A house divided against itself cannot stand

[Misty]

If we want to expand the NWN1 playerbase I suggest we have some folks who have NWN1 to volunteer to help out on the OAS1. I agree that the NWN1 community can go on for years, but some folks dedicated to that game need to help out bringing new players in. The PR team is a tool to use..so let us help you out, but we need your help as well.

Last I check on this... maybe a week or so ago, a willing OAS1 DM was told that it was not a priority. The call for OAS DMs was for the NWN2 platform only.

(the potential DM was not me, but someone I was brainstorming with on how to get new players.)

I do hope I'm wrong.

[Lusipher]

Well, Misty, I dont know who told you that and it wasnt me. I think after this Drama with Cipher leaving that we have aired our feelings on the NWN1/NWN2 issue and if anything the NWN1 community should feel as if their thoughts and concerns are being taken seriously. We are going to make an effort to correct things and whomever that person was that was turned down I would suggest they speak with FI or Jayde and see if they can again help out on the OAS1. We are going to need all the help we can get.

[AcadiusLost]

I believe it has been quite some time since a written application has been submitted for someone specifically intending to play NWN1, leading to the impression that most of the new interest in our community is on the NWN2 side of things. Some of those NWN2-seeking applicants are now as members also checking out the NWN1 servers as well, I believe, though I don't know how many of them have made the foray into the wider half of our community.

This isn't to say we wouldn't get a fair number of "drive-by" applicants to the NWN1 OAS if it were consistently hosted and watched by a team of NWN1-capable Admissions members. I am not up to date on our current hosting arrangement for the OAS1, but Ayergo has had decent success with hosting NWN1-Moonshaes on the same machine as NWN2-Baldur's Gate, so it may be that I could host both Open Application Servers on my hosting rig, keeping both consistently available and posting to Gamespy.

The situation with the recent push to get OAS2 DMs stemmed from a definite presence of current applicants on the OAS2, without enough DMs to evaluate them, in combination with an admissions framework that was especially dependent on OAS2 DM evaluation. I believe JaydeMoon suggested a plan to ask all OAS2 DMs to maintain OAS1 weekly time slots as well, though I don't believe that has been followed up on lately. This was a disincentive for me personally at the time, as I cleared NWN1 off my laptop for space reasons while writing up my dissertation; but I anticipate I will be reinstalling anyway to chip in with the horses and such.

[Nalo Jade]

TL;DR (I am a hypocrite for saying that)

I was asked to take a look at this thread and see what I thought.

I skimmed it.

I think its a good idea to talk about this, but can't we break it down to its core parts and then deal with them. Lets not make an impassable mountain out of hills that we can tackle one at a time.

Prob 1 NWN1 builders/hosts/player base feel "unsupported".

Prob 2 NWN2 builders/hosts/player base feel it is unfair that NWN1 community gets a "say" in issues like elections that affect them possible unfairly.

Is that the "jist" of it? again I appologize for not reading the whole thing.

"IF" that is the jist, then

Prob 1 we (Paazin and the other Admin) should find a way to make NWN1 feel supported and not ignored. We may need to recruit talent that can help them out...Maybe LA makes a motion to direct Lusipher to focus on getting some NWN1 Tech support? In addition ask the NWN1 community to compile a list of the top three things they need support with. This would help us figure out what to get them.

Prob 2 we (Paazin and the other Admin) get a diffinitive example of how they are being "held up" by the NWN Community? Does this come down to a standards issue? Maybe the whole standards portfolio needs some major adjustment from the LA. Maybe the DMA and PA becomes a DMAnwn1 and DMAnwn2 and PAnwn1 and PAnwn2, yes that makes 2 more Admin positions but maybe that way both communities feel equally represented? for that matter we would probably need a 2 part tech admin then.

Splitting ALFA entirely wouldn't help things, then we would need 2 of ALL the admins, without the cohesion the communities would develop independently and drift further apart the longer they survived alone, maybe thats not a bad thing? Do we really have enough staff / hosts to handle supporting 2 communities, or would one die off without support?

