Allright, I installed the expansion this evening and had a look at the 2 new classes- much like the Warlock and Planetouched, they add some more options, but are kind of treading on uncertain ground.
At first glance at least, Favored Soul seems quite overpowered, while Spirit Shaman seems a bit more on par with the other base classes.
For those who haven't read up on them, they are both divine casters that use spontaneous casting much like sorcerers, basically they are to clerics and druids, what sorcerers are to wizards.
The basic tradeoff is in number of spells available, against number of uses per day- spontaneous casters have the advantage in the latter case. Additionally, they are generally 1 level later in receiving higher level spells. It appears both new base classes use the sorcerer rate for spell progression.
An extra balance against the two new classes is that their casting is based off two separate attributes- charisma and wisdom. Wisdom sets their maximum spell level castable, (by the wisdom-10 rule), as well as their number of bonus spells per day - while charisma determines the DC to resist their spells (10+spell level+ability bonus).
Both new classes keep the d8 hitdice of their analagous classes, and medium BAB progression, as well as the same skill points per level as their alternatives (2 for FS, 4 for SS).
Saves are High for all with favored soul (seems excessive!) and High Fort/Will for spirit shaman.
Spirit shaman gets some assorted bonuses mostly with regard to interactions with ghosts/spirits that sound fairly focused on the campaign.
Favored Soul gets free weapon focus in the diety's chosen weapon at 3rd, specialization at 12th- also gets to pick an energy resistance of 10 at 5th level.
Didn't look into alignment restrictions, I'd guess each is only restricted to the one-step rule with their dieties.
Favored soul just rubs me the wrong way- essentially all the useful abilities of a cleric (albeit with lower spell DCs and a slightly delayed spell progression), but with monk-style saving throws, and free focus and specialization feats like a fighter. From an RP perspective, I don't see much here that isn't covered by some combination of cleric, paladin, divine champion, and maybe monk levels.
Spirit shaman seems a bit more balanced to me, keeps the druid's saving throws, less freebie feats- the abilities are useful in a more narrow context.
Let the arguments commence!
New Base Classes for NWN2-ALFA (Favored Soul, Spirit Shaman)
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AcadiusLost
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It sorta blows canon. For the religious orders, where do you put Favored Soul? What is he, a cleric sortof ...? He's not a monk, or a priest, or a Holy Warrior paladin, doesn't make sense in the general application of the historical based fantasy religious orders. Now we have some quasi - divine sorcerer, or some sort of reduced lesser celestial.
I dunno, Favored Soul just doesn't make any sense to me. I view DnD as a some sort of parallel to medievil society with all the legends and mythology, but favored soul just doesn't seem to fit anywhere in that context. I can't think of any historical figure that would be a favored soul (Joan or Arc?? But she wore armor, more of a paladin archetype). Well, except maybe the Apostles of Jesus, I dunno.
Spirit Shaman, however, does seem to have a historical / mythological context especially with some of the Native American and pre-Christian Germanic Wenden Slavic societies.
Favored Soul: no.
Spirit Shaman: OK
I dunno, Favored Soul just doesn't make any sense to me. I view DnD as a some sort of parallel to medievil society with all the legends and mythology, but favored soul just doesn't seem to fit anywhere in that context. I can't think of any historical figure that would be a favored soul (Joan or Arc?? But she wore armor, more of a paladin archetype). Well, except maybe the Apostles of Jesus, I dunno.
Spirit Shaman, however, does seem to have a historical / mythological context especially with some of the Native American and pre-Christian Germanic Wenden Slavic societies.
Favored Soul: no.
Spirit Shaman: OK
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psycho_leo
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I don't even know when I'm getting MotB, so correct me if I'm getting something wrong here.
From what you say (and I'm yet to see it IG) the only thing that truly stands out from FS is the "all high" saves. Weapons focus and specialization is nice, but with medium BAB progression is nothing to write home about. Add teh fact that they get slower spell progression and have two major stats for casting (CHA and WIS), meaning the combat stats (STR and DEX) must be neglected if you actually want to be an effective caster. I'd still stick with a plain cleric or fighter/cleric combo.
