xp for rogues

Mulu · Post by **Mulu** » Sun May 07, 2006 4:58 pm

I've played a few SP rogue mods, and they all tend to have one thing in common, besides being really cool to play, they all award xp for picking locks and disarming/removing traps.

In ALFA, you fight a monster, you take a risk, you get 20 xp and maybe 5gp worth of loot drop. At that rate, you can get 1000 gp after taking a lot of risks, and you earn 4000 xp in the process.

But, if you're a rogue, you wait until dark, you scout out a location, you wait until the guard patrol has passed and no one is looking, you pick a lock, taking a risk of discovery, you enter a building that's occupied, maybe with guard dogs, you sneak past them, taking a risk of discovery and attaack, you pick another lock, you disarm a trap, you get 10 - 100 gp worth of loot, you sneak back out, you hope the guard isn't waiting for you on the other side of the door. At that rate, you can get 1000 gp after taking a lot of risks, but you earn ZERO xp (even if a DM is online, typically. RP xp seems to only be for chat).

This is a big part of why my PC is still only 5th level after 15 months. That and low play frequency. I don't go hunting down monsters and animals, gaining xp and gp, I mostly just rp (usually 0 xp) and be a thief (0 xp, but lots of money). Now, I'm not bemoaning the level, I actually prefer low level play. But I am certain that at the time my PC got wiped, she was way over wealth limits. ALFA is based on xp and gp being gained simultaneously for wealth limits, but for rogues they rarely get any xp while they are getting gp, so it's easy to get unbalanced.

So, I propose that for NWN2, we have locks and traps coded to give some xp. After all, you can get caught picking that lock, and traps can blow up in your face, so there is risk. This makes so much sense, I'm sure it's going to spawn much vitriol from the old timers.

Mulu · Post by **Mulu** » Sun May 07, 2006 5:06 pm

I suppose I should take on some arguments in advance...

"But you can just pg it."
- You can pg combat too. Should we eliminate all combat xp? Hmm, maybe we should.

"There's no risk."
- Try doing it. It makes your heart race a lot faster than killing some poor orc or wolf for the fiftieth time. My PC has never been caught, not even by a dog, but it's not because you can't get caught.

Well, I'll wait for the rest to be posted.

Mayhem · Post by **Mayhem** » Sun May 07, 2006 5:22 pm

Mulu wrote:I suppose I should take on some arguments in advance...

"But you can just pg it."
- You can pg combat too. Should we eliminate all combat xp? Hmm, maybe we should.

Maybe we should. Random monster kills and random trap/lock removal, random bribery of guards - no XP.

Monster kills, lock picking, bribery of guards etc etc etc in the course of some greater goal - an adventure, so to speak - Lots of XP.

The XP should be awarded for the succesful completion of a static, not for the killing of teh monsters associated with that static, so that a rogue or ranger who, entirely in character, uses his skills to avoid the fight entirely gets just as much XP for completing it as the tanks that walked through killing everything in his path.

Get people going adventuring instead of loot hunting.

Mulu · Post by **Mulu** » Sun May 07, 2006 10:12 pm

Well, ideally I suppose you'd have class proper statics for all classes, and there would no xp available except from DM's and appropriate statics. But that would take a lot of work. You're talking about statics specifically designed for rogue / cleric / paladin / bard / fighter / ranger, etc. It'd be a great thing, but I can't even imagine how much work it would take.

Simpler to just add xp for locks and traps.

NickD · Post by **NickD** » Sun May 07, 2006 10:15 pm

With Dim Rets. And delays between XP awards. Otherwise you can easily get situations of "pick lock" "lock lock" "pick lock" "lock lock" etc until the character hits next level, whereas monsters tend to disappear for a while after they get killed...

fluffmonster · Post by **fluffmonster** » Sun May 07, 2006 10:31 pm

actually, its precisely the risk factor that should be considered here.

the whole premise behind risk/reward is that you get the reward if you succeed, but you get the "punishment" if you fail. So, if you try to pick a lock, what's the consequence of failure? There really isn't any, so its hard to say it should be much if any XP.

What would be better would be for the xp/wealth to be solely associated with the prize. So, you have to not only pick the lock, you also have to sneak past the guards, diable both traps, find the safe, and then open it before you see any reward. The point is that because its necessary to see the risk in terms of the whole operation and not just one part of it, its also necessary to associate the reward with the whole operation.

borgia · Post by **borgia** » Sun May 07, 2006 11:13 pm

Easy, just set the chest to have an on open reward script, which makes an assumption that the pc has bypassed the obstacles. And make it check a variable, or level so it can be done only once.

borgia

Mulu · Post by **Mulu** » Mon May 08, 2006 12:18 am

borgia wrote:Easy, just set the chest to have an on open reward script, which makes an assumption that the pc has bypassed the obstacles. And make it check a variable, or level so it can be done only once.

borgia

Bingo. And then you can set the xp based on the difficulty of getting to the chest, and the level of the PC.

Though I will point out that the punishment of failure to pick the lock is you don't get the loot, and you might get seen, which could lead to attack or arrest.

The punishment of losing a fight is *usually* running away and resting to heal.