Transfering PCs from one platform to another is too much work to expect of DMs. AND it wouldn't do enough to affect the two problems. The problem is not with players or even DMs.

(sorry I know mine is long too...kinda kills my point of keeping it simple...pot calling kettle black and all that yah yah yah I know. )

[Lusipher]

believe JaydeMoon suggested a plan to ask all OAS2 DMs to maintain OAS1 weekly time slots as well, though I don't believe that has been followed up on lately.

Im not DMing on any NWN1 game. I dont have my old disks anymore. So, that dog wont hunt.

Prob 1 we (Paazin and the other Admin) should find a way to make NWN1 feel supported and not ignored. We may need to recruit talent that can help them out...Maybe LA makes a motion to direct Lusipher to focus on getting some NWN1 Tech support?

Nalo, I've already put up a blurb on the bioware boards asking for Tech support, builders, etc. This was on the NWN2 boards, but I can make a similar post on the NWN1 forums as well. Not a problem at all.

Transfering PCs from one platform to another is too much work

Im with Kate...its going to be a huge headache. Also, what AL said is true..if we had lvl 10+ characters roaming NWN2 servers I dont think that would help us as most servers are currently being developed for certain level ranges. A lot of higher end content would be needed for the NWN1 characters that transfer over and I dont think we have enough folks as it is working on building "anything" in general.

[Nalo Jade]

The fact that the OAS1 is by appointment only is a major concern. If we start to garner more NWN1 interest we need the server going with stocked NWN1 OAS DMs to bring in new players. We cant have it by appointment only.

Slight correction, with the posting of "scheduled games" on NWConnection we can leave the server down expect for when a scheduled game is happening, They already operate in this sort of "scheduled" fashion rather than "play on demand" PW servers. A good chuck of them anyway.

But to the meat of the statement, it would be wise for the NWN1 DMs to put a schedule together for coverage or even an exhibition style game, maybe do a practive run on some members to work out the bugs, (Since we are being judged as we judge the applicants we want it to be a fantastic game...not a school room lecture on how much more we know about RP than them. ) Ideally thats what I would like to see, we build a rock solid exhibition game, then advertise the heck out of it...same for NWN2 OAS... having no DMs on the server ... is a BAD thing, I would rather not have the OAS up at all without DM coverage. My 2 cents, get the DMs first, get a good few DMed games to showcase what makes ALFA RP so awesome, THEN open the OAS and advertise. Advertising an empty application server hurts our PR efforts more than it helps.

[Riotnrrd]

Prob 2 NWN2 builders/hosts/player base feel it is unfair that NWN1 community gets a "say" in issues like elections that affect them possible unfairly.

I think this may be incorrect. I believe the concern (for me, at least) is that we are splitting our resources (builders, scripters, DMs, servers, etc) and playerbase trying to support two completely separate platforms.

[AcadiusLost]

Prob 2 NWN2 builders/hosts/player base feel it is unfair that NWN1 community gets a "say" in issues like elections that affect them possible unfairly.

The only time this came up, to my knowledge, was in the recent DMA election/recall attempt tempest. A significant proportion of the enabled voters were NWN1 DMs (due to a combination of reasons, some more valid than others), and some presumptions were made with regards to the reasoning behind their votes, some of which were almost certainly off-base (the presumptions, not the votes). In short, the results of the voting came as a surprise to the NWN2 core builders (and perhaps also to the Admin at the time). I believe a breakdown in communication was the largest failing in this, and I certainly don't hold any ill will towards the NWN1-based voters nor their ability to weigh in on election of ALFA's administrators. I don't expect others among the significant contributors do, either. So, hopefully we can lay that one to rest.

[Hialmar]

We aren't splitting resources.

People DM/play/script for the platform they like.

In the past because of thinking this way we have lost people because they wanted to work on a specific server that was refused because we would be splitting resources.

People aren't computer resources, they have minds of their own and specifically for a hobby they aren't interested in being told what they should work on...