From what you say (and I'm yet to see it IG) the only thing that truly stands out from FS is the "all high" saves. Weapons focus and specialization is nice, but with medium BAB progression is nothing to write home about. Add teh fact that they get slower spell progression and have two major stats for casting (CHA and WIS), meaning the combat stats (STR and DEX) must be neglected if you actually want to be an effective caster. I'd still stick with a plain cleric or fighter/cleric combo.
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Ditch the lot...what a PG paradise the spontaneous casting system caters for.
Spontaneous casting makes sense for bards, and the spell power of the bard reflects that...not above 6th, and not many a day. Clerics and druids with their conversion abilty is bad enough, but to have 2 classes in addition to the sorcerer (can we get rid of them too?) with core spontaneous casting is munchkinland.
Spontaneous casting makes sense for bards, and the spell power of the bard reflects that...not above 6th, and not many a day. Clerics and druids with their conversion abilty is bad enough, but to have 2 classes in addition to the sorcerer (can we get rid of them too?) with core spontaneous casting is munchkinland.
As with any new class, I'd suggest playtesting the new options before getting too concerned with how powerful or weak they appear on paper. It wasn't all that long ago that people were wringing their hands at the warlock class description, and based on the OC it did not look like the warlock was overpowered to me (quite the opposite, rather).
I agree with the fons that having two caster stats is going to be tougher than a lot of people think. You'll need to sacrifice either spell DCs or spell levels to avoid gimping the rest of your abilities. Also, my understanding of the class is that weapon focus/specialization is going to be limited to the deity's favored weapon, making the class a lot less versatile than the figher/cleric, who can choose any weapon. I haven't played the class myself, so I do not know how this is enforced (2da entries?).
And if you're concerned with canon, there have been a series of articles written over the past year on WotC's site suggesting ways to insert the PHB2 classes into the FR setting. The one dealing with the Favored Soul can be read here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070425.
If they do get allowed, I would hope the FS is subject to fairly severe RP restrictions, even more so than "ordinary" clerics.
I agree with the fons that having two caster stats is going to be tougher than a lot of people think. You'll need to sacrifice either spell DCs or spell levels to avoid gimping the rest of your abilities. Also, my understanding of the class is that weapon focus/specialization is going to be limited to the deity's favored weapon, making the class a lot less versatile than the figher/cleric, who can choose any weapon. I haven't played the class myself, so I do not know how this is enforced (2da entries?).
And if you're concerned with canon, there have been a series of articles written over the past year on WotC's site suggesting ways to insert the PHB2 classes into the FR setting. The one dealing with the Favored Soul can be read here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070425.
If they do get allowed, I would hope the FS is subject to fairly severe RP restrictions, even more so than "ordinary" clerics.
Hmm... reading over that article, it really sounds more like an NPC class, or at least something like the Spellfire PrC, which you don't want PCs to be able to choose left right and centre 
Does anyone have the official description of this class handy? (from PHB2, did you say, Runestaff?)
Does anyone have the official description of this class handy? (from PHB2, did you say, Runestaff?)
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I *think* Favoured Souls are in that weird book that also has the (OP'ed) hospitaller, but imho, actually are a very interesting class to roleplay. Especially if we allow warlocks, they seem the natural pendant to have - a deity bestowed powers upon you, whether you are fully aware of it or not, and whether you may like it or not. Calling them "divine sorcerors" really gets close, imho, and is nothing a paladin, cleric, divine champion or monk resembles at all. They can be oracles, prophets, or just simple Joe Schmoe trying to find out why he was spared from drowning in that pond and why he managed to heal his grandmother crying under tears praying to the Morning Lord.
Focus, specialization and saves don't seem so overpowered - it won't make a melee class out of something with medium BAB, and it won't make a monk out of something without evasion. Could forfeit the specialization, I kind of like there to be some to play a fighter in ALFA - there are little enough as is. What armour proficiencies does the game give them? And I take it they don't suffer ASF. Would also need to consider their spell selection, it may be tamer than what a sorceror would have access too. Their spell power is definetely not on par with a cleric or sorceror in canon, afaik. Two abilities combined with slower progression and none of the "zomg must have" spells make it so, and they also don't have the unlimited blasting potential of the eldritchblasteldritchblasteldritchblasteldritchblasteldritchblast class. Consider how much multiclassing would hurt their spell progression, and how late they get their bonus stuff, and I think we also don't need to be worried about multiclassing for a permanent +4 dex and 1d6 blasting like with a warlock.
