The Religion thread

Vaelahr · Post by **Vaelahr** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:42 pm

Faith doesn't have to be blind and can be both informed and rational.

What do you think of Jesus of Nazareth?

Set aside your experiences with so-called Christians who were anything but Christ-like to you. What do you think of Jesus? Was he a deciever? Insane? Or was he who he said he was? Would a deciever lie himself into crucifixion? Could a madman be such an honored teacher and prophet?

What of Christianity's birth and early growth amidst such violent opposition? How does one dismiss the empty tomb, or explain it away?

Nekulor · Post by **Nekulor** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:39 am

Vaelhar, you spoke exactly what this thread needed. Rational examples of Christ's life that are a little bit harder for the "Occam's Razor to debunk religion" crowd to tear apart.

Stormseeker · Post by **Stormseeker** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:40 pm

[/quote]Would a deciever lie himself into crucifixion? Could a madman be such an honored teacher and prophet?

Yes to both. History is full of them.

Vaelahr · Post by **Vaelahr** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:56 pm

Stormseeker wrote:
Would a deciever lie himself into crucifixion? Could a madman be such an honored teacher and prophet?
Yes to both. History is full of them.

What are a couple of historical examples and how are they like Christ?

How was Jesus of Nazareth insane to you? How was he a deciever? And to what end - what gain?

More importantly, how do you explain the empty tomb? Or the growth of early Christianity?

Nekulor · Post by **Nekulor** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:30 pm

No one else in history was like Christ. Name another who was so hated for being so kind and generous.

NickD · Post by **NickD** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:17 am

Nekulor wrote:No one else in history was like Christ. Name another who was so hated for being so kind and generous.

In 2000 years time, that's what they're going to be saying about George W Bush.

mxlm · Post by **mxlm** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:27 am

Could a madman be such an honored teacher and prophet?

What of Christianity's birth and early growth amidst such violent opposition?

Erm. You're using popularity as 'proof' of Jesus' holiness?

Mulu · Post by **Mulu** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:34 am

Vaelahr wrote:More importantly, how do you explain the empty tomb?

It's just a story....

Vaelahr · Post by **Vaelahr** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 1:57 pm

mxlm wrote:
Could a madman be such an honored teacher and prophet?

What of Christianity's birth and early growth amidst such violent opposition?
Erm. You're using popularity as 'proof' of Jesus' holiness?

In Mere Christianity, C.S. Lewis says, "A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic--on the level with a man who says he is a poached egg--or he would be the devil of hell. You must take your choice. Either this was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us."
Jesus could only have been one of four things: a legend, a liar, an insane person, or the divine Messiah - the Son of God. There is so much historical and archeological evidence to support his existence that every reputable historian agrees he was not just a legend. If he were a liar, why would he die for his claim, when he could easily have avoided such a cruel death with a few choice words? And, if he were insane, how could he have been such a good moral teacher? - How did he engage in intelligent debates with his opponents (the religious leaders of the time) or handle the stress of his betrayal and crucifixion while continuing to show a deep love for his antagonists? He said he was the Son of God. Evidence supports that claim.

Mulu wrote:
Vaelahr wrote:More importantly, how do you explain the empty tomb?
It's just a story....

Then what was the real story? What happened to his body? How do you explain the faith's wildfire growth in the three hundred years before Constantine?

Mulu · Post by **Mulu** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 2:33 pm

Vaelahr wrote:
It's just a story....
Then what was the real story? What happened to his body? How do you explain the faith's wildfire growth in the three hundred years before Constantine?

The real story is hard to determine, as accuracy in records that far back is difficult. Some historians say Jesus never existed at all, he is a total fabrication. Even if you assume he did exist, it would be simple enough for a small cult of followers to claim he rose from the dead, when in fact his body was buried in secret in the desert.

As for the moral value of Christianity, most of its morality is plagiarized from other religions. Also, remember that as soon as Christians gained a foothold, they started their own bloody persecutions that have lasted to this day. Just look at the Decree of Theophilus in 391, or the lynching of Hypatia in 415. And I doubt I really need to recount all the blood spilled in Christ's name after that. Given the actions of Christians over the millenia, in the name of Christ, I think it's safe to say that Christianity has no moral value.

