On the favored Souls admin debate

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Burt_Reynoldz_Mustache
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Post by Burt_Reynoldz_Mustache »

I think everyone has great points and so far has been relatively mature about this.

My only opinion is this...I've been playing D&D since I can remember. When I saw NW2 and the options it offered to implement with extra races and prestige classes, I was ecstatic. When I joined ALFA and found out that the classes and races which are accepted in both D&D and the Official game were not all permitted, I was a little disappointed.

With that said, I have faith that both issues will eventually be resolved. Whether we need to have DM permission, application requests or just voted ordinances, I feel that the most important thing is working as hard as possible to get these races and classes available to the players. It's a great path to open up new and more interesting plots, stories and character development.
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oldgrayrogue
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Post by oldgrayrogue »

It seems to me that one of the concerns raised by the OP on the favored Soul class is the potential for "godmodding" RP by the player. In other words the concern is that as a favored soul the player will create "the will of gods" as part of their story and claim that the god that favors the PC is communicating that will to them -- something that usually falls within the purview of a DM. I may be wrong but that is the issue that appears to be raised by the OP. It is similar to someone submitting a bio claiming that they are royalty or best friends with Elminster, and claiming a special benefit from it, except with a FS it is by virtue of the class itself that this "benefit" is obtained.

All of that said, I don't view this as a problem at all as long as it is made very clear to players of favored souls that they will get no special treatment as a class RP wise. In other words, a god only really speaks to you when it is a DM playing the god. Otherwise it is just your own made up story and there is a huge chance that you might be wrong as to what the god is really telling you or maybe even stark raving mad. Indeed, from time immemorial most "prophets" or those "favored" by the gods have been confused (or dead wrong) about what the gods have in store for them, hugely misunderstood and end up shunned by regular folk or martyrs or some such.

The bottom line to me is let the players play and be as creative as they want, without restrictions, as long as they understand up front that the "story" they come up with about what their deity actually has in store for them as a "favored" may not be correct. Make it clear that they are playing a PC "chosen" in a sense or favored by a god, and not the god itself. What that god has in store for you may turn out to be what you believe, or may be very different -- which is always decided by the DM -- how you react to these revelations is in turn up to you as a player. And in terms of adequate DM coverage to properly RP this -- well as someone who has never received an actual verbal answer to his prayers I'd say that's par for the course with most gods and to be expected =) In fact the lack of a response is more interesting to RP IMO.

I think the RP opportunities of this class are very interesting from both the player and DM side if both parties are just willing to roll with it and see where the RP takes you. Mitch is right in his post -- trust the players -- but as players we need to also *gasp* trust the DM's and respect their idea of where the story goes RP wise.

Not sure if this makes sense but I say let em play already.

As far as PMing a DM a bio, that to me is just common courtesy, and gives the DM the background needed to properly weave the story around your PC so as to enrich the experience. Why would anyone not want to do that? If I played a FS I would update my bio regularly to give my DMs the opportunity -- if they wanted it -- to pick up on the story as they see fit, or not. As long as the players know not to expect regular communication with the god I don't see the issue.
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Post by HATEFACE »

Inaubryn wrote:When I was a DM here, for long time, I knew two things. Players made characters to play, and those characters had a background and goals that were to shape that character. I didn't care if you played a svirfneblin monk, a drow barbarian, a duergar paladin, or a half-orc wizard. You had a story that you wanted to tell through your PC and I, through the story I wanted to tell, helped you tell your story through your PC.

PMing the HDM or whoever for permission to play a favored soul on their server shouldn't be necessary. It's a character with a story. You can choose to DM and try and weave that character into the greater story or not. It's that simple. Me, personally, I loved the concepts and stories that the players thought up and was willing to help them do and try anything to accomplish their aims. Never once did I tell a player, "no you can't do that," as it pertained to the story. But, I was just really open like that and I realize not all DMs are me.

