Why not chill out

Dorn · Post by **Dorn** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:23 am

Before you post that riposte to the challenge by that person to your initial response to him who was discussing her point.....think....

If someone teetering on coming to our community to play/DM on either NWN1 or NWN2 platforms giong to be encouraged by the democracy of the place or discouraged?

If someone teetering on leaving our community as aplayer/DM/contributor on either NWN1 or NWN2 platforms giong to be encouraged by the democracy of the place or discouraged?

Am i 100% that they meant that the way i'm interpreting it? Do they really have it in for me? (indio/mshady please dont reply to this) Should i confirm with them what they're trying to say before letting the whole community know what i think of them/their point?

If i write this...will they understand my benevolent intent seeing that we are both already being defensive?

Could I PM this?

Is my pride, as a senior member of the community, so important that i have to have the last word?

Is the person who i disagree with and want to respond to the person making the decision? Or is it going to be more effective to PM someone like Paazin or a Moderator (depending on the issue)? Afterall they make the decision regardless what people write.

Sure sometimes the answer will be ' i still need ot post'

But sometimes there are threads which are just you said/no i didn;t i said this/ no you meant this/ you hate us/no we dont but please harden the fusk up....and i dont really see any constructive outcomes/suggestions coming out of it for our admin to take forwards.

But when i'm at work and i ask my staff for suggestions to resolve an issue. If each one of them restates the issue repedatively to make sure it's got their emphasis/flavour on it without offering any solutions (no matter how right or wrong) i would have to end the meeting and make my own mind up. Becasue if i let it go on staff moral would get hammered (even tho the job is actually fun and interesting when done properly) and i'd find it hard to recruit more into the branch as either a manager or a worker without lying about how great it was.

Lets help our admin out as some people often do.

Mick · Post by **Mick** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:10 pm

Well said, Dorn.

While trying to ramp up our PR efforts, we need to make some efforts to clean up our public interactions. It puts people off who might be interested in taking part in our community, which I still think is the best available. This is not an opinion. It is a fact.

If you invite someone to your house for dinner, it doesn't matter how the fine china sparkles, how perfect the steak is cooked or how tasty the wine is, if you let your dog sh*t on the tablecloth, they are probably not coming back.

Joachim · Post by **Joachim** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:21 pm

If someone teetering on coming to our community to play/DM on either NWN1 or NWN2 platforms going to be encouraged by the democracy of the place or discouraged?

If someone teetering on leaving our community as a player/DM/contributor on either NWN1 or NWN2 platforms going to be encouraged by the democracy of the place or discouraged?

I find it worrying that such problems still predominate in the "community" we have here.

Is it keyboard warrior sensibility coming to the fore? Perhaps people, as always I've found when creating a "community feel", just don't get along well when a game is thrown into the mix.

In any case, as to the above quote, it is not encouraging to return with the intent to play again and see several "What is everyone's problem?" threads in the main public area of the forum.

Mulu · Post by **Mulu** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:44 pm

ALFA has a very creative and nerdy membership, who often times are tempted to offer up ideas, some small and some grand in scope, only to then get shouted down. Many members have been the idea offerers, and many have been the shouters down, and most of those have been both. Add to that *actual* conflicts in vision in a game where there is technically no correct way to play, actual and reasonable differences in opinion regarding how ALFA can best survive/thrive, actual in game conflicts that bleed into the forums (doesn't seem to happen the other way around at least), everyone advocating for their own special interests be it platform preference or governance preference or rule preference or race inclusion preference, and of course a forum culture going back years before even I joined (gosh has it really been almost 4 years? ) of acting like the French in Monty Python....

Well it makes for some interesting reading. Ironically the peeps who complain the most about forum drama tend to also be major contributors to the problem. (Not saying Dorn is).

Then there's the anonymous Internet factor. I mean, I almost laughed out loud when I was being accused by multiple people of trying to draw talent away from ALFA for my own project. How nuts do you have to be to think that? Well, of course, the people who made those accusations don't really know me because if they did they would know that: I would never ever run a PW project again, I build alone, and I enjoy building. I've built six mods already, one of them posted to the vault, none of them with assistance. I will continue to build mods for many years I suspect, since half of the mods I built were for my daughter and she's only 5, so I have many years of mod building left for her (they tend to be educational in nature). I currently have 12 NWN1 projects outlined, and I plan to do all of them eventually, all by myself. But how would any of you know that? So instead some peeps jumped to what from my perspective were ridiculous conclusions and let loose with the colorful language. Let the drama ensue.

