Sicko

MorbidKate · Post by **MorbidKate** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:33 am

Anyone seen it yet since it was leaked onto the Net? I grabbed it off a bittorrent site this evening and must say it's depressing but worth seeing.

Kate

Nekulor · Post by **Nekulor** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:47 am

Kate, the only problem with it is it fails to highlight the problem in the systems he uses as models. It just knocks on our private healthcare system. On average, (I'll try to find the article link from Fark again) people wait 6-7 times as long for routine surgery in Canada as they do in the US.

MorbidKate · Post by **MorbidKate** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:55 am

Nekulor wrote:Kate, the only problem with it is it fails to highlight the problem in the systems he uses as models. It just knocks on our private healthcare system. On average, (I'll try to find the article link from Fark again) people wait 6-7 times as long for routine surgery in Canada as they do in the US.

LOL. Tell you what, just grab the movie or pay to see it while you look for those links, which I'm sure will explain why we live 3 years longer than you Americans

Maybe it's because waiting a bit for some things for free is better than going bankrupt and dying because your HMO won't pay your bills.

Kate

Nekulor · Post by **Nekulor** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:29 am

My parents HMO pays the health bills for almost everything. I'd rather have to pay out of pocket myself then have to wait a few months for serious surgery because of government red tape. Sorry kate, I've always been a private enterprise capitalist pig anyway. Private health care generally leads to less lag in service, according to most current data. Many others may not, but I don't want to die on a waiting list because some government official has to decide if myself or the alcoholic hobo gets the kidney. I detest Micheal Moore, but I'll humor you on this one and watch the movie, if nothing else to laugh at his sheer absurdity...again (Fahrenheit 9/11 was simply silly). Maybe he'll keep it from being a laughable mockery of documentary this time, but his track record says no, as he continues to distort facts and figures like a bad side show illusionist.

3-4 of the people he based arguments on in that movie ended up suing him over his portrayal of them. One soldier nearly lost his job over it, because of how badly Moore misquoted him.

*not that I actually need a kidney. I like my current kidneys the way they are.

MorbidKate · Post by **MorbidKate** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:06 am

Nekulor wrote:My parents HMO pays the health bills for almost everything. I'd rather have to pay out of pocket myself then have to wait a few months for serious surgery because of government red tape. Sorry kate, I've always been a private enterprise capitalist pig anyway. Private health care generally leads to less lag in service, according to most current data. Many others may not, but I don't want to die on a waiting list because some government official has to decide if myself or the alcoholic hobo gets the kidney.

Your either very young or have never been seriously ill or injured and you know very little about socialized health care that's available throughout the western world EXCEPT the US. Private health care equals less lag because they reject as many people as possible to protect profits, not treat the sick. Patients are a drain on profits, a liability.

There's a reason why 50 million Americans can't afford health insurance so while you may not want to die waiting for a kidney, you may die anyway because you can't afford the $300,000+ the transplant would cost even if you could find one

3-4 of the people he based arguments on in that movie ended up suing him over his portrayal of them. One soldier nearly lost his job over it, because of how badly Moore misquoted him.

Are you talking about Fahrenheit 9/11 or Sicko? If you have links regarding Sicko, please post them.

Kate

Stormseeker · Post by **Stormseeker** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:20 am

Havent seen the movie yet. Don't plan on it either. But i have had the benefit in the past of having my free health care(the va) and private health care at the same time. 6months with the va and i finally got to the point where they would give me physical therapy. 90 days with the private and i had already done 2months of physicaly thereapy and at the 90 day the schedule me for back surgery.
Currently i don't have the private and the va says i am not bad enough and to young to have a fusion. Talking to other vets with spinal injuries the va waits till you are pissing and shitting on yourself before you get the surgery. *points to stormbringer* He can tell you all about it.

Goverment health care will be just like the va...after all they already have a working model.

mxlm · Post by **mxlm** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:39 am

Stormie, bad news: the VA is the best healthcare system in the US.

