed limit is 30mph under that. Explain to me why its the law for everyone to be buckled up except for kids ridding on school buses. To get behind the wheel you just pass a written test and then take a car for a spin, my conceal weapon class was a 5hr ordeal. My drivers test including the written part was 45mins.
Part of what ticks us gun owners off is things like this. Don't cry about the poor children and then ignore the bigger killer.

[Swift]

To get behind the wheel you just pass a written test and then take a car for a spin, my conceal weapon class was a 5hr ordeal. My drivers test including the written part was 45mins. Part of what ticks us gun owners off is things like this. Don't cry about the poor children and then ignore the bigger killer.

Don't you think it is a bit of a strawman argument to compare statistics between something that is considered an essential tool of modern life to something that has a sole purpose of killing things? Do you honestly believe that every one of the 310 million guns in american homes has a genuine need to be there?

As an aside, if you want to cut down some of the road trauma? Wise up and reduce the legal blood alcohol limit across the board. 0.08 greatly increases impairment compared to 0.05 and over here there are many experts calling for the limit to be cut to 0.02 which would essentially rule out anyone from driving if they have alcohol, specifically because it is so dangerous to drive when under the influence. Drivers without a full licence must have 0.00 at all times otherwise its immediate loss of licence.

FWIW, it takes waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay longer to get a licence here in Australia. No matter which state you go to, you have to have a minimum of 100 hours of signed driving experience before they let you drive by yourself.

Ask your self what would make a teenage boy kill his whole family? He used a semi auto rifle, it could just well have been fire,knife,axe, or baseball bat while they slept.(all these has happend in the past here)
And as someone reminded me lately, this is not biggest mass shooting, doesn't even come close. Wounded Knee is, and that was done by my government. Go after the those with mental problems, start executing criminals like the Hanging Judge use too, but don't try to take away the weapons that insure another Wounded Knee or Trail of Tears doesn't come true.

Really? That is the defence? "Well, he could have killed them with other objects too, so its not guns that are the problem."

Guns make it easy to kill because that is their sole purpose. They were designed to kill and that is their purpose. Put a knife in any mass murderers hand and there is a far better chance that even an unarmed person can stop them. Put a gun in that murderers hand and they can stop anyone from getting near them in a heartbeat. You do not need the element of surprise to stop a stabbing, or a bashing with a bat but you absolutely need the element of surprise to stop a gunman even if you yourself have a gun.

The moment a murderer chooses a gun as their weapon of choice, their odds of being successful are far, far higher than if they choose a knife or a bat or a can of petrol and some matches. Gun control is as much about limiting the incidences of gun crime as road rules are to limiting carnage on the streets.