Traps

[Amar]

Write up a proposal with implimentation method, man hours needed, suggestions, and specific details as to what will be available, where, and for how much, and the specs on each item and their DC to place.


Then have admin look over it and see if they want to go with the proposal by method of democratic vote.




Want it changed so bad, put some work into it rather than just complaining about it. Precendence can be cited with the Planetouched issue.

[Brokenbone]

I do not have access to the Mongoose or other third party resources. Those feats though seem to still be focussed on the "multiweek trap project" crafting skills. In cases though a 10 week project would be cut to 5 weeks, or you'd get some extra damage when your ceiling-sized rock deadfall fell on someone in a dungeon.

I will check out that Complete Scoundrel stuff though, sounds very interesting. However since that's also a PRC set of abilities, the trapping stuff sounds very, very featlike. I.e., gain a bunch of levels, sacrifice some other kind of advancement, and you get to have a little MacGyver kit thing. It's not something a fresh rogue 1 would normally be accessing. Can put that aside for the moment.

I did at least like the list of traps I'm seeing, they sound much more tactical and "reasonably power" than dramatic damage dealers like a 15d8 electrical trap... with the exception of the two scorcher things. A good number of them seem to be reminiscent of various other alchemical items that one'd usually be throwing at targets (flashbang, or footspiker being like caltrops, etc.) We certainly still have a lot of NWN1 code for miscellaneous unique power types of things, which I am optimistically assuming COULD be spliced into the scripts tied to vanilla trap kits (instead of a damage payload, have a save vs. a puff of choking powder or temporary blindness or something).

From the hip then on that list:

Befuddler: -2 penalty on Concentration, Int, Wis and Cha based checks.
- we've definitely done unique power potions that temporarily buff a few sorts of skill checks, like "Elixir of Hiding", or humorously reduce a few skills, like "Coffee" items found here and there, I am sure that temporary decreases to a huge list of Int/Wis/Cha skills possible.

Enfeebler: Fatigues target.
- NWN1 didn't have fatigue, but I think we've figured out that effect if you sleep in armor in NWN2. However that code looks, could be squeezed in here.

Entangler: Entangles target.
- entangle spell's code, or tanglefoot bag type effect.

Equalizer: Target falls prone.
- target falling over is not hard. Just a brief inconvenience as they get back up, i.e., slows down a charge.

Flashbang: Blindness and deafness.
- NWN1 had stuff like... bamsacks (?) or other flashbang like devices.

Footspiker: Halves target's speed.
- are we able to set move rates but still restore back to original (could do one, but not exactly the restore to original, in NWN1). Alternately some exploration of the caltrop effect maybe possible (though in NWN1, "ApplyEffectCaltrop" was hard coded, I could never find the guts of it to duplicate... someone smarter might've)

Glitterburst: Makes invisible targets visible.
- hmm. Invisibility Purge is a 3rd level spell, I guess I'll have to read this a little further. Maybe it's meant to be a temporary revelation? Or in NWN terms, enough to at least let you "half" see an invisible target, i.e., good enough to target, but still has concealment bonus?

Scorcher: 2d6 fire damage.
- easily coded.

Scorcher, Great: 5d6 fire damage in a large area.
- equivalent to a Fireball by a caster 5, so a little unsettling. Certainly codeable.

Sleeper: Target falls asleep.
- applying a sleep effect isn't tough. Wonder if there's a hitdice limit, or if elves immune (sleep poison somewhat diff't than the sleep spell, as for effect on elves)

Spiderweb: As the Web spell.
- seems to sort of duplicate the entangle thing above. Anyhow, codeable.

Stinkburst: As the Stinking Cloud spell.
- wonder how long it lasts? Anyhow, choking powder type of code or stuff out of stinking cloud can be ripped off.

Anyhow I'll go check out that part of Complete Scoundrel.

For those reading along, NWN1 far predates the Complete Scoundrel. I.e., the Bioware "idea" for big instant traps did not come from there. I should doubt Obsidian was inspired by anything but Bioware in their implementation as well, although I think release of that sourcebook was either not long before, or possibly not long after, NWN2.

I've also said from my first posts that I support some kind of "reasonable" traps that don't marginalize the importance of casters and good magic items, I'm perfectly fine with being corrected on spots where "insta-trapping" has been supported in D&D.