Comparing the forums at Neverwinter Connections, well they are populated by people who are just as creative and nerdy, and have just as many differences in vision and strong opinions, yet they have no drama at all. None. Zero. Of course, they also have no opportunity for visions to conflict since we all run our own games, and have no governance beyond the website owner. It's the structure of ALFA that causes the forum conflicts (freaking Whitey you were right), because ultimately there is no real top-down order here. There is constant admin turn over and lots of people with vested interests, many grudges, and little moderation. Though lots of moderation has its own problems, particularly in fairness of application.

Anyway let's look at an example, one of the less dramatic ones: the issue of asking for a vault wipe of NWN1. Well, first off, that's what NWN2 was for. It seems perfectly reasonable though if you want to play a new toon in NWN1 to ask for a wipe, I'd like one myself since it would level the field for a few months anyway, but for the folk who have invested years into their PC's and are still telling a story with them it's a slap in the face to suggest their PC's just get deleted for the convenience of newcomers or returnees to the platform, and I suspect that's how some of them interpreted it. Cue Drama (well fortunately this idea seems to be getting ignored). For the record, ultimately the underlying issue is game balance, but that's an issue often treated clumsily in PW's in general. A balanced PW needs no vault wipes.

Another example: Without calling out names, the ongoing NWN1 / NWN2 conflict is *still* being fueled by new comments claiming the NWN1 efforts like reviving servers would be better directed towards NWN2. Well NWN2 folk, maybe the NWN2 efforts would be better directed towards NWN1 since NWN1 is likely going to outlast NWN2? Hmm, sounds sort of rude after all, doesn't it? I doubt this conflict is going to stop anytime soon, given the extreme vested interests involved, though admin recognition of both platforms as equally desirable would help a lot. Moderation of specific comments on the issue would help a lot too, by pointing out that they are inappropriate.

There is no real total solution to these drama causing problems, they are systemic. As long as there are opportunities for vision conflict, those conflicts will express themselves on the boards. As long as people are willing to offer ideas, they will be debated and shouted down. The only alternative is to carve ALFA in stone with no changes ever made again, at which point its lack of adaptation will be its ultimate demise, besides no one has the authority to do that.

Maybe an "ideas, rules and visions" forum that is heavily moderated would help, since that seems to be the source of the worst of the forum drama (well, other than elections). Then again these things tend to happen in cycles so it should be quiet for awhile now.

Lusipher · Post by **Lusipher** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:00 pm

What we need is the Paazin and the moderation team to finally finalize these new moderation rules and then add the new mods they said their going to add. We then need them to do their jobs and then people will come to realize that all this nonsense is gonna come to an end or people are gonna get strikes and worse if it continues. I honestly dont know why its taking so long for them to hash this out. Making enough suggestions and agreeing doesnt take forever you just need to get comfortable with what you have on the table as best as you can and enforce them. We seriously need to change things here on these forums and IRC because you DO NOT see this kinda of stuff at other projects. They are dealt with swiftly and those who cause the problems are quickly made to stop or shown the door.

Paazin, Ive even Pm'd you about this. Please stop debating these new rules and put them into practice. Everyday another heated argument pops up on these forums and it continues to go on with no mods ever doing a damn thing about it is another day either new players see whats happening here and leave or old players stroll through the forums and take a look and shake their heads with disgust and leave as well.

I honestly do not want to do PR for this place while all this nonsense continues. You have people who no matter what you say to them will continue to post and continue to stir the pot. End the nonsense.

danielmn · Post by **danielmn** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:17 pm

Holy Crap Danubus!!!!

I just realized something...I said something along the veins of what your saying a year or two ago when I was Retentions Head...and I think you were one of the ones that replied to me with a middle finger and an I will say whatever the F*%# I want to...

Just wanted to let you know I am proud of your change of heart.

Lusipher · Post by **Lusipher** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:24 pm

Im getting old

Wynna · Post by **Wynna** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:26 pm

Excellent post, Dorn. Thank you.

I have focussed my attention on moderating and will do my best to enforce civility evenly and sensibly.

HATEFACE · Post by **HATEFACE** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:22 pm

*gasps* Insane power(semblance thereof) craving nerds on MY internets?! GTFO!!

