New Base Classes for NWN2-ALFA (Favored Soul, Spirit Shaman)

[Veilan]

Huh?

I really doubt the favoured soul can match a cleric in power. What are their armour and weapon proficiencies, was that answered already? I'm certainly in favour of scrapping their weapon specialization, as pointed out earlier. Probably don't even need to replace it, but could just pick improved critical then, I guess, or something.

The winning combination for clerics is fighting better than a fighter, healing like a cleric, buffing like a cleric. They're an all-around Porsche if you want to, because the class is designed to be good at a lot of things - because clerics can serve a lot of deities. Clerics are viable "in cloth" without suddenly being wimps, and once you start piling on for a war-like deity, you suddenly have this terrible machine that outdoes a fighter in fighting while still drawing upon a rather nice and powerful primary spell caster selection, with good inherent resistances and toughness even if you forget to throw on all spells.

My hope was that favoured souls somehow lack the tanking prowess, since they didn't strike me as professionally trained and organized soldateska of a church.

I'm kind of curious to look at the game. From KL's account, the spirit shaman is a rather buff beast as well. The warlock is imho very powerful, and I have a personal distaste for eldritchblasteldritchblasteldritchblasteldritchblast (repeat ad nauseum), but it does offer something to the roleplay and gameplay and doesn't strike me as more powerful than a cleric. Of course, it foregoes most power-checking roleplay restrictions of clerics as well, ah well.

[kmj2587]

Alright, now that I have a bit more time to answer AlmightyTDawg...

My experience as a cleric in ALFA:
Note that my current character is the only character I've had in ALFA, so my frame of reference is somewhat limited as I have no experience in ALFA with any other class.

Also note that my character is an elf who uses a longsword, so he's not limited by the standard cleric weapon proficiencies.

That said... my experience as a cleric in ALFA has been a lot of tanking. My experience in the low levels was mostly hanging around with lvl 10+ chars, so didn't learn much there, but when I got to more level appropriate parties and encounters, I've been the primary tank, for lack of a "real" tanking class. That being said, my character does it fairly well. Lacking the HP of a normal tank does not seem to matter much, because as a cleric with access to magic vestment, my AC is higher than a normal tank's, and that seems to offset the lack of HP, along with a nice Endurance spell. Healing has almost always been secondary. I've also relied pretty heavily on being able to change my spell book around to suit the encounter. There are probably five or six spells of a given level that I use on a fairly regular basis. The ones that I only use on rare occasions though are generally life savers on those rare occasions. He also does everything by himself quite well. Clerics get a few decent range AoEs they can use to soften a party up before using their armor and combat buffs to move in and finish the job, and then heal themselves up afterward. I am not sure what else you are looking for ATD, unless you have specific questions about spell usage or party dynamics or some such.

[Runestaff]

I really doubt the favoured soul can match a cleric in power. What are their armour and weapon proficiencies, was that answered already? I'm certainly in favour of scrapping their weapon specialization, as pointed out earlier.

I'd vote to simply leave the class alone. Yes, they get weapon specialization, but at level 12, and they cannot choose which weapon to take the benefit in (as it must be their deity's favored weapon). Basically this boils down to getting +2 damage with a single weapon at a level which is fairly rare in ALFA; not very overwhelming. A fighter could get both Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization at that level, and in any weapon.

For that meager benefit, they lose heavy armor proficiency, undead turning (with its accompanying divine feats), domain spells/feats, have two casting stats, and have a more limited spell selection. You're right, that is a lot weaker than a cleric when balanced against an additional high save and some energy resistance.

The warlock is imho very powerful, and I have a personal distaste for eldritchblasteldritchblasteldritchblasteldritchblast (repeat ad nauseum)

Not really. Have you tried playing any of the classes you have such concerns about in game or an NWN2 PW? Eldritch blast only works once a round, and it is far from automatic.

[psycho_leo]

I played a cleric up to lvl 8 (7clr/1 fighter). He served primarily as a tank once he got enough HP. Clerics can choose any spell the want (not taking RP choices into account here), so given the opportunitty you can prepare accordingly, so there's a great amount of versatility. Seems to me favoured soul doesn't work like that (if it does please correct me). Low HD undead died left and right with the turn undead ability. I'd buff myself till my heart's content and since I never had to memorize healing spells thanks to spontaneus conversion, healing was never an issue.

Fully buffed I could reach very high AC (almost 30). High enough that he could take a spider queen up front. The attack bonus wasn't very high, but with darkfire (wich is gone in NWN2) you could pretty much guarantee a decent dmg output.

My knowledge of how favoured soul is implemented doesn't go beyond what's been said in here since I don't have MotB yet, but seriously, gripping about a bonus feat that will grant them +2 dmg with a weapon they can't even choose, at lvl 12 seems a bit ridiculous.

[Inaubryn]

I've been hesitant to jump in this discussion because of my lack of knowledge on these classes. But, I feel that the lot of you have laid out all the ins and outs of the classes. So, now that I'm an expert on said classes I'll comment.