I'm not sure I appreciate any insinuation that I'm among "peeps who ought not be believed about PnP" (i.e., the first Core mention of insta-traps seems to be CS, published in Jan 07). I'm trying as hard as the next guy to find some reasonable analogues to go off of here, i.e., rather than let it lie that maybe we just don't reintroduce anything, in any form... which is also a fairly easy choice, since it's not an uphill battle.

[Brokenbone]

Afterthought on skim of CS: I guess a Combat Trapsmith (who due to prerequisites, probably has at least 3-4 normal class levels, like Rogue or Ranger, before that) has to pick, level by level, which of those listed traps s/he wants to add to their known sorts of traps (or "forget" an old trap to learn a new one). You start knowing 2, and add 1 per level.

Most traps have prerequisites in terms of other skills (usually some craft (alchemy) ranks), most traps also have PRC level prerequisites. Example: any new Combat Trapsmith with no other skills at all could learn, at CT1, how to do a Befuddler, or Footspiker. At CT1 if they had one rank of Craft (Alchemy), they could do an Enfeebler, Glitterburst, or Scorcher. Other end of the spectrum a Great Scorcher means Craft Alchemy (5 ranks) and 5 levels worth of the Combat Trapsmith PRC. I.e., your character will be at least level 8 or 9 (counting their levels before taking the PRC) before mimicking the effects of a minimum strength fireball.

I guess due to how crude these things are, Search will find them, as well as Spot... DC always in the low 20s (function of the Combat Trapsmith's level).

Anyhow, a lot of good information there, good stuff.

[Mulu]

Well you could do it the hard way and try to replicate the PnP version, which is mostly a trap crafting system, or you could just assume that there are NPC trapsmiths out there in the world and bring back at least some of the traps that came with the game. Again, ALFA NWN1 has, through several years of playtesting already proven that they are not unbalancing, so that argument fails. They exist in PnP, if slightly different, so that argument fails. I don't understand where the resistance to traps is coming from other than personal taste and a desire to implement homerules. In other words, whose bright idea was it to change the game for no good reason? Somebody got a shot at decisionmaking and rolled a 1. Not sure who so I'm not sure who to be exasperated at, though I assume Rusty and this thrall were involved, which just proves that doing a *lot* has its drawbacks as well. This was one change too many. I suspect there are others.

Planetouched were new with NWN2, so resistance to them is at least a bit more justified if still largely unwarranted, however traps are original recipe NWN, been in the game for seven years now. Taking them out seems arbitrary and very "homerules" to me. Shouldn't big changes to the game that effect multiple admin domains get decided by admin vote? Shouldn't huge nerfing of two classes for no apparent reason be polled by the community first? I'm just asking....

The most powerful traps have the highest DC's, and NWN2 took away the "take 20" so if you roll low there is a very good change that powerful trap will blow up in your face. A fifth level fireball I believe is cast by a fifth level wizard, but a strong firetrap with equivalent damage would likely take a 10th level rogue to set safely, and of course is not instantaneous or replenishable with rest. The balance issue is a straw man here, it's already been disproven in NWN.

If you *really* just have to nerf traps, you could make them non-recoverable, so they would all have to be purchased or crafted, and you could add weight to them to prevent someone from carrying and laying down a score of them at a time. Though even then it seems these changes should be decided by the community rather than behind closed doors, as they dramatically affect two classes. Had trap changes been discussed first, I think we could have avoided an awful lot of animosity.

[AlmightyTDawg]

Yeah, I should have known better than to believe the peeps saying portable traps weren't in PnP. If anything, they are even better represented there. Guess that kills the PnP argument against.

Weaksauce. A couple of prestige classes (lord help me, the actual Trapsmith class is god awful - Combat Trapsmith is only mildly better) and a couple of alternate rules does not account for "even better represented [in PnP]."

We have routinely argued against the BBBM tendency of expansions which, in their desire to create something new, create all kinds of weird mechanics. I have no idea what a combat trapsmith does in creating "traps" that last one hour or until triggered. Are they magical, drowcraft items that dissolve in sunlight? Who knows?