[dergon darkhelm]

Ideally thats what I would like to see, we build a rock solid exhibition game, then advertise the heck out of it...same for NWN2 OAS... having no DMs on the server ... is a BAD thing,

Staffing one version of the OAS is nearly impossible. BOTH NWN1 and NWN2 are essentially nonDM'd except on rare occasion.

I would estimate that in the last year the average number of DM hours/week on OAS (either NWN2 or NWN1 or combined for that matter) is less than 10. This hads been true polly since early 2007.

I had only a brielf run as admissions head but I learned one thing pretty quickly.......people have little interest in DMing on the OAS.


IF some charasmatic ALFAn can actually get folks to put in DM hours on the OAS I will applaud them loudly. Either platform, doesn't matter.

Let's worry about which OAS platform when we actually have some DMs.

it would be wise for the NWN1 DMs to put a schedule together for coverage or even an exhibition style game..... we want it to be a fantastic game...not a school room lecture on how much more we know about RP than them

I personally never had much interest in the RP 101/ schoolroom concept. When I did DM OAS it was always in the context of just running an adventure and assessing the quality of players while I did.


I don't understand enough about the online RP NWN community as a whole to know whether we could expect a significant number of quality players to join via the OAS1. But if that is true, then go for it.

For me personally I have spent a good few hours back ingame on NWN1 and am going to try to split my time between both platforms for the time being.

[mishmash]

if someone gives the password for oas2 i could drop in and dm when I have time but as usual for me I can't really commit to set hours. That said I could probably manage a fixed session every few weeks, if someone can find the applicants for me.

[Lusipher]

We have two new OAS2 Dms going to start soon. Myself being one of those. From what i gathered you need to be able to commit to a time each week to DM on the OAS. That way new players will know to look forward to a certain night when they should show up and a DM will be present. Winging it currently is kinda a bad idea.

[MorbidKate]

Prob 2 NWN2 builders/hosts/player base feel it is unfair that NWN1 community gets a "say" in issues like elections that affect them possible unfairly.

I think this may be incorrect. I believe the concern (for me, at least) is that we are splitting our resources (builders, scripters, DMs, servers, etc) and playerbase trying to support two completely separate platforms.

Not really. Yes resources are fewer because we've lost a LOT of people and talent since the days of 10+ servers but available talent for one platform doesn't really affect the other since the new toolset cut out a lot of people who built in NWN1 but who were shocked into submission at it's near verticle learning curve. Only the most devout Geeks and Morlocks stuck with it and started on some NWN2 servers

Now thanks to the various tutorials and time tinkering more people are finally getting comfortable enough to offer their help.

As for DMs, we've slipped a long, long way to a point where it's a constant struggle to crew just one NWN2 server and adding another NWN2 server won't solve the short term problem of declining membership. We need to get word out and get people in to gave a deeper pool to draw from.

And that's the problem. First off, NW Vault doesn't even list ALFA among their Top 24 Game Worlds. We no longer exist in the eyes of potential players and talent. Secondly, even if they do find us OAS1 and OAS2 are vastly understaffed so we miss out there as well. Btw, can new players get in off just a written app anymore?? If not, I suggest that be put back in to at least get a few more people in before they wander off into the night.

Kate

[Lusipher]

And that's the problem. First off, NW Vault doesn't even list ALFA among their Top 24 Game Worlds. We no longer exist in the eyes of potential players and talent. Secondly, even if they do find us OAS1 and OAS2 are vastly understaffed so we miss out there as well. Btw, can new players get in off just a written app anymore?? If not, I suggest that be put back in to at least get a few more people in before they wander off into the night.

These are being addressed currently. I agree on both points. The vault thing needs to be changed and updated, but I had held off because previous PR had wanted to wait to see a new NWN2 server up before going on a campaign fest. I agree that we should update the blurb there and use it. I need to speak to Maximus to see if I can get control over that posting. If it was Wynna that posted it last she has control over it. We can do a number of things to get that resolved.

