Yes, this again

[Inaubryn]

Okay. Let me have everybody do this... state your single biggest opposition to this proposal or anything similar Let me say that again, single biggest opposition. I don't care if you have multiple objections... state the one reason that you feel this absolutely shouldn't be done, if you oppose this idea.

Oh, btw, Alara. I didn't address your "Rotku's point" of disallowing UD races and allowing PT races. I'm an all or none person, myself. Either allow all of the playabel races that are in the FRCS or none of them. I just want consistency in ALFA, which we don't have.

[Rusty]

The 'flavour' argument regarding Lesser Races simply does not stick. Elves, Humans, and Dwarves can all be portrayed as vastly different to each other, yet they do not have the same kind of racial differences as, say, Duergar and Drow. Elves and Drow (and Dwarves and Duergar) are closer to each other than any of them are to humans in a roleplaying, cultural, story-telling sense, yet in terms of racial engine effects, they are significantly different. So, no dice.

What is really objected to is not that the culture or flavour is misrepresented (I've quote the canon Lesser Race rules below for reference), but that their power is diminished. And that is a whole other argument.

Variants: Races with Level Adjustments
f
What can you do if you want to play a genasi, a drow, or a svirfneblin, but your party is beginning at 1st level?

Lesser Versions

As an alternative... this variant offers different versions of powerful races than aren't as powerful. A 'lesser drow', for example, doesn't have all the traits and abilities of a standard drow character, but she can be played as a 1st-level character right alongside characters of other races. Since such characters never have to worry about level adjustments, they are sometimes more enjoyable to play...

If you use these lesser racial versions in your campaign, you should use them across the board - for NPCs as well as player charatcers. ... Of course, nobody calls them 'lesser drow', since all drow have the same racial characteristics in the game.

Lesser Gray Dwarves

Lesser duergar have the following racial traits.

Racial Abilities: These traits are in addition to the standard dwarf abilities in the Player's Handbook, except where noted.

• +2 Constitution, -4 Charisma [replaces]
• Weapon Familiarity: unlike other dwarves, lesser duergar do not have weapon familiarity with the dwarven waraxe or dwarven urgrosh.
• +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison, phantasms, and paralysis [replaces].
• Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day = enlarge person. Caster Level equals twice class levels (minimum 3rd).
• Light Sensitivity

Lesser Drow

• +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution [replaces]
• Darkvision [replaces]
• Weapon Proficieny: hand crossbow, rapier, shortsword [replaces]
• +2 racial bonus on Will saves vs spells and spell-like effects.
• Spell-Like Abilities: A lesser drow with a CHA score of at least 10 has the following spell-like abilities: 1/day - dancing lights, daze, touch of fatigue. Caster level equals the lesser drow's class levels.
• Light Blindness
• Favoured Class: Wizard (male) or cleric (female). [replaces]

Lesser Planetouched

• Planetouched are humanoids (not outsiders) with the planetouched subtype. They are susceptible to spells and effects that specifically target both humanoids or outsiders. Charm person works against them, and so does banishment. This trait replaces the outsider entry in each planetouched description.

Lesser Deep Gnomes

• -2 Strength, +2 Dexterity [replaces]
• Darkvision.
• Stonecunning
• +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects. [replaces]
• +1 dodge bonus to AC against all creatures. [replaces bonus vs giants]
• Weapon Familiarity: lesser svirfneblin may treat gnome hooked hammers as martial weapons rather than exotic weapons.
• Add +1 to the DC for all saving throws against illusion spells cast by lesser svirfneblin.
• Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day - resistance, daze, lullaby. Caster level equals one half character level, DC 10 + spell level + Cha modifier.
• +2 racial bonus on Hide checks... this improves to +4 underground.
• Favoured Class: Rogue. [replaces]

[Inaubryn]

Actually, mine is flavor. Drow have had certain abilities for eons but now it's suddenly touch of fatigue and daze as opposed to faerie fire and darkness? Uh..? Don't forget that in 2E drow used to be able to levitate and had other innate abilities which were decidedly more powerful than what they have now. But, they stripped those completely to keep them in check as a player race. But, they went back in and allowed those abilities via a feat. So, taking away abilities of the race, while a solution, screws with the flavor of it for me. Power for me is not the real issue as I'll play any race and/or class in DnD with no worries. I'm not real fond of playin' druids to be honest but...

As I said, it's certainly an option, but I'm not a big fan of strippage to make somethin' fit. It would, however, go along with ALFA's nerfing culture.

And, Mulu, you're right. Attrition in the underdark is a bitch. That's one of the appeals of the UD is its oh so deadly nature. But, as you yourself often cite, it's not a simulation, it's a game. We won't players to have fun and dying before you ever hit 2nd level, ALL the time, ain't fun.

