I told him he should have taken Wizard levels

[dergon darkhelm]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8598134.stm

[zicada]

I hope sooner rather than later more people around the world will stop walking on eggshells around the obvious negative effect religion is having on our planet.

Its 2010 for crying out loud!

This sort of thing infuriates me to no end.

[Swift]

I hope sooner rather than later more people around the world will stop walking on eggshells around the obvious negative effect religion is having on our planet.

That'll only happen once the hundreds of millions of truely devout people realize that its a bit of a crock. Unfortunately, given how religion has played a part in things in the past, I have my doubts any of us will live to see the day.

Having been forced into religion for 10 years, I still fail to see how believing in a super natural being is the difference between someone living a good life or that same person being a crack smoking junkie.

[zicada]

I hope sooner rather than later more people around the world will stop walking on eggshells around the obvious negative effect religion is having on our planet.

That'll only happen once the hundreds of millions of truely devout people realize that its a bit of a crock. Unfortunately, given how religion has played a part in things in the past, I have my doubts any of us will live to see the day.

Having been forced into religion for 10 years, I still fail to see how believing in a super natural being is the difference between someone living a good life or that same person being a crack smoking junkie.

We can all do our part in trying to speed it up though, by spreading the word as it were (no pun intended). Too many people are simply used to believing it is NOT ok to question other peoples beliefs, no matter how twisted and irrational. That the religious beliefs of others are to be treated much differently than political or other non-religious beliefs. Being outspoken, and making people question why exactly that is, might play a decent role in doing something about this.

We don't generally treat people who believe the easter bunny is speaking to them and watching everything theyre doing, and knows everything they think like this,- more commonly they are admitted to an asylum for treatment. We don't normally hold a deep respect and back off when people claim they were abducted by aliens and have superpowers as a result, allowing them to directly speak to their former captors with their mind,- more often we laugh at them and shake our heads, because it is obvious to most of us that this sort of thing isn't real.

Some fairly liberal societies around the world, including my own, are starting to get to a point where there is no real difference here, but others, fairly large influential ones, are still, sadly, extremely passive and unconfrontational in this regard.

[Holy_Rage]

Zic, just because you believe that others are nuts, it doesn't mean they will stop believing that. They consider you a heathen pagan; you consider them nuts and worthy of asylums: where is the difference between you two? You won't have them and they won't have you. You are even.

Dogmas are called dogmas for a reason: it's up to people to embrace them or not. There is no way you can apply science to a dogmatic belief, and vice versa. You are comparing things that can't be compared. And pardon me, but a "fairly liberal and confrontational society" that would crusade vs dogmas is as futile as actually trying to proselytise others to that very dogmatic belief by the blade, the torch, the staking or the Evangelist Multiplex Channel.

[hollyfant]

You have to hand it to the Saudis, at least they're consistent. The laws they're applying to this poor sod are in the bible and torah too. Everyone who reads a horoscope, is going to hell. Your imaginary friend is very jealous of other imaginary help...

[zicada]

You are comparing things that can't be compared.

That's exactly the sort of thinking I'm talking about.

Why not ?

Why is that religion has some sort of exclusive right not to be compared, where all other issues do not ?

By your own logic, you are proposing anarchy where nobody will ever interfere to lessen suffering and help others, because who are we to think we are the ones who are "right" ?

I am simply saying that, truth based on scientific fact and 21st century logic and reason is superior in spreading equality and human well-being, and it is in fact immoral to stand by and not do anything to solve all the horrible things that happen around the world as a result of religious belief.

I'm fairly certain that the well-being of women for example, in cultures where the reigning religious ideals are such that women are systematically oppressed, is less than it would be if those religious beleifs were not around. Can anyone here truly disagree with this ?

But still you are saying since it is their right to believe whatever they want, nobody should have the audacity to interfere, or even speak up ?

[zicada]

You won't have them and they won't have you.

Let me clear that up if i was unclear before. I do want them, I just don't want the religion they were force-fed growing up. It's not their fault. If there was no religion around telling them it is prudent to murder your own daughter should she be raped, to end the shame, I'm 100% certain that thought would never enter their minds.

I hope everyone sees the difference.

[Holy_Rage]

Why is that religion has some sort of exclusive right not to be compared, where all other issues do not ?

In my opinion, you are mixing religious dogma, religious practice, religious laws and religious history, zic.

