Combat & PC armor class

[Ronan]

As a DM and builder, one of the more difficult things in challenging PCs in combat is dealing with NWN's jacked-up AC. The addition of a +1 from a tower shield, a few pluses from tumble and one or two from boots of dodge may seem trivial, but the result can be PCs only being hit on a 20, instead of a 17-20, for example. This promotes the "one-man army" approach where a higher level PC can litterally wade through armies of mobs that in PnP, would present a significant challenge.

So what ends up happening is builders jack up mobs in order to hit these inflated PCs. With only one server that may not be so bad, but some servers would rather stick to canon mobs, while others have no problem strengthening their monsters to match the PC's power. The result is huge variances in monster power from server to server, such as olde-time BG or DF compared to SD, for example.

I'd like to change this, increasing the weight of tower shields to their proper amount, setting boot AC to deflection, and if possible removing dodge AC from tumble as well. I'd also like to make amulets of natural armor much rarer (as they can only be crafted by druids or rangers per PnP rules).

Any objections?

[Fionn]

While I'd like to see it harder to get the "+5 kit", I'd urge we figure out how to make mobs smarter. Ranged touch, AoE, traps, mind spells, etc don't care about that Full Plate. Try watching the party hiding behind a "one-man army" under the influence of Confusion :twisted:

[PensivesWetness]

While I'd like to see it harder to get the "+5 kit", I'd urge we figure out how to make mobs smarter. Ranged touch, AoE, traps, mind spells, etc don't care about that Full Plate. Try watching the party hiding behind a "one-man army" under the influence of Confusion

but we don't exactluy have many one-man armies, let alone Million-Hin Marchs....

'sides, Millia only has like enough ranks for +1 to her AC (and it isn't always effective per rolls, i think?

[Overfilled Cup]

We do have a fresh start on how PCs are put together and how mobs are powered coming up in NwN2.

[Ronan]

While I'd like to see it harder to get the "+5 kit", I'd urge we figure out how to make mobs smarter. Ranged touch, AoE, traps, mind spells, etc don't care about that Full Plate. Try watching the party hiding behind a "one-man army" under the influence of Confusion

Even if they are as smart as they should be in PnP, canon monsters are balanced to PnP PCs, not NWN PCs. The FRCS was not writen for jacked-up NWN ACs.

And I was actually speaking more in terms of PCs coming into conflict with canon organizations, such as town guards, with few supernatural resources for the things you suggest. A bunch of War1s with a +4 AB are easily turned useless by a level 4 PC with full plate, a tower shield, and two +1 AC items (=24 AC). Thats leads to PCs being able to get away with more, which leads to DMs jacking up NPCs, etc. Thats not how FR was ment to be. The changes would be trivial to implement at the base-mod level.

Of course, I'm not saying this would, overall, make things any harder for PCs, or make ALFA any deadlier. Higher level PCs may have a bit harder of a time (from lower AC), and lower-level PCs may have things a bit easier (from less-powerfull canon mobs).

[AlmightyTDawg]

While I'd like to see it harder to get the "+5 kit", I'd urge we figure out how to make mobs smarter. Ranged touch, AoE, traps, mind spells, etc don't care about that Full Plate. Try watching the party hiding behind a "one-man army" under the influence of Confusion

As a basic rule of thumb for balance reasons, if you balance to the inane, you force the inane.

That's why you have zones and servers with "inflation" effects, because one needs ridiculous gear to handle what's thrown at them. Realistically though, what Fionn's actually talking about are "lotto" mobs. Which are mobs which if they pull off their uber combo or ability are almost unstoppable, but if they don't are daisies. Statistically, throw enough at a only partly-prepared PC and they're toast. This includes mobs with particular effects such as fear, confusion, death attacks, hold attacks, jacked sneak attacks, jacked poisons, x3 or x4 crit weapons or other such things. Personally I've not been a fan on those for static spawners, at least not a notable percentage of them.

In NWN2, presumably there's going to be "out of the gate" balances on the players. All of the things that Ronan mentioned are ones that we'll be talking about in Standards. Dodge AC on boots doesn't exist. Tower shields can be made to have a base weight of 40 - 45 lbs even if we can't manage the cover v attack penalty distinction. Don't know how it'd work to cover Tumble and Spellcraft bonuses. Don't know if we'll be able to correct Expertise and Improved Expertise to top out at BAB.

