level Cap

[Dorn]

Racerblue:

I'm with Mulu here...level 9 cap is something I'd favor.I watched a level 14 player take out a ridiculous number of monsters not long ago..he never broke a sweat. +19 to hit..I mean, what is the point..I'll never lay down monsters for him to fight.

And I have seen a very high level PC get so close to death, from a feeble NPC.
That is not a valid argument. we play DnD. the game is balanced (with a DM, of course) till 20th. there is no point in setting the cap to a lower level, only because the DM cant handle such characters.

I agree. Drop a dragon. Then maybe this character will realise DnD is not about soloing.

[gribo]

heh, and it was not solo.

[Magonushi]

I don't like the idea of high level characters with little to no impact on the lore of the servers where they opperated. At the same time I hate level validation at the lower levels since so many seem to just blow it off anyway.

As Dorn suggested make high level validation more rigorous such as:

- The character must have made a server altering action at some point, one a HDM/DM records for evalution by the PA.

- The character must be a critical addition to the lore of an area such as a lord, lady, well-known name, a masterful puppetier controling the area from the shadows.

- In order to merit further leveling the character must perform some great heroic or anti-heroic for each level to signify his/her advancement within the character's chosen class(es)

- If validation is not posted for a level that the PC is seen with the PC will have their level lowered until a HDM can cough up the appropriate material.

- Server Rabbits, Players who "server hop," must still make signigicant impressions upon at least one server they frequent to merit high leveling.

Something along those lines may work to cancel out this fear of "characterless" characters showing up at level 12+ with little to show for all their advancement.

[fluffmonster]

You realize you guys are essentially talking about a validation quest for level 10? The PC having to do all these important things before moving on.

Overall, I don't feel too strongly one way or the other on that. Makes me wonder though if people would start to push for fundamentally different rules for 10+ PCs in general.

[Grand Fromage]

I would just like to point out that an inability to challenge a high level is not an inherent problem with high levels, but incompetance or inexperience on the part of the DM. Any character, of any level, with any equipment can be placed into a combat or non-combat situation that is challenging. It can be as simple as whipping out a higher CR enemy instead of an orc or as complex as a plot can be.

[Dorn]

You realize you guys are essentially talking about a validation quest for level 10? The PC having to do all these important things before moving on.

Overall, I don't feel too strongly one way or the other on that. Makes me wonder though if people would start to push for fundamentally different rules for 10+ PCs in general.

Nah thats not what i'm talking about. Doesn't really seem to work.

Reach level 10,
do a quest,
bugger off and do whatever.

Same as PrC quests:) level 10 and PrC quests are basically a cert and thats that....almost a reward as it gives specific attention to your storyline rather than a test.

I'm talking about seeing characters over level 10, 12, 15 or whatever playing as major figures in Faerun that they are...not just tuff adventurers looking for the next hit....unless thats exactly what their characters are and are made to be.

But druids, clerics, paladins, soldiers, rangers, Divine Champions etc etc etc...many of these have specific responsibilities they should be fullfilling. It says so in descriptions of what these classes are all about.

Not a one off quest, but they should be encouraged by DMs to RP as their class choices and character types dictate. Not a 'rule'...but something DMs should be encouraging.

Quests are quests, i'm talking about long term RP.

[Racerblue]

GF,

Well, I watched the the character in question take out a monster with nearly twice his HP's..not to mention the 7-8 other monsters who also participated. The battle was not close.

I will say, that some care had to be taken as there was one lower level pc traveling with this one..but all-in-all, this was not a challenging fight despite the CR of the monsters unleashed.

I understand that with PC's of this level, you need more specific encounters..in fact, I'm not sure why(it's very possible they do and I'm not aware of it) this PC doesn't have enemies who are equally as dangerous...but level 14 pc's who can take out stat tweaked dire(insert animal type) without taking wounds are much too difficult to deal with in any normal way..to me, it's just not "believable" to drop 25 orc champions on him..or a dragon..

So PC's with levels like this should be handled with special care and with specific enounters designed to challenge only them..

[Dorn]

it's just not "believable" to drop 25 orc champions on him..or a dragon..

Dungeons and DRAGONS is the game...it's always believable!!

[Grand Fromage]

GF,

Well, I watched the the character in question take out a monster with nearly twice his HP's..not to mention the 7-8 other monsters who also participated. The battle was not close.

I will say, that some care had to be taken as there was one lower level pc traveling with this one..but all-in-all, this was not a challenging fight despite the CR of the monsters unleashed.

I understand that with PC's of this level, you need more specific encounters..in fact, I'm not sure why(it's very possible they do and I'm not aware of it) this PC doesn't have enemies who are equally as dangerous...but level 14 pc's who can take out stat tweaked dire(insert animal type) without taking wounds are much too difficult to deal with in any normal way..to me, it's just not "believable" to drop 25 orc champions on him..or a dragon..

So PC's with levels like this should be handled with special care and with specific enounters designed to challenge only them..

I don't see your point. The DM who dropped this encounter you're talking about didn't know what he was doing, obviously. And yes, dropping 25 orc champions or a dragon where it makes no sense is wrong. That's not what I'm talking about.

First, challenge does not have to equal combat. If you're just giving combat challenges to a PC there's something wrong to begin with.