It's not just that the items are not base canon, but that the discussion that's involved here fundamentally changes the strategic dynamic. I mean, carried to logical conclusion, I could defend a structure/pass/etc. against 50 orcs with a single Rog5 that has enough time on his hands. The discussion of IEDs and such things is investing traps with an a) ease of use and b) lethality which is just not appropriate to non-magical traps. Just fundamentally allowing pre-fabbed damage in disposable (and salvageable) format for high quantities of damage is basically at odds with the system. Even further that traps involve no inherent risk to the trapsetter (fire-and-forget weapons), and they should be viewed very skeptically and should be less efficient in terms of damage output than other sources for the same cost/effort.

I believe that it also has to stay reasonably consistent with the idea that whatever it does should be able to kill/injure 1st, 2d, and maybe 3d-level characters but generally not scale upwards without magical influence or incredible alchemical cost/skill. And magical influence is typically limited by the duration of the spell unless a) the spell itself is trap-like (e.g., glyph of warding) or b) magical crafting (and hence lots of time and cost) is involved.

The way I see it, your constraints are a) weight (which is typically not a constraint in PnP by the mid-levels), b) density (how many can exist in a reasonable kill-zone area), c) trigger (tripwires should be limited in scope and should include a decent percentage to not actually trip the wire, pressure plates would also be limited area by what fits in your backpack, other formats would involve magical sensors etc.), d) detection, and e) damage output.

Just by way of comparison to some SRD items: Bead of Force (5d6 + force sphere, 10ft radius, 3000gp), Javelin of Lightning (5d6 line, 1500 gp), elixir of fire breath (4d6 x 3, single target 25ft, 1100gp), Necklace of Fireballs (variable d6 fireballs, 150gp per 1d6 die, note PC risks self-detonation v. magical fire attacks)

Now, let's get traps put back in the game where they belong please.

Makes me want to look over all the other changes made to the game.... Seems like ALFA NWN2 became a Rusty and Veilan "homerules" campaign somewhere along the line.

Traps will be fine in the game if appropriately constrained. Some may think that minors alone would work - personally I think indeterminate damage is a bad thing, but maybe cost is a sufficient deterrent. That of course is entirely server-economy-specific, so it's tough to argue in advance.

But to think that the existence of obscure rules and prestige classes in late-development-cycle supplements somehow necessitates their inclusion is absurd. Nor does the use of traps in NWN1 - there's no "immersion" to be shared between the two and NWN2 was always meant to be a break from arguments just like those (you can't take it out of NWN1 like "poof").

Honestly, I think that enthusiasm aside, Rusty-Velian got the far, far, far better of this argument. Without any constraints, under the old system, traps are clearly unacceptable. They were a single-player campaign tool to let rogues pump out extreme damage like fighters and casters, and for that reason alone are suspect.

[AlmightyTDawg]

Again, ALFA NWN1 has, through several years of playtesting already proven that they are not unbalancing, so that argument fails.

Wrong. My PC defeated challenges about 4 CRs higher than him through traps without taking any damage and at only marginal expenditure of funds. They were unbalancing under NWN1, and should be removed for precisely the reason Mulu suggests.

Now, in my defense, the reason for that was that Murky had atrocious playbalance on SD, so I felt completely justified in exploiting back in return. But I wholeheartedly admit that mathematically, traps were extremely unbalancing. And I explicitly demonstrated it in game.

[psycho_leo]

Again, ALFA NWN1 has, through several years of playtesting already proven that they are not unbalancing, so that argument fails.

Wrong. My PC defeated challenges about 4 CRs higher than him through traps without taking any damage and at only marginal expenditure of funds. They were unbalancing under NWN1, and should be removed for precisely the reason Mulu suggests.

I don't think traps are unbalancing in NWN1 (if used within reason), but I do think some of the trap kits do way too much dmg. But quite honestly, I doubt you can safely defeat challenges 4CRs higher with traps in NWN2. The greatest advantage NWN1 traps had going for them was the take 20 system. Basically, no matter how many enemies you had to defeat and how far they were, as long you could pass your stealth checks you could lay all your traps kits without any chance of fail. The way NWN2 handles trap setting, there's always a chance your trap will blow up in your face and that chance grows with the expected dmg. Without taking 20, NPC laid traps become much more dangerous and PC laid traps becomes much less reliable.

[Brokenbone]

I disagree that anything relating to traps & balance has been "disproven" in NWN1.