I'm gonna say the same thing I said in the planetouched "debate", which I wish would have been more akin to this one. To which I have to say, kudos to y'all for seeking and sharing the facts and makin' structured and civil points for and against the new classes.

That being said, I'm all for their inclusion. Simply because, from what I've read they don't appear to be overpowered or unbalancing in any fashion, just the opposite. And, once again, allow me to echo the sentiments of quite a few here... options. Give the players the ability to choose things like these which are within reason. I believe these classes are within reason, and offer additional roleplay opportunities to the playerbase.

Let's not make a hasty decision to exclude these classes, as we did with the planetouched. Don't forget, folks, we'll have plenty of opportunity once beta tests are up and runnin' at full blast, to see these classes with DMs, against static content, and with/against other PCs. So, let's look before we leap this time. Always a good motto. And, if this thread is any indication, it looks like most of us are leaning towards doin' just that.

Edit: Never played a cleric. I played a svirfneblin monk at live, half-elf bard, and a drow sorcerer. Does that help?

[AlmightyTDawg]

Thanks for the info Runestaff - the proficiencies and the undead turning were things I hadn't considered. The armor proficiency (I assume medium + shield, not light?) comes down to spend a feat or take a 1 - 2 point AC penalty (or get DEX gear). The undead turning is clearly more serious in ALFA. The domains and the two caster scores come down to the same thing, which is a lack of overall flexibility. Just like the sorc has to choose from a more generally useful set of spells, I think FS does the same and chooses the buffs, heals, dispels, and restores with a minimum of spells that cause saves - so I wouldn't personally worry about my DC-score that much.

Also thanks to kmj for the experience - I think that DMs will ultimately self-correct the lack of flexibility the same way they do with sorcs v. wizzies (i.e. lots of generalized magic work through things like spellcraft, NPC wizzies available, scrolls, etc.).

I think there's not enough to warrant even an edit. But I wouldn't be surprised if one or two strong FS characters give the class a brutal rep a couple of years downline.

[kmj2587]

the proficiencies and the undead turning were things I hadn't considered. The armor proficiency (I assume medium + shield, not light?) comes down to spend a feat or take a 1 - 2 point AC penalty (or get DEX gear).

Many clerics who do a lot of fighting will go ahead and spend a feat on Weapon Focus, so if the Favored Soul wants the heavy armor proficiency, they've really just moved some feats around rather than actually have lost anything.

The undead turning is clearly more serious in ALFA.

Personally, I have not used this much in ALFA. When I have, it's been mostly to turn outsiders rather than undead, which you can no longer do as a domain power in NwN2.

The domains and the two caster scores come down to the same thing, which is a lack of overall flexibility. Just like the sorc has to choose from a more generally useful set of spells, I think FS does the same and chooses the buffs, heals, dispels, and restores with a minimum of spells that cause saves - so I wouldn't personally worry about my DC-score that much.

I agree that divine casters do not rely heavily on spells with DCs, so the split casting stat won't make a big difference. However, I'd like to point out again just how many spells they end up with. The list of Divine spells isn't nearly as long as the arcane spell list, and when you give them 6 of each level, it's a serious advantage because they end up with a large percentage of the available divine spells, a much larger percentage than sorcerers end up with of arcane spells. They get three of them of a given level at the moment they gain the ability to cast spells of that level. The rest of them are spread out over the next 5 or 6 levels, but at the high end they end up with a lot of casting power and a lot of spells pulled from what become fairly short lists for the higher level divine spells.

I think that DMs will ultimately self-correct the lack of flexibility the same way they do with sorcs v. wizzies (i.e. lots of generalized magic work through things like spellcraft, NPC wizzies available, scrolls, etc.).

I agree. Of course, this is how it should be. It isn't any fun for anyone if you throw an impossible task at the character and say, "Well, you should have been a cleric".

I think there's not enough to warrant even an edit. But I wouldn't be surprised if one or two strong FS characters give the class a brutal rep a couple of years downline.

I think it would be better if they were switched over to the sorcerer spells known table, but if it's a LOT of work, I don't think it's critical. By no means would I support eliminating the class altogether.

[psycho_leo]

The undead turning is clearly more serious in ALFA.

Personally, I have not used this much in ALFA. When I have, it's been mostly to turn outsiders rather than undead, which you can no longer do as a domain power in NwN2.

That may very well be your experience. I have encountered far more undead than outsiders though. As a DM I also spawned more of the former.

[AlmightyTDawg]

My experience is that undead are among the "best" forms of bad guy because no one ever cares about the ecology/population dynamics of undead (one necromancer = army of indeterminate size and no one asks questions). And while kmj is probably right that it's less of a restriction for FS than sorc because of the relative size, I think in both cases there really are 3 - 5 standout spells at each spell level regardless of the spell list. I don't know that either class is "better" than the other, but the FS is clearly more limited and will be more effective at its niche (fighter/buffer) than a cleric would be. I do think people underestimate the value of the reflex save for that type of character, and at least for what ALFA does they'll be slightly more effective than clerics (and clearly more effective than they would appear in MotB). But my aesthetic distaste aside, I just don't see them as game breakers.