But, if for some odd reason, you as a DM don't feel that favored soul PC can fit in your dungeon crawl, which makes no sense to me, then hey, feel free to not get them involved. If, for whatever weird logic you come up with that you can't DM that Earth Genasi Warlock on that quest to find the [insert item] here hidden in the [insert NPC/Creature]'s lair, then hey, that's you.

But, just realize... this is all about telling stories and being creative. A PC is a PC, is PC, is a PC. They're all just characters in a story. A DM is a storyteller and should endeavor to tell the best story with the best characters, the end.
Amen +5! - cept' players might go to one DM to another. Sorta like a kid asking one parent if this is okay, and if that parent refuses, the kid just goes to the other one. That's about the only concern. The DMs should really just trust the player in some sense and there should be nothing wrong with DMs coming to players with concerns about that odd instance of Earth Gensai Warlock. imho, HDM should only be involved when two DMs conflict on allowing the Earth Gensai Warlock. Players shouldn't kid themselves, the "cheese factor" is pretty darn tempting at times but ultimately the HDMs and DMs should have final say.

As a player, I try to apply some sort of "logic" to the avialability of player classes. Goes something lika thisa;

Common:
Clerics
Paladins
Fighters
Rogues
Bards

Less Common:
Monks
Barbarians
Rangers

Rare:
Druids
Wizards
Sorcerers

Rarest:
Favored Souls
Warlocks
Spirit Shamans
It seems to me that one of the concerns raised by the OP on the favored Soul class is the potential for "godmodding" RP by the player. In other words the concern is that as a favored soul the player will create "the will of gods" as part of their story and claim that the god that favors the PC is communicating that will to them -- something that usually falls within the purview of a DM. I may be wrong but that is the issue that appears to be raised by the OP. It is similar to someone submitting a bio claiming that they are royalty or best friends with Elminster, and claiming a special benefit from it, except with a FS it is by virtue of the class itself that this "benefit" is obtained.
That's pretty cynical. I have doubts that players of ALFA would be running around "godmodding." Having played on exodus, I encountered an awesome favored soul of Finder Wyvernspur. He RPed it in a way that he didn't want the responsibility or grasp why a god would meddle in his affairs or have him to go on random errands. He respected & feared the larger denominations of faiths and went out of his way to stay out of their way. I don't know if a DM was behind the scenes or not but it the best FS I've ever seen. That being said, "godmodding" & using meta knowlege is completely unacceptable regardless of class. In the end the DMs, HDMs, & players will need to cooperate with each other.
“In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.” - Open Message to the Executive Branch.
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Post by MorbidKate »

If Favored Souls are allowed to be rolled up and leave the start area, what's to prevent players from doing just that instead of asking HDM permission somewhere? Are we going to run down players and gank their "illegal" toons because the okay hadn't been given? Just sounds like more complication and more potential grief to me. And believe it or not, there are a number of players that don't bother with the forums that much because of the drama that's usually going on.

If the concerns are primarily RP related they can be dealt with in-game as needed by a DM just the same way Clerics are handled if their RPd poorly or use inappropriate domains. Same with Druids really.

Allow anyone to roll one up as you would any other class and trust the players not to be dicks with them and handle any isolated instances accordingly.

Kate
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Post by HATEFACE »

MorbidKate wrote:If Favored Souls are allowed to be rolled up and leave the start area, what's to prevent players from doing just that instead of asking HDM permission somewhere? Are we going to run down players and gank their "illegal" toons because the okay hadn't been given? Just sounds like more complication and more potential grief to me. And believe it or not, there are a number of players that don't bother with the forums that much because of the drama that's usually going on. understatment.

If the concerns are primarily RP related they can be dealt with in-game as needed by a DM just the same way Clerics are handled if their RPd poorly or use inappropriate domains. Same with Druids really.

Allow anyone to roll one up as you would any other class and trust the players not to be dicks with them and handle any isolated instances accordingly.

