Bullying Discussion

[Wynna]

Recent threads that have been aggressively negative toward a well-meaning member of the community prompt me to post this. PMs and threads involved range from outright insult to a spin-off in OT that has been defined as a caricature of that well meaning member as "all hat and no cattle." While that may not be the intent of some posters in this thread, who intend only to take part in the photoshop fest, please be aware of the roots of it and of how it feels to be the one caricatured. Perhaps each of us has been there at some point.

Also please be aware of the roots of exactly why one would feel the need to bully somebody. It says more about the bully than it does the victim. Bullying is a pack behavior. The bully will normally portray the victim as 'deserving it' for a variety of reasons, when in actuality bullying is a dominance pattern of abuse of those perceived as weak. It is shameful in a sentient being.

Workplace bullying, like childhood bullying, is the tendency of individuals or groups to use persistent aggressive or unreasonable behavior against a co-worker. Workplace bullying can include such tactics as verbal, nonverbal, and even physical abuse. This type of aggression is particularly difficult because unlike the typical forms of schoolyard bullying, workplace bullies often operate within the established rules and policies of their organization and their society. Bullying in the workplace therefore takes a wide variety of forms, from being rude or belligerent, to screaming or cursing, destruction of property or work product, social ostracism, and even physical assault.

Defining workplace bullying

While there is no single, formally- agreed-upon definition of workplace bullying, several researchers have tried to define it. Some categorize all harmful boss-behavior directed at employees as bullying. Others separate behaviors into different patterns, labeling a subset of those behaviors as bullying, explaining that there are different ways to deal effectively with specific patterns of behavior depending. Some workplace bullying is defined as involving an employee’s immediate supervisor, manager or boss in conjunction with other employees, while other workplace bullying is defined as involving only an employee’s immediate supervisor, manager or boss.

For example, according to Tracy, Lutgen-Sandvik, and Alberts[1], researchers associated with the Project for Wellness and Work-Life workplace bullying is most often "a combination of tactics in which numerous types of hostile communication and behavior are used" (p. 152).

Gary and Ruth Namie define workplace bullying as "repeated, health-harming mistreatment, verbal abuse, or conduct which is threatening, humiliating, intimidating, or sabotage that interferes with work or some combination of the three.".[2]. Pamela Lutgen-Sandvik[3] expands this definition, stating that workplace bullying is "persistent verbal and nonverbal aggression at work, that includes personal attacks, social ostracism, and a multitude of other painful messages and hostile interactions." Noa Davenport, Ruth Distler-Schwartz and Gail Pursell-Elliot identify “mobbing” as a particular type of bullying that is not as apparent as most, defining it as "…an emotional assault. It begins when when an individual becomes the target of disrespectful and harmful behavior. Through innuendo, rumors, and public discrediting, a hostile environment is created in which one individual gathers others to willingly, or unwillingly, participate in continuous malevolent actions to force a person out of the workplace." Marilyn Haight identifies thirteen patterns of bad-boss-behavior, with workplace bullying being only one of those patterns: "Bully Bosses try to intimidate the people who report to them. They insult, taunt, harass and threaten employees. They snap, shout, ridicule, and/or curse at them. While abusing people, both verbally and psychologically, bullying bosses have that cat-that-swallowed-the-canary, satirical expression on their faces. They appear to be out of control while attacking, but they are very much in control and keenly aware of the emotional reactions of the people around them."

According to Pamela Lutgin-Sandvik[4], the lack of unifying language to name the phenomenon of workplace bullying is a problem because without a unifying term or phrase, individuals have difficulty naming their experiences of abuse, and therefore have trouble pursuing justice against the bully. Unlike the term "sexual harassment," which named a specific problem and is now recognized in U.S. law (and many international laws), workplace bullying is still being established as a relevant social problem and is in need of a specific vernacular. Marilyn Haight has taken a step toward isolating and naming thirteen specific behavioral patterns which are typically lumped together under the generic term of bullying.

I am very tired of standing by while the well-intentioned are bullied by the aggressive. I would like to kick off a discussion of just what constitutes bullying in your mind, and where to draw the line in ALFA.