Simply put, of all those four, only the first is outside of rational thought. It's a dogma, people either believe in it or not. It's like food choices, if people are exposed to it from a young age, they will cling to it throughout their lives. If not, they will probably won't feel any sort of affiliation and become atheists. Or choose something else to believe in. Or reject it at adulthood.

The other three, however, can be put under rational thought and be subject to approval/criticism: and that's where ratio hominis can be applied. If my religion orders me to decapitate 7 virgins per day, this IS subject to human laws, trial and punishment, unless I live in a relevant theocracy. This is where you can indeed shake your head and say that the guy adhering to such a belief is a lunatic. But for every zicada that says that religion is for nutcases, there will be one zicada saying that religion saved his life, helps him trudge through life or makes him feel gloriously happy.

To my eyes, both of you are flipping the same coin, but are on the other side obviously. You will never convince him, he will never convince you. You will not go to jail, because nobody dictates to you to decapitate 7 virgins and most people. That's the approval you get from ratio hominis. He will go to jail because he killed 7 humans. You are happy because one more nutcase is away. He is happy because he is a martyr for his belief.

In my opinion, abusive religious practice consists of everything that violates the UN Human Rights chart. THAT, imho, is a noble goal: to try and end up all such abuses, from wherever they may come from. In that religion shouldn't be given any quarters, as would be the case with bloodthirsty tyrrants, immoral scientific practices etc. But eradicating religious belief per se is something that will never happen. People have been willing to die for that for centuries. For at least 1006 documented dogmas. It's futile to try and reason with such conviction. Because reason isn't applicable to dogmas.

[zicada]

Many good points there.

I'm not sure you can just split religion into pieces and approve of one and not the others,- it's a package, hence all the problems.

On the issue of "people will allways have religion"; I think this is only true because religious people have children, and feed their religion to their children growing up as you pointed out.

Children growing up in neutral homes where they are told they can believe in whatever they want almost never become religious out of their own free will when they grow up. Education, then, is the difference between 2000 years ago and today.

I think it is also immoral for children to be taught things that are blatantly untrue, especially when they are young enough to soak it up without having learned to think critically and come up with their own views. It is a form of child-abuse in my opinion, and definitely why religions persist around the world today in such high numbers. Obviously parents who do this are not aware they are doing anything wrong, this is part of the issue.

It is a tough nut to crack, i simply hope the rest of us will stop treating these issues like there's nothing that can ever be done, and stop treating it with a specialized kind of respect that is for the most part, entirely unwarranted when looking at the issue objectively and rationally.

[rorax]

I agree with Zicada here.


Everyone should be free to choose for --themselves-- .


If you want to believe there is a god , or in aliens or in plastic tits - it's fine, as long as you pick for yourself.

Once you start removing clitorises in the name of your religion and inflict suffering on others, someone should stop you and quickly.

If a girl is being raped by her brothers, then she is being accused of "seducing" them by 'clerics' then judged to be stoned to death...something is very very very wrong, it should not happen.



I've personally witnessed probably some of the worst and the most extreme examples of religious brainwashing myself, so i should probably stop here.

Extremism is bad, almost always...if it's plastic boobs or extreme religious devoutness.


Unless you're extremely filthy rich bastard that's good.

[johnlewismcleod]

Religion is a long standing and highly efficient means for propagating hate and separating people into "Us's" and "Them's"...I applaud any who are courageous enough to speak out against hate and it is a real shame the moderate and enlightened are cowed into silence by the extremists among us.

"Us's" and "Them's" is quite the useful tactic when competing for finite resources (it enables folk to feel good about themselves while they do other people wrong)...so I don't see this malaise ending anytime soon, unfortunately

[NickD]

Religion isn't the problem. People are the problem. People will always find an excuse to hate.

[zicada]

Religion isn't the problem. People are the problem. People will always find an excuse to hate.

Are you saying human beings are born evil ?

I find that directing anger at people directly is moot. You obviously didn't read the thread, nor do you seem to have given this the thought required.

What an extremely negative view of humanity

[Veilan]

Religion isn't the problem. People are the problem. People will always find an excuse to hate.

That's quite true. The problem is group thinking, and humans will always find an excuse to apply it. Be it nationality, ideology, or religion. While group thinking is a splendid tool to make us competitive (and compete), it can be rather destructive and counter-productive as well.

Solution: Aliens attack. Suddenly, we will all define ourselves as "human".