The OAS problem at least for NWN2 is going to get better. There are 3 of us who just joined the OAS2 DM team. Im sure Jayde and others will be involved as well. As for the NWN1 portion...we need more volunteers to show up specific nights each week. If you volunteer you need to be able to commit to Dming there. Only with a committed time schedule will we see the increase of new NWN1 players.

[FanaticusIncendi]

Last I check on this... maybe a week or so ago, a willing OAS1 DM was told that it was not a priority. The call for OAS DMs was for the NWN2 platform only.

(the potential DM was not me, but someone I was brainstorming with on how to get new players.)

I do hope I'm wrong.

You are wrong and you are right. Yes, the call was for OAS2 DMs only. The reason being that the OAS1 has been "by-appointment" for quite some time now... months and months really. The person who was interested in DMing the OAS1 was told that they were welcome to do so but that there really wasn't anyone to DM. That's not to say they can't maintain a timeslot and show up, or leave their name on the list as by-appointment. The door was not closed, it was simply that the realities were explained.

In the meantime, the OAS2 has had applicants on and needing DMs, and no one to DM them. I'm sure you can see the logic of where my staffing efforts lay.

For many months I maintained my weekly OAS DM slot on the server (reminder that I've been DMing the OAS steadily for about 2 years now) and week after week I would show up and just sit there, waiting. Everyone else was experiencing the same phenomena.

So I altered my DM time to read "If no one shows up by half past the hour I'll be logging off". Then finally when still no one would ever show I changed the slot to by-appointment and asked people to PM me.

In the last 5 months or so I have reviewed 2 applicants via the OAS1, one of whom was accepted. These applicants proactively found me on chat.

Again I say, if the person who was interested still wants to do it, they're welcome to... I can just think of lots better places to people's desire to volunteer to use. I have other staffing needs if anyone is interested.

If it's DM staffing you really want to volunteer with, well, our NWN1 servers need more DMs. They would need to be proactiveDMs, not DMs who show up at a proscribed time once a week and wait for people to show. That doesn't work anymore. If you want to DM on a NWN1 server there are definitely players for you out there but you'll need to contact them and form a player group based on everyone's availability.

As for the NWN1 portion...we need more volunteers to show up specific nights each week. If you volunteer you need to be able to commit to Dming there. Only with a committed time schedule will we see the increase of new NWN1 players.

This is mis-information. As I have stated above, having a set weekly DM time on the OAS1 is not the best use of your volunteer time. If you still want to, I certainly won't stop you. I'm just being realistic here. No one likes to sit on an empty server hoping someone shows.

Now if the PR department wants to coordinate some sort of advertising for NWN1 with the timeslot of a willing OAS1 DM...I suppose. But I am very very leery of putting the cart before the horse as it were. Sure, you might be able to get some new NWN1 applicants that way, but you better make darn sure you hold their hands once they're admitted or what will happen is what I have seen happen to many- they log on to a live server all excited only to find that IN GENERAL the only time people are on is when there is a scheduled campaign time. If they get past that and make an effort to hook up with a group they then find that there are no low-level campaigns happening. Some DMs can still integrate low-level players into their campaigns but many cannot, and many players don't want to play with high level PCs.

Now the PR department can take it one step further and go ahead and coordinate with a live DM who has no players but would like to DM still (there are a couple of those I think) and together they can come up with a weekly low level campaign to accomodate the new players you draw in, that's an option that might work. Just make sure that whatever DM you coordinate with is someone who is reliable and won't just leave the new PCs out in the cold after a couple sessions.

I'm making these points because the worst thing that can happen is to draw new people in and have them be disappointed. A happy customer tells 3 people about their good experience. A disappointed customer tells 30.

I appreciate the desire of wanting to help NWN1, all I'm saying is that it is not as simple as putting out an ad and counting it a success when someone applies and is accepted. There needs to be infrastructure in place to support that person or they will just end up disappointed and telling 30 people about their poor experience. If people want to come together and co-create that support for them, I'm all for it.