Experience for random-monster hunters

Mayhem · Post by **Mayhem** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:31 pm

The fundemental point that I am trying to make here:

If we give XP for killing mobs, we, as a community, will be saying "We value combat based characters more in our PW than social based ones or stealth based ones, or in fact any other concept that doesn't revolve around killing things efficiently".

Given the high standard of roleplay we like to bandy about as the thing that makes us different to other NWN server, is that really an appropriate message?

Fionn · Post by **Fionn** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:54 pm

I have to disagree. I value creativity, ingenuity, and humor. Were I running a tabletop campaign, players that exhibit those traits would certainly get a bonus for overcoming challenges. That is not to say that they'd get XP for sitting in a bar wooing the waitress while the rest of the party slew the Dragon that was ravaging the town.

All that aside, I can't code to detect creativity, ingenuity, and humor. I can certainly write a few quests that take into account specific examples of those traits, but I cannot anticipate every possible method to complete the quest. Even then, I can come up with dozens of statics anyone could do (conceivably) in the time it takes me to write a single static for a Gnome Bard that knows a lot about birds.

So, no, by awarding for challenges, we are simply holding to DnD. By awarding for killing those challenges, we are simply working within the confines of the engine and our resources. Give me a half dozen full time quest writers (per module) and we can certainly cater to creative RP for any (reasonably) conceivable PC.

Mayhem · Post by **Mayhem** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:07 pm

I agree totally that there are limits to what the engine/scripting can do, and thats why we cannot cover every eventuality.

As I said, though, we have 2 alternatives.

Unless we want to tell players that they are better off playing a combat based PC:

1) We can make sure the non-combat monsters get the same chances for XP.

2) We can take away the awards that only the combat monsters can get.

If stealth types, trader types, social types, pacifist types are expected to be content with DM xp only, why do we not simply apply the same to combat types?

We bang on about how much we like to reward RP, and how RP is so important to ALFA, how we frown upon characters whose whole reason d'etre is slaughter. Its a huge part of the application process.

And then when we put it into practice, the message is "Play a tank, get more XP"

We talk the talk, and then fail abysmally at walking the walk.

Fionn · Post by **Fionn** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:01 am

Your argument seems to imply that XP is the only reward AFLA can give out. If I wanted to whack moles to get loot to get gold to buy better gear to whack bigger moles.... I'd be playing WoW or Guild Wars.

I find RP rewarding. I also like problem solving and critical thinking. I'd love to be able to use spells with the finesse that PnP allows (where the right single 2nd level spell can radically alter a CR8 encounter). Personally, I see no reason why anybody would ever play a HOrc or Dwarf.

There are those that think differently, and ALFA is a huge game. While I'd certainly expect DMs to run intelligent plots, and I demand that those around me stay IC, I'm not going to tell some 20 year old kid he can't slay Giants because it gets in the way of the story the DM's running.

RP XP should be a bonus, not the sole source of XP. What we're trying to do with all this talk of caps, dimret, etc is prevent *abusive* use of mob XP to powerlevel your toon. At the heart of it, DnD is about problem solving and risk analysis

My current PnP DM wrote:Nothing ventured, nothing gained
evolution's cruelest joke

ç i p h é r · Post by **ç i p h é r** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:08 am

Not earning XP for overcoming a combat challenge using a non-combat tactic isn't an indictment of ALFA. It's a failing of the medium - NWN. You can't pin this on role play.

I agree that mobs are the fodder for combat oriented PCs, but that's just one aspect of the game. And yes, if we designed our PW entirely around killing as the sole means to earning XP, combat is all that we'd get. So we won't.

White Warlock · Post by **White Warlock** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:40 am

In a perfect world...

Unfortunately, this is a 'persistent' world.