In drow culture, they kill each other for a myriad of reasons, perceived slights or disrespect, failure, to make an example, PMS, whatever. But, Mikayla's started of doin' that while in Skullport, tryin' to be faithful to the setting and the race. But, once it became apparent that she was murdering all the people she was playing with and leaving nobody to roleplay with, she bent that bit of canon and racial attitude to accomodate fun. My PC Tazzen has only killed or had killed two PCs. Because, the potential of CvC was much more fun than actual CvC. It lent itself better to plotting and intrigue, then just murdering everybody outright.

We even say the same for other PC races. While CvC is perfectly acceptable IC, we encourage people to find fun alternatives to it.

[Rusty]

Nope, Inny, that is not flavour; it's power. There is nothing about the lesser race rules that fundamentally prevents drow from being represented and roleplayed differently to using an LA system. They still have the cultural and racial legacy - the flavour (special weapon profs, darkvision & light blindness, resistance to spells, and innate spell-like powers) as well as all the non-engine background and culture. They are not quite as powerful, but they are perfectly flavoursome - and the same goes for the other variants. Now, if the reason people want to play an LA race PC is because of the uber bonuses and racial powers, then clearly the Lesser Race system is a bit of a turn-off. However, if they want to play an LA race for RP reasons then there is nothing substantial to object to about it. (And, of course, it means we'd never have to mess around with ECL again...)

[Veilan]

Okay. Let me have everybody do this... state your single biggest opposition to this proposal or anything similar Let me say that again, single biggest opposition. I don't care if you have multiple objections... state the one reason that you feel this absolutely shouldn't be done, if you oppose this idea.

Um, no mate, you can't simply pass us the work of arguing for you. Your system is unfair by established published rules, and by pure logic. The evidence is yours to bring.

Oh, btw, Alara. I didn't address your "Rotku's point" of disallowing UD races and allowing PT races. I'm an all or none person, myself. Either allow all of the playabel races that are in the FRCS or none of them. I just want consistency in ALFA, which we don't have.

I guess "We allow surface races, but we don't allow underdark races." is a lot more consistent. Always depends on the angle. Considering we only have LA+1 to worry about then, the advantages of the adoption of the Rotku compromise proposal are rather obvious.

As I said, it's certainly an option, but I'm not a big fan of strippage to make somethin' fit. It would, however, go along with ALFA's nerfing culture.

Well, this is a published, and apparently somewhat fair option (in fact those races are still better than some of the standard ones, but meh), and if you consider it as "stripping" then again I'm afraid you're just saying you're in for the power / features, not the roleplay / flavour. Entitling you to play something you should by all established rules not be able to is a rather big anti-nerfing, it's a handout, I'm not sure side-jabs at ALFAs prolonged struggle to establish and maintain balance by means of mostly taking away BioWare buffed stuff geared towards a single player CRPG are appropriate at all, in fact I think they show a disheartening lack of appreciation for the solid and profoundly valuable work that has been achieved, especially in light of that ALFA is supposed to be the niche of hardcore roleplaying, perma-death and PGers unwelcome.

[Brokenbone]

Maybe I'd never seen the Lesser Races bit cut and pasted like that, but the powers aren't half bad as a compromise.

If people need the "flavor" (or I'd say "power") of one of the various cut abilities, such as Darkness for drow or Invisibility for duergar, many casters can access those around 3rd level. Maybe wands and other magic items that mimic those sorts of effect become "really popular" among drow or duergar adventurers, military bodies, churches, whatever. Of course, items are worth some $$$$, but getting a hold of a 2nd level CL3 wand for 4500gp (or rod for 5400gp) might be better and easier than living with the XP-detriments of the other LA / ECL systems. Of course, wands run out of charges and PCs might get mugged, still, those packages of abilities look about equivalent to those of non LA races, who manage to survive without SR or +4 dodge or what have you... well, at least until they can afford 16,000gp boots or similarly expensive SR shields or things of that sort.

[Inaubryn]

I'll address this one thing then I'll be back later.

Alara, once again, we have a misunderstanding. I'm not asking you to argue for me. What I want to know is what is yours and other's real objection to this. Asking you to state your biggest single opposition to this is just that. I want to know why you think it's a good or a bad deal. I said so much in my very first post. List your pros and cons.

What I'm asking is... if your argument, not mine, boiled down to one point, what would that point be? I'm tryin' to see if people are against this just because they're obstinate ALFAns who need to be against something, or if they have a real reason to be against it. That to me isn't asking you to argue for me. Maybe we should hop on Ventrilo a little later. This can be done faster and easier w/o the misunderstandings.

Gotta go.

[Mayhem]

How does your system work with LA player races other than drow, Inaub? Ie Duergar and Svirv? How will a duergar, svirv and a drow fare in comparison? After all, in theory these 3 are more likely to interact than any of theose 3 with a surface race.

Personally, I think we should stick with a level playing field, as per the established, published, playtested ECL rules. This means either:

1) ALFA starts at whatever level is sufficient to use ECL races.