I realize the article's in a 'liberal rag', but I checked out the data the article refers to myself, and it's solid. If you're curious, google the studies it refers to. Also, the RAND Corp. agrees

And before anyone says 'Walter Reed', that's DoD, not VHA.

EDIT: Let's inject some data into the debate.

Anyone who can read this and conclude the US' system Roxxorz is an idiot. Period.

Especially considering the life-expectancy rankings.

If anyone accuses RAND or the CIA of being liberal shills, I'll burn their home down.

NickD · Post by **NickD** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:41 am

Never been a fan of Michael Moore. He tends to over simplify things and talk with authority about things he really doesn't know anything about.

I've not experienced a full users pay health system, and I really wouldn't want to go through America's health system, but I've used England's fully funded health system and I can tell you it's not a lot of fun having to make an appointment a week in advance to see your GP and then calling up a few days later to see if you can get slipped in earlier because you're feeling a whole lot worse only to be told that if you've survived for 3 days you can survive for another 3... And then when you do go in once a week for a couple of months to monitor your illness you see the same people in there every time who are perfectly healthy but want weekly check ups because it's free...

I much much prefer New Zealand's system of partially subsidised GP visits and usually fully subsidised accident treatment in hospitals. I can always get to see a doctor the same day I make an appointment, and a GP visit is about a quarter of how much it costs in America - it's that expensive for me because I don't get much fund on account of being a fully employed adult. Younger people and the unemployed get cheaper healthcare.

mxlm · Post by **mxlm** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:58 am

I've not experienced a full users pay health system, and I really wouldn't want to go through America's health system, but I've used England's fully funded health system and I can tell you it's not a lot of fun having to make an appointment a week in advance to see your GP and then calling up a few days later to see if you can get slipped in earlier because you're feeling a whole lot worse only to be told that if you've survived for 3 days you can survive for another 3...

Funny. That's rather like my experience in the US. And no, I'm not using the government run stuff.

Nekulor · Post by **Nekulor** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:29 am

Healthcare generally sucks everywhere you are, for one reason or another.

Lusipher · Post by **Lusipher** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:17 pm

Our health care system totally sucks here in the US. It would be nice to get free health care like those in Canada do, but then you would also get crappy doctors and subpar care. Personally, as someone who has had enough stuff done to him the past 6 yrs I just wish health care was less expensive. My health care provider, IMO, is one of the best, though. They pay for almost everything Ive ever had to get done. A lot of other providers try their best to weasel out of paying for tests, drugs, etc.

As for Moore himself...I seriously hope the government comes down on his ass for the scenes he did in Cuba. He wasnt allowed to travel there, yet he did anyway. Right now, the US government is considering hauling his ass up on charges and i hope they do.

Post by **ayergo** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:55 pm

Mike Moore's old stuff was better. It was not only informative, but entertaining.

For example, one state in the south in the 90's (Alabama i believe) had not yet ratified the amendment to abolish slavery. So naturally he sends a black reporter down there to buy slaves (Rusty Cundiff, you are teh bomb).

Another great segment is when they found a gated community that used public money for roads. They put up a guard gate outside their guard gate and refused to let them out without being questioned.

*wipes a tear from his eye* Frakkin' hilarious. TV Nation was a grand show. Now his stuff comes off as whiny and way oversimplifying huge issues.

Stormseeker · Post by **Stormseeker** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:59 pm

The care i receave at the va is great, especially at little rock(uams is right next to it, and they share doctors/new interns). It is jumping thru all the red tape bs to get it done. It cost money to have surgery, which comes out of their budget, so the longer they can keep me on painkillers the less money out of their budget.
Emergency appointment 2-3weeks, if i walk into the va emergency room and it turns out not to be life threatning i get my arse chewed and it still takes 2-3weeks before my doctor can see me.
Call for a appointment 2months.(primary care doctor) To get into the office for neorollogy(lol screw the spelling) will take me 4-6months. Sometimes longer since i have to get new xrays and mri's before he will see me.

Now with insurance i can have all that done in 2-7days.