FanaticusIncendi · Post by **FanaticusIncendi** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:17 pm

Lusipher wrote:Paazin, Ive even Pm'd you about this. Please stop debating these new rules and put them into practice. Everyday another heated argument pops up on these forums and it continues to go on with no mods ever doing a damn thing about it is another day either new players see whats happening here and leave or old players stroll through the forums and take a look and shake their heads with disgust and leave as well.

Transparency:

Paazin started a moderation discussion on June 23. Discussion ensued. I polled a sampling of our members on the subject on June 24. On June 25, I posted a proposal for a new moderation system. Discussion ensued with the majority being in favor of said proposal. On July 2, I compiled the results of my membership queries and posted the anonymous responses for review of the other admin.

On July 12 I posted a poll to see if we would officially adopt the new policy. The poll was opened to all admin and HDMs to vote in. As of today we have 7 yes and 1 no and have begun to assemble a team of anonymous moderators. The full policy will be posted in the general discussion forum when we have all the pieces assembled.

Please be aware that we are all juggling many issues that need attending ti simultaneously, not to mention that we all have real lives as well. We're moving as fast as we are able.

Nalo Jade · Post by **Nalo Jade** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:05 pm

Lusipher wrote:What we need is the Paazin and the moderation team to finally finalize these new moderation rules and then add the new mods they said their going to add. We then need them to do their jobs and then people will come to realize that all this nonsense is gonna come to an end or people are gonna get strikes and worse if it continues. I honestly dont know why its taking so long for them to hash this out. Making enough suggestions and agreeing doesnt take forever you just need to get comfortable with what you have on the table as best as you can and enforce them. We seriously need to change things here on these forums and IRC because you DO NOT see this kinda of stuff at other projects. They are dealt with swiftly and those who cause the problems are quickly made to stop or shown the door.

Paazin, Ive even Pm'd you about this. Please stop debating these new rules and put them into practice. Everyday another heated argument pops up on these forums and it continues to go on with no mods ever doing a damn thing about it is another day either new players see whats happening here and leave or old players stroll through the forums and take a look and shake their heads with disgust and leave as well.

I honestly do not want to do PR for this place while all this nonsense continues. You have people who no matter what you say to them will continue to post and continue to stir the pot. End the nonsense.

First off, Thanks for the update FI!

Danubus? I agree with your post 100%, but your tone is WAY hypocritical, no need to be so aggressive, contentious ect... you could have sent Paazin a PM. [edit.] Another PM and waited, or else PMed other Admin...but calling someone out in public in a "confrontational" way is ... not... what we are trying for, right?

I could have sent you a PM as well, I chose to use this as an example however, I know you are fighting for the same thing and that is cool, however we all have to be careful (especially me) of our tone and how easily it could be preceived by others. I hope you can take my critisism for whats its worth and not anything personal.

X2 we cannot encourage people to come to our house while we have a pooch with IBS sharting all over the pretty placeables.

JaydeMoon · Post by **JaydeMoon** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:28 am

You ALL suck.

No, I'm not PMing everybody.

Dorn, add this to your list of questions to ask yourself:

Am I truly aware of all everything going on behind the scenes that pertains to this issue?

White Warlock · Post by **White Warlock** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:42 am

Could I PM this?

A far greater effort to utilize PMs will significantly reduce tensions. If something is intended for only one or two people, then make it a PM. If it is a public discussion, for many eyes, then keep it public, but also maintain civility.

I see the 'flaming' occur when it becomes a trading of blows, of individuals battling it out in public. Take it to PMs as often as possible.

Mulu · Post by **Mulu** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:04 pm

PM's aren't always the solution. I quit Standards over Rusty's abusive PM's to me. He's not the only one I've received them from.

AcadiusLost · Post by **AcadiusLost** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:07 pm

Agreed with Mulu (shocking, I know) PMs as a channel for scathing criticism, personal attacks, or just plain angry venting are potentially quite a bit worse than the public attacks, in that they make the recipient feel singled out, and at the same time leave the rest of the community oblivious to the "ugly side" of the poisonous PM'er. I think we've had a few folks who have dealt in these over the years, and they've done a lot of damage to morale (moreso in that they are under the radar of moderators, and the offended party risks an Infra strike themselves if they publically post material without the sender's permission.

On the other hand, PMs are quite useful for offering to help, passing along sincere thanks, asking about potential exploits, concerns about specific details which are best not posted publicly, etc.