The energy resistance is the only thing that seems outstanding there, and while it doesn't seem on par with the resistances planetouched get or the spell resistance of drow or smurfs, they also don't have an LA. Considering the possibility of stacking, I'd say just dump the energy resistance without replacement or explanation.
Anyway, let's wait for some more playtesting and more data to trickle in. I have no idea about spirit shamans, I didn't even know such a class existed yet
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Focus, specialization and saves don't seem so overpowered - it won't make a melee class out of something with medium BAB, and it won't make a monk out of something without evasion. Could forfeit the specialization, I kind of like there to be some to play a fighter in ALFA - there are little enough as is. What armour proficiencies does the game give them? And I take it they don't suffer ASF. Would also need to consider their spell selection, it may be tamer than what a sorceror would have access too. Their spell power is definetely not on par with a cleric or sorceror in canon, afaik. Two abilities combined with slower progression and none of the "zomg must have" spells make it so, and they also don't have the unlimited blasting potential of the eldritchblasteldritchblasteldritchblasteldritchblasteldritchblast class. Consider how much multiclassing would hurt their spell progression, and how late they get their bonus stuff, and I think we also don't need to be worried about multiclassing for a permanent +4 dex and 1d6 blasting like with a warlock.
The energy resistance is the only thing that seems outstanding there, and while it doesn't seem on par with the resistances planetouched get or the spell resistance of drow or smurfs, they also don't have an LA. Considering the possibility of stacking, I'd say just dump the energy resistance without replacement or explanation.
Anyway, let's wait for some more playtesting and more data to trickle in. I have no idea about spirit shamans, I didn't even know such a class existed yet
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My reflex is to say.. cut them..
On pondering the issue a little more in the context of what I enjoy in DnD...
Its nice to have options, its nice to have the freedom to choose a class that closely fits your ideal concept and for some people, these classes may well be it.
In one pnp campaign I play a vanilla human fighter. In another (planescape) I play a half-aasimar/half-tiefling sorceror/monk for which I've invented martial arts styles that blend martial styles and sorcery. Yes. I know that ALFA is not and will never be Pnp but I still believe the point is pertinent to the situation.
Which one do enjoy playing more?
No contest I enjoy them both although the vanilla fighter has been around longer therefore I have a greater fondness for him.
Is one more powerful than the other to the point of imbalance?
Well on paper it might appear so, they are equal levels but I can guarantee you my Fighter will 100% blitz an encounter that the sorc/monk would have no hope of surviving.
I tend to think that we should offer more options and more potential for roleplay rather than fewer, especially since it will take more work to remove said classes from the game.
The one cautionary note I would add is, limit cross-class choices by diety as we do with monks and pallies as I feel that that is the point where problems may arise..
The way I tend to roll is: Yeah play whatever you want with but one corollary.. No RP justification? Either find something that maintains immersion for yourself and the people around you or make adjustments.
On pondering the issue a little more in the context of what I enjoy in DnD...
Its nice to have options, its nice to have the freedom to choose a class that closely fits your ideal concept and for some people, these classes may well be it.
In one pnp campaign I play a vanilla human fighter. In another (planescape) I play a half-aasimar/half-tiefling sorceror/monk for which I've invented martial arts styles that blend martial styles and sorcery. Yes. I know that ALFA is not and will never be Pnp but I still believe the point is pertinent to the situation.
Which one do enjoy playing more?
No contest I enjoy them both although the vanilla fighter has been around longer therefore I have a greater fondness for him.
Is one more powerful than the other to the point of imbalance?
Well on paper it might appear so, they are equal levels but I can guarantee you my Fighter will 100% blitz an encounter that the sorc/monk would have no hope of surviving.