Something i did run into at the va that has nothing to do with the subject. At the north little rock facility(ft roots). I was treated with ....well like i was a endagered species. See since i am part of the next generation there has been a generation gap since they had seen a young man with back problems. It reminded me of what happends to a prize bull at the state fair. Nothing like a dozen people checking out your body, just glad i had on a new pair of underware.

Mikayla · Post by **Mikayla** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:05 pm

Like Stormie, I use the VA for my healthcare (I got injured while I was in the military and now I get healthcare because of it). My experience with the VA has largely been good. I had to put some work into it though - when I first came to the VA they sent me to their Metabology department to get hormones (as I am a trans-girl). Metabology, however, did not want to treat me because I had previously had a pulmonary embolism (a blood clot in my lungs, for those who don't speak 'doctor'). Ultimately, they said they would not treat me or prescribe anything for me because there were no guidelines for them to follow (no large scale studies on 30 year old transgirls with blood clot history - go figure) so it would require "medical judgment."

Well, darn, who would look to a doctor for "medical judgment"? We can not have that, can we? Lord forbid a doctor engage in "medical judgment" and actually do something unheard of like "take responsibility" for something.

But, the story does not end there nor does it end unhappily - the women's clinic in the VA hospital contacted me and said THEY would treat me, regardless of whether the other departments would or what my history was. So, for the past couple of years, I have been going to the Women's Clinic at the San Francisco VA and they take great care of me. I got all sorts of little nagging problems I had taken care of. As I had lost my job back in 2003 and I was trans, I was unable to get any kind of insurance or health care - insurance companies could, before 2006, turn you down just for being trans - so I had to use the county general hospital which sucks and is overcrowded and which is very expensive believe it or not. THEN I found out about my VA benefits, which I had had all along but did not know about, and now I am all good and taken care of by the VA.

At least for now.

MorbidKate · Post by **MorbidKate** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:28 pm

Danubus wrote:Our health care system totally sucks here in the US. It would be nice to get free health care like those in Canada do, but then you would also get crappy doctors and subpar care. Personally, as someone who has had enough stuff done to him the past 6 yrs I just wish health care was less expensive. My health care provider, IMO, is one of the best, though. They pay for almost everything Ive ever had to get done. A lot of other providers try their best to weasel out of paying for tests, drugs, etc.

As for Moore himself...I seriously hope the government comes down on his ass for the scenes he did in Cuba. He wasnt allowed to travel there, yet he did anyway. Right now, the US government is considering hauling his ass up on charges and i hope they do.

I'm not a huge fan of Michael Moore either but I thought the movie was good for sparking discussion and debate about the fundamental goals of profit based private health care vs. social health care where your taxes are a bit higher but your treated for free. I for one don't believe only the wealthy should be able to seek treatment, especially when that treatment could eventually bankrupt you because of denied claims or premiums that sky rocket afterwards because you actually used the insurance. There's a reason why 50 million Americans can't get health insurance.

As for you claim Dan that Canada has crappy doctors and sub-par care you should note that our "crappy" doctors and nurses are highly sought after by headhunters in the US. Like most countries, even though we keep turning out highly trained health care workers there are never enough so we try to lure doctors in from around the world... just like the US does which hasn't affected the level of care. In Canada, waiting lists for some things and the number of available beds in hospitals is an issue in some but not all regions of the country. Still, we live 3 years longer than the average American.

The movie did a decent job of comparing the health care system in the US with the systems in Canada, Great Britain and France, enough I thought for people to at least think about alternatives. What surprised me about the movie was the story about how and when HMOs came into being... and it can be heard on the Nixon tapes

As for the trip to Cuba, sure it was a publicity stunt but it was to highlight the fact that suspected terrorists at Gitmo get better health care than most Americans... even though doctors there have been breaking their oath by sharing the medical info with interrogators... but that's another story.

I've been to Cuba a few times now and have always enjoyed it. The people there are some of the friendliest people I've ever met and they get free health care as well. They worship Che Guevara, not Castro so once the old fart kicks the bucket, Cuba will start the shift towards a more socially democratic system.

Kate