Dorn · Post by **Dorn** » Mon May 08, 2006 12:55 am

I assume the fighters and mages and clerics in party also benefit from this exp? It is generally tyhem that got the thief to the place where he can access the chest.

Also i agree with Nicks point above.

There are Dim Rets and rules about killing spawns that are very focussed on fighter types not 'PGing'. These rewards for rogues shoudl be similarly limited.

Also i've known some VERY rich (as in goodbye wealth standards) rogues from just hanging out and pick pocketting/thieving. With DimRets a fighter could keep hitting spawns for now exp gain but wealth increase. The fighter would get barrelled by the HDM for farming however....even thogh fighting is what a fighter does. Would a thief get barrelled for constantly pick pocketing/thieving?

Fionn · Post by **Fionn** » Mon May 08, 2006 1:24 am

We had one mod that awarded XP for locks. Guards/commoners would agro if they saw you. Sadly, it is no longer in ALFA. As long as you set some sort of DimRet and CR into the system Mulu, I'd love to see it.

Mulu · Post by **Mulu** » Mon May 08, 2006 1:36 am

Dorn wrote:I assume the fighters and mages and clerics in party also benefit from this exp? It is generally tyhem that got the thief to the place where he can access the chest.

Actually, that kind of behavior is generally done alone.

fluffmonster · Post by **fluffmonster** » Mon May 08, 2006 1:43 am

Mulu wrote:
Dorn wrote:I assume the fighters and mages and clerics in party also benefit from this exp? It is generally tyhem that got the thief to the place where he can access the chest.
Actually, that kind of behavior is generally done alone.

Aye. its one thing to play scout and trapspringer for the party. Its quite another to do some B&E.

Mulu · Post by **Mulu** » Mon May 08, 2006 1:58 am

Fionn wrote:As long as you set some sort of DimRet and CR into the system Mulu, I'd love to see it.

How about this for easy? Set the xp to scale based on the difference between skill and difficulty, so if the picking the lock is close you get some xp, but if it's more than say 10 pts below your skill, you get none. 1 or 2pts xp per point from 10 below to parity. As you level, that range of locks with xp granting DC's will move and many locks will become zero xp, as a function of improving skill.

Same for traps, disable and remove, but no xp for identify. So dim ret becomes a function of going up in level, getting better skills, and taking on more challenging traps/locks, similar to fighting monsters, with lower level traps/locks giving no xp. It does have a "1 level of rogue" loophole, so maybe it would have to also have dim ret per success for each DC of lock/trap.

Bungle a lock or trap, and have it make a *noise* that attracts anyone nearby. I'd be careful with aggro though, since it shouldn't be a death sentance to try to pick a lock, and commoners going aggro will just end up with them being killed, and causing faction issues. Maybe cause NPC's to shout at the PC, "Hey, a thief!" with a flag or something set on the PC to indicate they were seen. Hostile guards could even fight to knock out, and take the PC to a jail cell.

Not being a coder I don't know what's easiest or most feasible.

borgia · Post by **borgia** » Mon May 08, 2006 5:46 am

The Alfa Justice System, coded by Kensai did most, if not all of this. Very clever, but hard to implement, and ever harder to un-implement....

borgia

fluffmonster · Post by **fluffmonster** » Mon May 08, 2006 5:59 am

Mulu wrote:
Fionn wrote:As long as you set some sort of DimRet and CR into the system Mulu, I'd love to see it.
How about this for easy? Set the xp to scale based on the difference between skill and difficulty, so if the picking the lock is close you get some xp, but if it's more than say 10 pts below your skill, you get none. 1 or 2pts xp per point from 10 below to parity. As you level, that range of locks with xp granting DC's will move and many locks will become zero xp, as a function of improving skill.

Same for traps, disable and remove, but no xp for identify. So dim ret becomes a function of going up in level, getting better skills, and taking on more challenging traps/locks, similar to fighting monsters, with lower level traps/locks giving no xp. It does have a "1 level of rogue" loophole, so maybe it would have to also have dim ret per success for each DC of lock/trap.

Bungle a lock or trap, and have it make a *noise* that attracts anyone nearby. I'd be careful with aggro though, since it shouldn't be a death sentance to try to pick a lock, and commoners going aggro will just end up with them being killed, and causing faction issues. Maybe cause NPC's to shout at the PC, "Hey, a thief!" with a flag or something set on the PC to indicate they were seen. Hostile guards could even fight to knock out, and take the PC to a jail cell.

Not being a coder I don't know what's easiest or most feasible.

This is too ambitious. Development of something like this should start with something more basic that can be built up over time. Put the xp on the loot that you only get after you've overcome all the challenges to get it. As specific elements are refined over time, then mebbe can add xp to individual acts as the risk factors get built into those. The first thing that would be a must-have to do rewards for individual acts would be actual rolls for skill checks, or a time committment from taking 10 or 20.

And I don't buy simple failure as a risk. "Risk" means specifically a chance of losing resources...wealth, consumables, hp, the typical stuff, or even RP consequences if that can be managed. Just not being able to pick the lock is not in any of those categories.