But bear in mind that all these things are artifacts of a single-player focused campaign. Where the individual and his henchman were expected to do it all. It's all about the AC > AB + 22 (flanking) distinction. Something I wrote in some reference materials but didn't publish...

<after talking about all the AC-inflationary effects, including no-penalty heavy armor and weak encumberance rules>

This of course is all done in the name of fun, as these rules significantly limit a lot of the grunt work and micromanagement out of the engine. The consequences for the game balance though can become significant. The rate of damage a character will sustain is a function of two variables – the damage rate (how much damage the monster does) and the hit rate. While doing more damage to the monster lessen’s one’s exposure to attacks (dead mobs swing no swords), the only control the PC has over the opponent’s damage rate is adamantine, powerful magic, orwhether or not they choose to fight. So obviously the focus is on increasing armor class. The “holy grail” for AC is to reach an AC that’s twenty points higher than your opponents’ attack bonus – then the hit rate has been minimized to hit-on-20-only, or 5%.

But even more subtle than that is how AC tends to be most valuable “at the top.” For example, say a +10 attack bonus monster attacks a 16 AC character. The monster hits 75% of the time (6 or better). If the character improves her AC by 5 points to 21 AC, the monster now hits 50% of the time, reducing the hit rate by 33%. But if the same monster attacks a 26 AC character, hitting 25% of the time, and that same character goes to 31 AC, the hit rate has been reduced by 80%! Same 5 points of AC, with drastically different results. This chart shows how just small improvements in AC make a difference as you near that difference of 20. Now, excluding flanking below, the following table shows how even the small improvements are huge when you're "at the top."

.....................................Mob Hit Rate decrease if AC improves by...
AC > AB by.........1..............2..............3..............4..............5..............6
........5..............6.3%......12.5%......18.8%......25.0%......31.3%......37.5%
........6..............6.7%......13.3%......20.0%......26.7%......33.3%......40.0%
........7..............7.1%......14.3%......21.4%......28.6%......35.7%......42.9%
........8..............7.7%......15.4%......23.1%......30.8%......38.5%......46.2%
........9..............8.3%......16.7%......25.0%......33.3%......41.7%......50.0%
........10............9.1%......18.2%......27.3%......36.4%......45.5%......54.5%
........11............10.0%....20.0%......30.0%......40.0%......50.0%......60.0%
........12............11.1%....22.2%......33.3%......44.4%......55.6%......66.7%
........13............12.5%....25.0%......37.5%......50.0%......62.5%......75.0%
........14............14.3%....28.6%......42.9%......57.1%......71.4%......85.7%
........15............16.7%....33.3%......50.0%......66.7%......83.3%......83.3%
........16............20.0%....40.0%......60.0%......80.0%......80.0%......80.0%
........17............25.0%....50.0%......75.0%......75.0%......75.0%......75.0%
........18............33.3%....66.7%......66.7%......66.7%......66.7%......66.7%
........19............50.0%....50.0%......50.0%......50.0%......50.0%......50.0%


What that means in practice is that a 33.3% decrease in hit rate means the character’s now being hit two times for every three they would normally be hit. That means they can survive 50% longer than before. A character that has a 85.7% decrease in hit rate will survive 600% longer than before. Since many monsters attack in the +5 to + 14 range, this means that AC that hits the high-20s and even low-30s can be exceedingly valuable.

Most importantly, every point of AC in that range makes a serious difference in how long a character can keep going, on top of making characters virtually immune to monsters with low attack bonuses.

By way of comparison to the DMG, the following are some unbuffed AC values for NPCs of a given class according to Chapter 4.

Class.....................Lvl5.........Lvl10.........Lvl15.........Lvl20
Barbarian...............18.............20.............24.............29
Bard.......................15............15.............19.............23
Cleric......................19............22.............24............26
Druid......................17............21.............23.............28
Fighter...................21.............24.............28.............34
Monk......................16............20.............25.............34
Paladin...................19............22.............26.............30
Ranger...................17............18.............23.............25
Rogue....................17............19.............22.............26
Sorcerer.................13............15.............19.............22
Wizard...................13............15.............20.............23

Now these are values for NPCs, and not PCs, but even generously (given the wealth standards), at best a PC should be comparable to an NPC about 3-4 levels higher. It is pretty well confirmed by the ACs of major NPCs out of the FRCS. That of course does make some comment as to how encounter levels are balanced in our format – a 15th level barbarian is supposed to be an EL 15 encounter. Essentially by definition you know we have it wrong because a book EL 15 isn't challenging to an ALFA PC many levels lower, excepting maybe spellcasters whose danger is more from magic than gear (but who themselves are compromised by low visual ranges and unrealistic spell loadouts).