A tweak or two might be nice, but not necessary at this juncture. Let's let them playtest out first.

[Runestaff]

But I wouldn't be surprised if one or two strong FS characters give the class a brutal rep a couple of years downline.

Possibly, though the way the class looks now I can only see this really happening if the FS is used as a mix in class. Say, like an FS/paladin combination. But there are plenty of other high powered multiclasses using existing, non-MotB options that I cannot see this as an argument for excluding or nerfing it.

One thing that is worth pointing out: from my reading of the NWN2 forums, it seems FS is currently bugged such that CHA is used for both spell DCs and spell levels, rather than CHA and WIS. I wouldn't expect this to be a problem long term, however.

[Mulu]

Personally I think having two non-combat stats for spells is a total gimper. FS looks like "nerfed cleric" to me. I don't understand where anyone is getting a different opinion. The ability to convert to more buffs is pretty useless unless you get overextended unexpectedly. Cleric still rules, and by a wide margin IMO.

[AlmightyTDawg]

Because cleric save DCs are generally not their bread and butter. What this would do is deemphasize that more - you wouldn't use spells heavily save-dependent, but instead buff to play fighter and have the DD as your backup if facing a physical-resistant foe. Since those sorts of spells are "lotto" style - which is to say lots of potential focused into a short window - it's rarely an ideal spell load anyway unless you know specifically that you're up against few enemies. Not to mention those spells can be problematic in the real-time twitch atmosphere (and horrendous targeting in NWN2 anyway). The FS is encouraged in spell selection for more consistency over the cleric.

What FS do is have more spells per level, and they're all spontaneous cast - from a real-time interface management perspective, that's pretty much an ideal. So there's no immediate risk of having a bad memorization loadout to the situation at hand (just bad spell selection in general, which somewhat self-selects itself out at the DM level). So whatever you need - you can buff more, heal more, and do more damage (aside from saves and the small lag in spell level availability). On top of that they get two free weapon feats (including a "fighter-only" feat the cleric will never get).

What they don't do is a) the RP flexibility of having more spells to choose from, b) handle undead. There' a minor armor issue, but the worst that could be is solved by a feat. I'd hesitate to multiclass personally because any class off spell progression is generally weak (except for PrCs like Sacred Fist and what not).

So in their niche (fighter/buffer) they outpace clerics. At the table, given a broad variety of challenges, I think they'd be a bit weaker overall. In ALFA, it's less clear - I think some of it will be DM dependent.

[Mulu]

I don't know that they actually get more spells. A cleric can max wisdom for a spell bonus, a FS has to balance wisdom and charisma, thus lessening if not eliminating the spell bonus. Cleric offensive spells are a joke unless you have call lightning from a domain (not sure if NWN2 carried that over), so being able to convert to those really doesn't mean much. A buff or a summons will always do more total damage than a clerical offensive spell.

Throw in earlier access to higher level spells, which can make a life or death difference easily, and I think FS loses hands down. All FS has in its favor is weapon spec, so +2 damage. Given that an FS will likely have a lower strength than a battle oriented cleric, again due to having two spell stats, and it's probably a push even on that. How many clerics have a 16 charisma? Do you have any idea what kind of havoc that wreaks on the rest of the stats? Bottom line is cleric only has to pump wis, FS has to pump wis and charisma, two non-combat stats, and has lower level spells half the time. This is a no brainer.

[Grand Fromage]

I don't think you're quite following, Mulu. A FS only has to boost WIS for better DCs--spell selection is completely CHA dependent. FS has good saves for all categories so lacking WIS isn't going to kill them in the all-important will save department. They do not have to put a single point into WIS.

I'm not sure if the FS is broken or not, but your assertion that they're automatically balanced by having to balance two stats is false. They do not have to do anything of the sort unless they're focusing on offensive, DC-requiring spells; and as you pointed out, cleric offense spells aren't anything special and not really worth the cost, when your spell selection is limited. Arcane casters are for artillery.

[witch]

simple comparison between cleric and favored soul
(im not gonna go into cannon or not etc)

Cleric
Turning ++
All spells ++
# spells a day -
armor ++
weapons +
Saves +
Hitp +
skill # -
domainfeats +


Favored soul

Turning --
All spells --
# spells a day +
Armor +
Weapons +
Saves ++
hitp +
skill # --
domain feats --
other specials +
(weaponfocus, energy resis)

(to me the 2 stat thing isnt an issue at all, since a cleric will also want to have some cha, for turning and most domain abilities use cha, so also wants 2 stats)

Bottomline just looking at the figures. Cleric is a lot better on 8 out of 10 points.

Overpowerment isnt an issue at all.

Spiritshaman is heavily focussed on the OC and very limited useful in any other setting. Shapechange is a lot more useful as druid then the spirit shaman thingy.