My own trap happy NWN1 rogue should be able to blow up a few blocks of Selgaunt with his current trap collection (much of which gets collected, for free, from dungeon floors / adventure zones in DM'd sessions). I am pretty sure my PC can outdo a similarly levelled evoker for current damage potential, and better yet, the evoker won't even see my PC when he is being outdone. I am fairly sure I am not the only NWN1 player to have found the "sweet spot" of deploying stunningly efficient traps when the opportunity presents itself. As I stated earlier on in this thread, there's something kind of ridiculous about that.

On the other hand, tactical "inconvenience" type traps seem interesting and supportable. They also reserve "raw damage flinging" to the classes whose strength revolves around flinging lightning bolts or bursts of negative energy, etc. It seems core D&D has done this as well with that Combat Trapsmith, that list of traps is all "inconveniences" until hitting the fiery "scorchers" at fairly high level / skill thresholds. Even those do poor damage compared to NWN style trap kits (i.e., minor spike 2d6 is close to the "scorcher", minor fire 5d6 is close to the Greater Scorcher).

Trap kits may be very handy in the single player campaigns of NWN1 / 2, where every room you enter, you have a good chance of needing to kill everything inside. They probably also cover for the shortcomings of whoever you might've picked as henchmen, in case such henchies do not throw around fire or holy damage or whatever other payloads traps are responsible for. Lucky too they have "Friend or Foe" detection so you can dance all over your own traps, but woe to a hostile faction rat who strays onto them.

In a multiplayer PW, there's the option find compatible partymates to do the fire/acid/negative/holy/sonic/cold/poison flinging. No man is an island, and all that business.

EDIT - guess I seem to echo ATD on certain points. Sounds like his past PC was a master of psycho traps as well, and we seem to share some roots in the shame over that, ha ha.

[AlmightyTDawg]

I don't think traps are unbalancing in NWN1 (if used within reason), but I do think some of the trap kits do way too much dmg. But quiet honestly, I doubt you can safely defeat challenges 4CRs higher with traps in NWN2. The greatest advantage NWN1 traps had going for them was the take 20 system. Basically, no matter how many enemies you had to defeat and how far they were, as long you could pass your stealth checks you could lay all your traps kits without any chance of fail. The way NWN2 handles trap setting, there's always a chance your trap will blow up in your face and that chance grows with the expected dmg. Without taking 20, NPC laid traps become much more dangerous and PC laid traps becomes much less reliable.

I'll happily grant that my experience with NWN2 traps is limited. By the time you could get them in the campaign at a reasonable clip, you had high enough set skills not to worry too much about it. In general, you can get yourself to a point where trap DCs are really just time-based worries, because I believe the explosion is not an on-1 condition (can someone check me on that?), but a fail-by-10 condition. With a modicum of intelligence, most PCs won't really take that risk terribly often (and things like bard inspirations and heroism can make it easier still in the fixed-defense situation). And in the cases I mentioned, since I had all the time in the world, it would have worked out the same.

http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Set_trap

Traps are not unexpected-combat tools; they are prepared-combat tools. My major problem with them is the stacking of damage. Things that I believe can help are a) weight, b) decreased trigger size, c) possibility for non-triggering (and adding a possibility of "friendly firing"), and d) spatial limitations (i.e., no two traps within X distance of one another). Now, I know I couldn't get all of them, but 3/4 ain't bad. Further, I would jack up costs on most traps so that they would be on par with SRD values based on damage dice.

But as much as there is an outcry, the removal of traps from Live, though I wasn't part of the decision, was probably based on the simple precept that Mulu seems fond of unwittingly reinforcing. And that is that once the horse is out of the barn, the whining and complaining to force it back in is a dog. In this condition, the discussion is had properly and given ample consideration. I think there's a desire for traps to be in the game, but intelligently so. And I think in the end, the right thing is going to happen - it just takes a little patience and working together, not just calling people out.

[Mulu]

Weaksauce. A couple of prestige classes (lord help me, the actual Trapsmith class is god awful - Combat Trapsmith is only mildly better) and a couple of alternate rules does not account for "even better represented [in PnP]."

Looked better to me, they had a lot more options.

It's not just that the items are not base canon, but that the discussion that's involved here fundamentally changes the strategic dynamic.

And here is where you lose. Playing D&D in a largely DM-less CRPG environment fundamentally changes the strategic dynamic. Bioware gave rogues traps because rogues lost the ability to climb walls, make disguises, use garrotes, etc etc. Rogues, more than any other class, get grossly nerfed in a DM-less CRPG environment. Traps are rebalancing.