[fluffmonster]

what is necessary is clamping down on AC items...or even magic in particular. According to various valuations, AC bonuses are given less weight than say equivalent bonuses to weapons...that sort of marginal cheapening adds to the problem of overabundance of gear.

The point is that there is simply a need to really hold back on the gear that's over +2, or even +1, particularly for AC. The real question becomes, how are we gonna hold back on the gear? How are we gonna keep PCs from having those really high ACs?

[Ronan]

Browsing through the FRCS and looking at ACs of powerfull NPCs:
Elminster: 29
Hadrhune: 25 (shade, right hand of Telamont)
Alusair Obarskyr: 28
Caladnei: 20 (head of the War Wizards of Cormyr)
Jezz the Lame: 24
Storm Silverhand: 28
Artemis Entreri: 22
Fzoul: 23
Klauth: 46
Obould Many-Arrows: 17
Drizzt: 23
Halaster: 19
Elaith Craulnober: 18
The Simbul: 26
Szas Tam: 29

[AlmightyTDawg]

what is necessary is clamping down on AC items...or even magic in particular. According to various valuations, AC bonuses are given less weight than say equivalent bonuses to weapons...that sort of marginal cheapening adds to the problem of overabundance of gear.

The point is that there is simply a need to really hold back on the gear that's over +2, or even +1, particularly for AC. The real question becomes, how are we gonna hold back on the gear? How are we gonna keep PCs from having those really high ACs?

Work through the math on the DM award table. Even people awarding at the bleeding edge typically won't get loads of +2 armor items on a PC till 10th - 12th level. Bear in mind that only armor and shields are "cheap;" deflection and natural work out at the same price mod as weapons.

Cutting down on tower shield usage and dodge AC on boots is a start. If we could clip Tumble and Expertise, that'd be a big boost. Anything that's done movement wise to make heavy armor undesireable will also help a bit.

We could probably also stand to cap out our static merchants to avoid +3 gear, despite what Arms and Equipment Guide says.

[Ronan]

what is necessary is clamping down on AC items...or even magic in particular. According to various valuations, AC bonuses are given less weight than say equivalent bonuses to weapons...that sort of marginal cheapening adds to the problem of overabundance of gear.

The point is that there is simply a need to really hold back on the gear that's over +2, or even +1, particularly for AC. The real question becomes, how are we gonna hold back on the gear? How are we gonna keep PCs from having those really high ACs?

Well, removing dodge AC from boots and adding disadvantages to tower shields and plate mail would go a long way. Then I think you make amulets of natural armor more rare, and you've basically got it. Most armored PCs aren't too far off from this,
Class.....................Lvl5.........Lvl10.........Lvl15.........Lvl20
Fighter...................21.............24.............28.............34

One problem is D&D's silly system of AC vs. AB, where AB grows with level, but AC does not. So I don't think we should jack up the costs on magic AC necissarily, since its more or less required.

[Overfilled Cup]

amulets of natural armor more rare

Then you get the problem of the haves and have nots. Favoritism and all its ugly sidenotes.

[Ronan]

amulets of natural armor more rare

Then you get the problem of the haves and have nots. Favoritism and all its ugly sidenotes.

Well, we could just jack the price up on them. They are only craftable by druids or rangers, which are pretty rare classes to be making magic items for sale.

[Inaubryn]

Then we need to bitch slap the DMs who keep handin' this shite out. That's where the problem stems from. Now we have to take post-open barn door measures to try and resolve some of this. Most fighter PCs that are lvl 4-8 have ACs that are between 23 and 30. That's just stuuupid. So you guys sound like you're on the right track. Once we get this part figured out we need to school our DMs, or beat the hell outta o' them. One or the other.

[Overfilled Cup]

Certain NPC groups would find certain items more available and to an extent more IC. Say for instance. the harpers. I could envision them having lots of ammies of natural armor. Thieves Guild Dodge and Tumble items..

I dont see it as OOC to find those PCs having those items. But should a harper have FP+2 along with his ammie..probly not..Alot of this has to do with how IC players play there PCs.

[Ronan]

Inaubryn,

I think this is another example of DMs being more familiar with NWN than PnP FR. That sort of thing is expected in NWN, and many don't realize the difference.

Thieves Guild Dodge and Tumble items..

There are no dodge items in PnP (for a reason).