Kate
If a player picks favored soul & enters a server knowning full well the loose set of "rules" in regard to "letting DMs know" then that makes them a "DICK" as you put it. The same is true if you made a serial killer villian or "earth gensai warlock" While, no, they shouldn't be ruthlessly beaten with a stick until they submit to the will of the DMs, they should be made aware that the practice of doing so without telling a DM is generally frowned upon. Whether you like it or not, some people ARE dicks and their dickery is a matter of perception which is the reason why DMs need to be involved in some way. Dickery aside, players should be trusted with good judgement and so too should the DMs.
“In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.” - Open Message to the Executive Branch.
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Post by AcadiusLost »

MorbidKate wrote:If Favored Souls are allowed to be rolled up and leave the start area, what's to prevent players from doing just that instead of asking HDM permission somewhere?
Logistically speaking, favored souls require a DM port to leave the starting area of a server, providing a requirement for some level of DM approval. The conversation text associated with the start area exit door explains this to those who may not be aware of the current rules and guidelines.
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Post by ayergo »

I have a different approach that should solve problems:

Lets just call them priests or something else. I.e. They are not special, just get their spells from their god by being charming.

Problem solved.
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Post by Magonushi »

Can we call them disco knights? I think it fits.

1. Their charisma is absolutely divine.
2. They don't like heavy metal. No full plate or AC/DC allowed.
3. They get involved in a bunch of drama.
4. You can't touch/play them.
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Post by Kest »

Magonushi wrote:Can we call them disco knights? I think it fits.

1. Their charisma is absolutely divine.
2. They don't like heavy metal. No full plate or AC/DC allowed.
3. They get involved in a bunch of drama.
4. You can't touch/play them.
rolling up a favored soul of lliira

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Post by psycho_leo »

Magonushi wrote: 3. They get involved in a bunch of drama.
4. You can't touch/play them.
Emo Knights.
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Post by ayergo »

It is too contentious. We must form a committee at once to decide between disco knights and emo knights.
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Relax child, you were there
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Post by paazin »

Burt wrote:I'm pretty sure if there had been a Favoured Soul poll that Ronan would have lost it.
*Pours out a 40 in remembrance*
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Post by MorbidKate »

AcadiusLost wrote:
MorbidKate wrote:If Favored Souls are allowed to be rolled up and leave the start area, what's to prevent players from doing just that instead of asking HDM permission somewhere?
Logistically speaking, favored souls require a DM port to leave the starting area of a server, providing a requirement for some level of DM approval. The conversation text associated with the start area exit door explains this to those who may not be aware of the current rules and guidelines.
We've had a couple server restarts that dropped everyone back to the starting area so would that mean an approved FS would need a DM port if it happened again? And we have DMs around to actually port people? Point being, this is an RP issue more than anything and can be easily managed in-game just as it would be handled with badly played Clerics or any other Class abuse for that matter.

And as usual Helios is getting confused over who the dicks are so he can dispense his daily dose of hate :P

Kate
"We had gone in search of the American dream. It had been a lame f*ckaround. A waste of time. There was no point in looking back. F*ck no, not today thank you kindly. My heart was filled with joy. I felt like a monster reincarnation of Horatio Alger. A man on the move... and just sick enough to be totally confident." -- Raoul Duke.
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Post by paazin »

MorbidKate wrote: We've had a couple server restarts that dropped everyone back to the starting area so would that mean an approved FS would need a DM port if it happened again? And we have DMs around to actually port people? Point being, this is an RP issue more than anything and can be easily managed in-game just as it would be handled with badly played Clerics or any other Class abuse for that matter.

And as usual Helios is getting confused over who the dicks are so he can dispense his daily dose of hate :P

Kate
Point, MK - but we could probably devise some sort of a system where the DM gives a token to an 'approved' PC, thereby allowing them to use the gate like everyone else.
People talk of bestial cruelty, but that's a great injustice and insult to the beasts; a beast can never be so cruel as man, so artistically cruel.
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Post by HATEFACE »

What the hell is wrong with that then? Let a forum thread bleed on to 10 pages of nothingness, everything discussed, nothing being done.
“In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.” - Open Message to the Executive Branch.
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