I tend to think that we should offer more options and more potential for roleplay rather than fewer, especially since it will take more work to remove said classes from the game.
The one cautionary note I would add is, limit cross-class choices by diety as we do with monks and pallies as I feel that that is the point where problems may arise..
The way I tend to roll is: Yeah play whatever you want with but one corollary.. No RP justification? Either find something that maintains immersion for yourself and the people around you or make adjustments.
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hollyfant
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Choice is good; I wouldn't want any of the available classes dismissed too quickly. In my opinion:
- Balance isn't much of an issue, the regular base classes aren't balanced either.
- Canon isn't an issue either. Everything that gets added to the game has to be retconned, it has always been that way. And in some situations, the new classes are a better fit than the existing ones. I mean, favoured souls of Sune or Brandobaris make a lot more sense than clerics.
- If we want to introduce roleplaying restrictions, shouldn't existing base classes suffer those too? Clerics are ordained, druids have to be initiated, monks are taught by an order... And let's not even get started on paladins.
- Any class can be powergamed, any class can be out of place and any class can be played "wrong".
- Choice is good.
Err... what ALFA do you play in? There certainly are restrictions on all these classes mentioned. Clerics must belong to a religion and need to stick to the dogma or else they will lose their powers. Druids, same thing. Monks and Paladins both must belong to an order, each which comes with different RPing restrictions, such as multiclassing. And Paladins, which you don't want to even start mentioning, have huge RP restrictions - take for example that they must stick to the Paladin code thingy and cannot willingly undertake any evil actions, or else they Fall.If we want to introduce roleplaying restrictions, shouldn't existing base classes suffer those too? Clerics are ordained, druids have to be initiated, monks are taught by an order... And let's not even get started on paladins.
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Nyarlathotep
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To preface this let me say that I have not even bought MotB yet so I have absolutely no idea how either class plays in game.
Reading through the Wizard's article the biggest issue from an RP standpoint would seem to be that the favored soul is both born and made. That is to say the PC would have a god directly interested in his or her doings from the very moment of creation. This could potentially require enormous effort from DMs as almost every action of the character would be of import. I think that it would be very difficult to include a chosen of the gods as a base selectable class. Maybe rework into some sort of special PRC, only rewarded upon DM/Admin decision (or even a lottery to represent the whims of the gods
).
Spirit shaman seems to fit much better, in a location such as Rasheman I'd say they fit better than cleric. The shaman would also be a good fit in many of the northern barb tribes which usually refer to their clerics as shamans anyhow.
So with no reference as to how they play in game I'd say yes to shamans and a no to favored soul.
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Reading through the Wizard's article the biggest issue from an RP standpoint would seem to be that the favored soul is both born and made. That is to say the PC would have a god directly interested in his or her doings from the very moment of creation. This could potentially require enormous effort from DMs as almost every action of the character would be of import. I think that it would be very difficult to include a chosen of the gods as a base selectable class. Maybe rework into some sort of special PRC, only rewarded upon DM/Admin decision (or even a lottery to represent the whims of the gods
).I don't think it would be so much restrictions as consequences. They'd have more freedom to cast the spells where and how they'd please...but much, much more likly to be struck by a lightening bolt if they deviated from the plan.If they do get allowed, I would hope the FS is subject to fairly severe RP restrictions, even more so than "ordinary" clerics.
Spirit shaman seems to fit much better, in a location such as Rasheman I'd say they fit better than cleric. The shaman would also be a good fit in many of the northern barb tribes which usually refer to their clerics as shamans anyhow.
So with no reference as to how they play in game I'd say yes to shamans and a no to favored soul.
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AcadiusLost
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That would be my preference as well. The Spirit Shaman works well for folks who would like to play druid-types with less dogma/naturepriest flavor, and doesn't paint the DMs into a corner in having to represent a Diety's personal and focused interest for day one in a 1st level character.Nyarlathotep wrote:So with no reference as to how they play in game I'd say yes to shamans and a no to favored soul.
Your contributions are welcome here- that's what this forum is for.Nyarlathotep wrote:If I'm not supposed to post in this forum feel free to delete my comments as irrelevant.