I mean, carried to logical conclusion, I could defend a structure/pass/etc. against 50 orcs with a single Rog5 that has enough time on his hands.

Anyone who can cast Ghostly Visage and swing a sword could do the same.

The discussion of IEDs and such things is investing traps with an a) ease of use and b) lethality which is just not appropriate to non-magical traps.

Who says they are non-magical? Alchemy is a form of magic.

Just fundamentally allowing pre-fabbed damage in disposable (and salvageable) format for high quantities of damage is basically at odds with the system.

Spellcasters do it, and do it better.

Even further that traps involve no inherent risk to the trapsetter

Not anymore, NWN2 requires a roll, no take 20's allowed. You roll a 1, and a 10th level rogue would get even a minor trap to explode in his face. A stronger trap would of course do yet more damage. Epic fail here TDawg.

I believe that it also has to stay reasonably consistent with the idea that whatever it does should be able to kill/injure 1st, 2d, and maybe 3d-level characters but generally not scale upwards without magical influence or incredible alchemical cost/skill.

Those powerful traps are *really* expensive in the toolset. Have you even looked? You're talking about an item that is only useable by people with a specific and high skill, can backfire and does less damage than a spellcaster of the same level. On the balance issue, you lose kiddo.

The way I see it, your constraints are a) weight (which is typically not a constraint in PnP by the mid-levels)

It is to classes that are typically low in strength in a world without bags of holding.

b) density (how many can exist in a reasonable kill-zone area)

Should be effected by weight

c) trigger (tripwires should be limited in scope and should include a decent percentage to not actually trip the wire

You get a reflex save, welcome to D&D. I assume all portable traps use tripwires, not pressure plates and such. Apparently they use a tripwire set in the shape of a square that's about 10x10.

e) damage output.

Less than an equivalent level spellcaster could do.

Just by way of comparison to some SRD items

Your comparisons are all useable by anyone, thus fail. Traps are specialized and can backfire.

But to think that the existence of obscure rules and prestige classes in late-development-cycle supplements somehow necessitates their inclusion is absurd. Nor does the use of traps in NWN1

Oh please, they are both in NWN1 and in NWN2, and were put there largely to rebalance the rogue. Taking them out is a "homerules" decision, one made without community input.

Honestly, I think that enthusiasm aside, Rusty-Velian got the far, far, far better of this argument.

Thank you for confirming who I need to blame. I thought so.

BTW, I think this trap fiasco is further proof that Standards should be dissolved. Since when did the DMA, whose job is supposed to be to supervise DM's, become the homerules maker of ALFA? First planetouched, then traps, both taken out of the game without discussion and as a matter of personal preference. This system needs to be changed immediately, and retroactively.

My own trap happy NWN1 rogue should be able to blow up a few blocks of Selgaunt with his current trap collection (much of which gets collected, for free, from dungeon floors / adventure zones in DM'd sessions).

Right, but in NWN2 your rogue no longer gets a take 20. That's a HUGE difference in power output, as well as a potential risk of death with the right trap. I already suggested making traps non-recoverable, thus making you have to buy or craft them. That change, plus added weight, nullifies all balance arguments made in this thread.

[psycho_leo]

Yes. You have to fail by 10 for them to set off, but 1s do happen so it's 5% chance to fumble at least, which is much better than the big fat zero we have for NWN.

Anyway, I still think that with some twinking (add weight, cut out the mostly deadly kits) traps should be available, but I'm not gonna get worked up by it.

[AlmightyTDawg]

Thank you for confirming who I need to blame. I thought so.

BTW, I think this trap fiasco is further proof that Standards should be dissolved. Since when did the DMA, whose job is supposed to be to supervise DM's, become the homerules maker of ALFA? First planetouched, then traps, both taken out of the game without discussion and as a matter of personal preference. This system needs to be changed immediately, and retroactively.

It's this kind of reflexively irate response which only serves to marginalize oneself. I replied "Rusty-Veilan" because you did - so... wait for it... the only confirmation you got was me repeating your words. As I have said before, I have been out of contact in a large measure for about two years now, with occasional post-bouts when I'm trying to avoid studying for finals.