As for it's popularity, there are many theories. The promise of a good afterlife is one of the more popular ones, since most other religions of the time had rather dreary views of the afterlife, especially the Roman religion. Remember, Christianity became popular in the Roman Empire, which then used *force* to spread it, a technique that continued until fairly recently. So, why is Christianity so popular? Because at various times in history in various places on Earth, if you didn't convert to Christianity you were slain. I wouldn't call taking 300 years to catch on in Roman culture as spreading like a "wildfire."

Nekulor · Post by **Nekulor** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:04 pm

Mulu, he was buried by the agents of the empire, according to everything I've seen. I don't think his followers ever got a chance to lay their hands on his body before he was arrested.

Mulu · Post by **Mulu** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:31 pm

Nekulor wrote:Mulu, he was buried by the agents of the empire, according to everything I've seen. I don't think his followers ever got a chance to lay their hands on his body before he was arrested.

Well, assuming he existed at all, the myth is that he was buried in a tomb and three days later the body was missing. Now, the myth is a supernatural explanation for a missing body, but really in three days don't you think some faithful follower who wanted the prophecy to come true couldn't just carry the body out and hide it in the desert?

The only Christian counterargument to the body not simply being taken runs like this:

Did the disciples steal the body? If so, then the men who delivered to the world the highest moral standards it has ever known were frauds, liars, and hypocrites. Is this credible to believe? Paul Little asks, "Are these men, who helped transform the moral structure of society, consummate liars or deluded madmen? These alternatives are harder to believe than the fact of the resurrection, and there is not a shred of evidence to support them.

Really, is it *harder* to believe that a bunch of zealot cultists stole the body of their dead leader than that it rose from the grave? I think the explanation is obvious. This explanation also has some rather huge straw men, as Christianity does not contain the world's highest moral standards. Christianity also didn't help transform the moral structure of society. In fact, the time when Christianity ruled Europe is known as the Dark Ages. It is responsible for the witchcraft trials, the crusades, etc.

And before you get into the "look at all the good Christianity has done," realize that Hamas brought hospitals and schools to the Palestinians. Does it make them moral? You have to look at the totality, and the totality includes the Inquisition, bombing abortion clinics, Jesus Camp and all the rest.

The evidence that the disciples stole the body of christ is its absence from the tomb.... No more evidence is needed to conclude that they were, "frauds, liars, and hypocrites," just like many christian leaders today. Seriously, if we were talking about *anybody else's* body, would you think it had risen to heaven or been stolen?

Grand Fromage · Post by **Grand Fromage** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:03 pm

Nekulor wrote:Mulu, he was buried by the agents of the empire, according to everything I've seen.

Romans did not bury victims of crucifixion, as it would've been counter-productive.

Activate Roman history 201!

The entire purpose of crucifying people instead of just stabbing them was to set an example to the population. Probably the most famous example of this was after Spartacus' rebellion. The slaves were crucified all along the Via Appia, the main road of Italy, spaced out equally so they covered a very large amount of the road outside of Rome--a hundred miles or so, I don't recall exactly off-hand. They were then left there until they rotted away, so everyone entering or exiting Rome saw what happened to the State's enemies. The implied threat to others was more important than the actual execution. This is also why executions were often held publically in the city's ampitheatre.

If we presume Jesus existed and was crucified (which is NOT at all universally accepted by historians, despite any claims to the contrary), he would've been put up in a high-traffic area of Jerusalem, and would have never been buried at all.

NickD · Post by **NickD** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:09 pm

However, I'm guessing they didn't guard the bodies, so it's entirely possible his worshippers took him down and put him in a tomb themselves.

And as an alternative answer to how his body disappeared... perhaps it didn't? Perhaps 5 years later people just started saying it did. Considering nobody knows where his tomb is supposed to be anymore, and it was a lot harder to get around back then, so people would be a lot less likely to check out the claims anyway, it's not a hard rumour to get going.

Grand Fromage · Post by **Grand Fromage** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:30 pm

NickD wrote:However, I'm guessing they didn't guard the bodies, so it's entirely possible his worshippers took him down and put him in a tomb themselves.

It depends on the victim. It's not at all impossible his followers would've taken his body, but Nekulor didn't claim that. He said he was buried by agents of the Roman state, which is utter bullshit.