Moving on. Say you have a high level fighter. Sending some sort of powerful melee critter at him is likely to end up with the fighter kicking its ass without too much trouble. You don't do that. Fighters have crappy saves--you use a spellcaster or two. You don't have to whip out unbelievable creatures all the time, you just have to design an encounter to exploit the weaknesses of the PC if you want to provide a challenge.

You can reverse that with a mage. Even a powerful wizard is going to have problems with something at melee range. Every class has its weaknesses, it's the DM's job to figure out those and tailor appropriately. Just spamming lots of things with lots of HP is bad DMing, simple as that.

[Thangorn]

Dungeons and DRAGONS is the game...it's always believable!!

I agree with Dorn on the proviso that the dragons are properly made (3.0-3.5 MM compliant), their AI is up to scratch, properly tested and they are well rped. Dragons do hunt and like shiny, magical objects so they will certainly come looking for them. There are lots of Dragons is Faerun, only have to read a couple of novels for that.

Most Dragons will surely run if they know they will go down (most of them are geniuses after all) and would raise and army of minions to kill the protaganist and steal his phat lewt for the treasure pile.

Theres always the cult of teh Dragon if the Dragon does bite the big one.. Dracoliches = Faerun 4tw!! and they have heaps of pet powerful mages, warriors and rogues to boot..

[MShady]

I don't see your point. The DM who dropped this encounter you're talking about didn't know what he was doing, obviously. And yes, dropping 25 orc champions or a dragon where it makes no sense is wrong. That's not what I'm talking about.

First, challenge does not have to equal combat. If you're just giving combat challenges to a PC there's something wrong to begin with.

Moving on. Say you have a high level fighter. Sending some sort of powerful melee critter at him is likely to end up with the fighter kicking its ass without too much trouble. You don't do that. Fighters have crappy saves--you use a spellcaster or two. You don't have to whip out unbelievable creatures all the time, you just have to design an encounter to exploit the weaknesses of the PC if you want to provide a challenge.

You can reverse that with a mage. Even a powerful wizard is going to have problems with something at melee range. Every class has its weaknesses, it's the DM's job to figure out those and tailor appropriately. Just spamming lots of things with lots of HP is bad DMing, simple as that.

Pretty much exactly, GF. It takes more skill as a DM to challenge a high level PC. For those of you who think its not 'challenging' for a high level PC, thats just wrong if you play with the right DMs. GF is a master of it, and I've very, very, rarely done combat with him. Yet he's a very challenging DM. Wierd, huh? That the high level the player seen killed some stuff with higher HPs than them doesn't really say much. I'd generally expect that result if they're something weak enough you can drop 8 of them on someone. *shrugs*

All this talk about all this additional validation stuff people is kind of annoying and predicated on a foundation of disrespect and seeming assumption they're all powergamer with easy DMs or something with stunted RP abilities. It's no easier, and in many ways harder, than many low-mid levels experience. Nevermind it can take years to even get to that level. How many folks do you think would REALLY play the same PC for such an extended time if all they wanted to do hit every 1 xp spawn or didn't have a seriously developed character to the best of there abilities? Even if it isn't to the best of your abilties? *shrugs*

And despite all that, they're expected to justify there existence everytime they level or something? If a high level is not having an impact on a server, that is much more the fault of the DMs than the player. Stuff like what Dorn & such are suggesting is why alot of higher level players get fed up with the regular ALFA cavity searches and leave. I've considered it enough times when I've had people show up, demanding to know everything I've done, who I've been DMed by, who gave me what as part of some committee 'investigating' things. It just turns into some Star Chamber where you're in a blindfold while you're grilled, evaluated and judged by people you generally never played with or were DMed by.

Mike

[Ascendo]

Blablabla.. God you people can blabber on about nothing..

If you think level 10+ is overpowered, retire your char when you get to level 10, or never level up again. You have the choice.

If you don't like (or are unqualified to) DMing someone over level 10, don't. You have the choice.

Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean others shouldn't be allowed to have fun with it. Its like saying "I dont like fish, that means you can't eat fish either, EVAR!!11"

I can't see it as being more uncomplicated than that.

[MShady]

Wow, someone with there head screwed on straight...

Mike

[Audark]

Daggerford has a one level per month limit, and yes other limits for leveling can be kicked around, but for my character that has provided alot of time for me to think about my actions, and where i want to take my character.

I don't like the idea of a level cap below 20, maybe its not pure RP focus, but I DO enjoy leveling, becomming stronger, gaining new spells, higher saves etc etc. Again its not the level thats the issue, its the player, and a cap hurts the entire community, good RPers and bad.

This isn't even mentioning game mechanics, that sees wizards only get really useful at higher levels, prestige classes that could not be achieved and other such XP based events that truly do impact a characters development and play.

[Swift]

maybe its not pure RP focus, but I DO enjoy leveling, becomming stronger, gaining new spells, higher saves etc etc. Again its not the level thats the issue, its the player, and a cap hurts the entire community, good RPers and bad.

Except for hardcore nazi RPers who spend all their time RPing in a tavern, everyone enjoys getting levels and abilities and spells etc etc. It is how we know we have advanced a plot or personal character developments.

Levels are great, but (theoretically) they dont come without good RP, and therefore that should still be the overwhelming focus.

If people just want the levels, they can go and play WoW or something, so i wouldnt be too worried about not having a 'pure RP focus' simply beacuse you like hearing the level up ding