Calling this a fiasco that should lead to the dissolution of Standards is absurd. Standards is a group that's attempting to consider all the ramifications of game design decisions, and members are welcome to contribute their time and effort. Now, how it's run may be open to debate, and who contributes again may be open to debate. But while it is ostensibly under DMA, conceptually every major change and suggestion needs at least Tech's stamp of approval and generally if it's significant enough Admin's too. Standards does not implement anything, so arguing for its dissolution on the basis of an implementation is wrong-headed and opportunistic at best.

Further, Standards is open to viewing - and though it requires a PM step - open to discussion as well. That people gripe most dramatically after something is removed in game is prima facie evidence (though, I recognize that you as a bard Mulu are not affected) of self-interest rather than well-considered game balance. But a reasonable approach under those circumstances - since getting people to contribute before the fact is so difficult - is just to elicit the griping and see what kind of system comes out of people actually giving two hoots.

Personally, I think the trap fiasco is anything but - it's bloody brilliant. I only wished we had this kind of enthusiasm on Standards most of the time.

[Mulu]

And a couple of minor points: If you get ambushed your trap kits are just going to weigh you down, and encumbrance kicks in a lot sooner in NWN2.

I'm only worked up about this because I *know* it is a retentions issue. People like Rusty, Veilan and yourself may think that losing a few newbie members over stupid rule changes is no big deal, but for all we know the new players we lose today could have become the pre-eminent builders/DM's/HDM's/Admins of next year. We can't afford to lose new blood over personal preferences in the DMA core that overly deviate from expectations in new players, and there seem to be a lot of these personal preferences that have already made their way into ALFA NWN2.

Again, I'm not playing a rogue, nor do I plan to, and I'm calling out Standards specifically because it seems to have become nothing but a tool to validate Rusty's personal preferences.

[AlmightyTDawg]

I'm only worked up about this because I *know* it is a retentions issue. People like Rusty, Veilan and yourself may think that losing a few newbie members over stupid rule changes is no big deal, but for all we know the new players we lose today could have become the pre-eminent builders/DM's/HDM's/Admins of next year. We can't afford to lose new blood over personal preferences in the DMA core that overly deviate from expectations in new players, and there seem to be a lot of these personal preferences that have already made their way into ALFA NWN2.

Then content yourself with this: traps are really not ready-for-primetime until around level 5 or so in NWN2. This is one of the many issues, like Warlocks, where a default rule coupled with the time to implement a proper solution, works very well around the in-game "sweet spot."

What I read did not give me the impression that traps were out entirely, or that even if they were, that it was not subject to reconsideration. But there are some very, very valid gripes with traps that needed addressing. That they got prioritized in this way should be seen as an opportunity to get them in so that everyone is happy (or at least not violently opposed to them).

And I think the brainstorming here is just a couple of people's written proposals away from ready-for-coding.

[Mulu]

What I read did not give me the impression that traps were out entirely, or that even if they were, that it was not subject to reconsideration.

Funny, what I read was that if you took picks in set trap, you need to rebuild your PC.

You guys do realize that WotC approved all of the Bioware and Obsidian content, right? As far as the CRPG version of D&D is concerned, NWN1 and NWN2 *are* canon. I'm not sure where the desire to implement as many PnP rules as possible in a CRPG came from, especially given the strong statement by Veilan that ALFA is not an attempt to simulate PnP (which sounds extremely contradictory to me), but I think it's misguided. Some additions are nice, like the bastard sword, but most are attempts to rebalance already rebalanced systems. That in itself isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's highly subjective and subject to personal preference, and the more deviations you have from expectations, again, the more players you will lose. I would keep changes to a minimum as a practical matter, and openly discuss any significant changes to the game before implementing them, rather than shift the burden of proof to those that do not want the changes made by just making them and waiting to draw complaints later. As has been shown, making changes without community consent causes a lot of acrimony.

I also seem to recall that one of the primary arguments against including planetouched was that they weren't in NWN1, and thus it was immersion breaking for them to suddenly appear. Traps *were* in NWN1, and yet it is now *not* immersion breaking for them to suddenly disappear? It seems fidelity to NWN1 and ALFA canon changes based on subjective preference. Either that or you guys have the debating skills of freshmen.

I do understand the nerd appeal of making homerules and tinkering with coding. As has been expressed before, the rules of D&D, debating them, changing them, are a game unto themselves. But it's a game that gets played with detrimental impact on the other - roleplaying based - game we play here.