Stormseeker · Post by **Stormseeker** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:13 am

Well seems that your thinking is off a bit. Sure if a combat solo's a orc he has a better chance of surviving and getting the xp. But soloing in alfa is death and most people go after the orc in a party. Therefore everyone is the party regardless of class gets the xp. Dnd has always been based on party play.
I am all for class or skill specific statics, but there is a difference between defeating the orc and bypassing the orc.

yavanion · Post by **yavanion** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:27 am

Alot of good things said here... And as some pointed at, no one wants to remove Xps for killing, simply that equal time spent "hunting/killing" monster or doing non-combat things should yield an equal amount of Xps...

One of the simplest ways of rewarding xps for non-combat is through a crafting, gathering natural resources system... this howewer has the possibility to ruin the economics of Alfa... But this can be solved with that crafted things can only be sold between characters, or through DM run little events, example dagger ford militia wants 20 long swords made, who ewer can make them for fairest price gets the contract etc...

Personally i think this would work both ways, and save alfas economy
/yav

Mayhem · Post by **Mayhem** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:05 am

Stormseeker wrote: I am all for class or skill specific statics, but there is a difference between defeating the orc and bypassing the orc.

Not according to the DMG.

Veilan · Post by **Veilan** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:48 pm

ALFA has xp for mobs now?

Khazar Stoneblood · Post by **Khazar Stoneblood** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:00 pm

yavanion wrote:
One of the simplest ways of rewarding xps for non-combat is through a crafting, gathering natural resources system... this howewer has the possibility to ruin the economics of Alfa... But this can be solved with that crafted things can only be sold between characters, or through DM run little events, example dagger ford militia wants 20 long swords made, who ewer can make them for fairest price gets the contract etc...

The key with this is have those non-combat XP sources be dependent on abilities or skills that not all PC's have. Otherwise the focus is still on combat PC's as I can get Combat XP AND non-combat XP.

But if the non-combat XP requires spellcraft... or a spell... or the perform skill.... or disarming a trap/opening a lock.... or sneaking... or the search skill....

well then it fosters a more balanced environment.

If it's just taking item from point a to point b or picking up crafting items from the wilderness, the "best" build will still be a combat build, because they can do that too... and safer since they'll be better able to survive a chance wilderness encounter.

Khazar Stoneblood · Post by **Khazar Stoneblood** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:02 pm

Mayhem wrote:
Stormseeker wrote: I am all for class or skill specific statics, but there is a difference between defeating the orc and bypassing the orc.
Not according to the DMG.

Well... to clarify.

If the challenge presented is to defeat the orc (say because he's terrorizing the community) then Stormseeker would be correct. If the challenge is to rescue a child from the orc, or make it from point A to point B with the Orce in the middle... then there should be no XP difference from killing the orc or sneaking by to save the child/reach point B.

And of course we could never easily script that difference for a random encounter.

psycho_leo · Post by **psycho_leo** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:07 pm

The most xp i got from a fight was like 50 and it was a nasty nasty fight that almost ended up in TPK. We had 3 PCs (two lvl 8 and one lvl 7) and two of them (including mine) had cleric lvls. I used all my spells and most of my potions and item abilities to get out alive. So I don't see why all this concern of combat XP. 50 xp for a lvl 7 PC is not something to go nuts over.

Lusipher · Post by **Lusipher** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:39 pm

ALFA has xp for mobs now?

No, your so Uber now you just get candy from them when they die

Mulu · Post by **Mulu** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:40 pm

I do recall an in game OOC comment from another player that the most xp he ever got in ALFA was from killing a dire bear (400 or so). Those clerics and their buffs....

A lot of these issues were discussed at length in the Rp for Rogues thread, though I have to take back all my comments in that thread about the wealth guidelines as I understand them better now. Wealth guidelines only apply to combat useable wealth, so a wealthy but low level PC can simply buy a house or whatever and still be within guidelines.

Non-combat xp is hard to implement in statics. It basically boils down to the work required. Zeroing out combat xp would definitely be a strong statement, but ultimately the statement would be inconsistent in regards to ALFA being a roleplaying world. After all, combat is a form of rp too, especially for a fighter type.