2) ALFA starts at L1, no ECL races.

3) ALFA uses the Lesser Races option.

1, of course, is a dead horse that has been mutilated sufficiently to prevent resurection.

2 is equally abhorrent - although in some ways those that love the underdark *might* actually be better off, play wise, if they set up a non ALFA server. But I for one would be sad to see them go, even though I have no interest in playing an underdark race.

I think 3 is probably the best compromise, even though some folks are vehemently against it.

Could we implement 3 with an option to "upgrade" race (by means of a custom PRC) that would allow an experienced underdarker to stretch his or her natural powers into the full monty, if they chose to? Then underdark purists would, if they so chose, be able to access the full gamut of racial powers at exactly the same level as if we were using the canonical ECL rules, whilst those who find it too hard to survive could take a couple of class levels first, before their underdarker develops into maturity.

After all, the underdark races do, I believe, have very long lifespans and it is not unrealistic to assume that their powers develop alongside their physical bodies - so a drow who is old enough to have learned to fight may still not be at the peak of his racial powers.

[Mikayla]

"Here we go again, for the hundreth time,
handgrenade pins in every line .."

Bleed it Out,
Linkin' Park.


I can respond in more detail next week, after the weekend, but folks, why don't we just leave the system that comes with NWN2 in place. Its easy (meaning no scripting or changes required) and it suitably slows LA race advancement. Yes, I know, there are concerns about the players who have to spend all that time at level one, but as the spokeswoman for that group (and someone who will have to do it) I would rather do that than water down the races. So, lets keep it really simple and use the out-of-the-box system. Thanks.

[Veilan]

the Obsidian system - which, fwiw, is actually a decent attempt at a compromise.

Seems you agree with me .

This feels weird.

[AcadiusLost]

Also, #4:

ALFA sticks with what is already in place: A system in which LA races start at 1 xp like everyone else, get to keep their canon racial abilities, but in return have a longer road to that second class level. It has three major advantages in that it:

1) does not require DMs to change how they award XP for LA races
2) is already familiar to everyone who has played NWN2
3) essentially follows the standard ECL rules from PnP

The complaint on this is that it means too long at 1st level, in one-hit-death range- but it seems to me, if it's something the prospective LA-race players are willing to accept, it would be a shoe-in and wouldn't involve endless arguments about how "overpowered" LA races are. Sure, not many will stick it out for 10k XP to get to 2nd level as a svirf, but they're supposed to be pretty rare as adventurers, right? At least we can be pretty confident that those few players are in it for the RP, and not the fast-track to power.

[edit: Mik beat me to it!]

[Mayhem]

As long as the UD servers are subject to exactly the same restraints as the non UD servers vis the handing out of XP and loot, then I too am quite happy to see the UD players stuck with the NWN2 standard "L1 for months" method.

But it would be disengenious to assume that Mik speaks for all those who might want to play a UD race, even if she is their most vocal and well known advocate.

[Mikayla]

Disingenous implies dishonesty Mayhem; I think the word you are looking for is "incorrect" (as you noted that while I do not speak for all UD players, I am their most vocal and well known spokesperson, which is what I claimed). Considering Inny is a UD player and has proposed another system, I take it as a given that I do not speak for everyone. That said, I still think we will find more support for the built-in NWN2 system than a lesser-race system and less objection from outside the UD community than we get from a proposal like Inny's.

The one catch is wealth - under the PnP rules, wealth is tied to ECL, not class-level (see FRCS and the Dragon Mag's Sage Advice on the topic). Now, we do not want a 1st level drow starting with the same equipment/wealth as a third level PC, but it would also be unfair to restrict drow PCs to their class level for wealth. So, what I would propose is that wealth be based upon experience points earned, regardless of class level or ECL; this ties exp directly to wealth without having to worry about LA or ECL.

So, instead of saying "1st level PCs have a wealth range of X" we say "PCs with 1-999 exp have a wealth range of X". Then the next range is not "2nd level" but "1000 exp to 2999 exp" etc. This way all folks, regardless of race or ECL, progress through wealth at the same rate.

[JaydeMoon]

I approve of this idea. Mik should run for PA.

[Veilan]

The system for wealth seems prudent, but does not seem strictly necessary. Considering we let them start with 300 gp like everyone else, and that enforcement below level 5 is somewhat more lenient, I don't think we'd run into too much trouble there.

But nothing really speaks against doing it, covering 0-6000xp (where Svirfs end up having the same xp that their overall character level suggests) suffices.

What would be however disadvantageous is if we can't agree that this system is perceived as "fair". Mayhem raises the point tangentially, but instead of relying on enforcement, I would prefer it if a system would be found that is followed voluntarily, not grudgingly. And the Obsidian system, despite being fair from a certain viewpoint, does come with the "long level 1" characteristic, which, if focussed on that aspect, can easily be perceived as an "unfair" burden (even though it technically isn't - technicality does often do little to govern people's emotions).