Thank you. [/quote]

[ThinkTank]

Moderated because we can

[Wynna]

Thank you, TT. I prefer kittens. The references to Moderated: Ethnic slurs are disallowed regardless of context. I find offensive and a further example of having fun in a negatively aggressive way at the expense of somebody else. I request moderation of the link. Of course, TT, I welcome any real discussion.

[Nalo Jade]

An unsolicited emotionally charged negative response.

If someone posts.

I think X about Y in a tone that is devoid of emotional undertones...a response that includes a "tone of voice" that is negative takes the conversation off topic. It becomes about the negative tone rather than the subject.

This is just one small example, that I have experianced. Another common activity I have seen...

Spamming a topic for amusement.

This is equivelent to a kid kicking over your sandcastle, in both its level of maturity and its aim.

The most important "evidence" of bullying is that when the "whistle blower" complains it is followed by accusations from the "bully" that it is entirely the fault of the target. (I would rather use target than "victim")

This is equivelent to a rapist claiming the woman was flirting with him show she wanted it, in both its level of idiocy and deferment of blame.

The added insulation of our communication environment (as everyone already knows) provides a unique haven for this behavior that in normal society would have more immediate consequences from the targets themselves (like a broken nose)... in this situation the only defense for a target is a collective decision from the majority in the community itself to ostercise this sort of behavior.

If it is catastrophically and uniformally condemned behavior it will not be allowed to take "root". Yes this means we will lose members, some that have done a LOT for the community. The only reason I say this is I doubt the ability of a long time tiger to "change their stripes". When going into a discussion about this I think it is important to weigh in on how far the community is willing to go.

Would you permanently ban a major contributing member for picking on a member that the community has implied it is okay to pick on? After all, you are not being picked on, and being picked on is not a big deal, just ignore it.

Silence is approval.

my two cents.

[zicada]

I'm sure you have heard the "This is the internets" argument before Wynna. Again, i think it is a very important one.

People who are bullies, are actually conciously trying to HARM other people. I'd say 95% of the posts in these forums are not meant to harm anyone at all. Most of it is likely due to a lack of humor,- specifically weird nerdy internets-humor.
The rest, which is very true for this particular case,- is that some people use situations like these to make themselves into a victim so that they may in term post asking for approval from others. Thang put it nicely: "Approval Junkie"
So to twist your argument upside down; in this case, the behavior says more about the "victim" than the "bully".

Your huge copy/paste from wikipedia talks about workplace bullying. I think most of us realize how using that as an argument in a hobby based ONLINE gaming community is bound to fail.

I do not, obviously,- condone going after innocent people with the intent to harm them in some way. I doubt anyone here do. On the other hand, it will just piss a lot of people off even more if we're suddenly supposed to pretend we're formal lawyers with ties,- very few online communities are like that, for a reason.

What is evident to me in the new moderation thing, is that there's more emphasis on HOW things are said, as opposed to WHAT is said. To me, whoever came up with this idea have failed in understanding what the problem is and how to solve it.

Wynna, I believe you are running to the rescue without fully understanding what the issue is. Taking the 'perceived weak (your words, not mine) party's side is obviously a good trait, but only when it is deserved.

Forums are like those Chinese finger-traps. The solution isn't to apply force,- there's a trick to it. Moderating with FORCE, taking away freedom of speech, and basically running a small fascist regime-style system, is never going to work out. All it will do is teach the people who are used to being blunt and saying what they mean, to start acting like the vocal minority who spend hours carefully wording their drama-spawning evil posts to bypass typical classic moderation. The latter, I identify as the real problem, which no amount of moderation will ever solve.


[edit]
Oh, and "all hat and no cattle." ? What's that even mean ?. I don't think you believe yourself that anyone had even thought about that Wynna. That was all Nalo's over active imagination trying to find something negative to point out about what was a rather hilarious photoshop session,- never meant to be anything but fun.

[zicada]

I would also like to point this out: Wynna just got moderated for taking words out of ED and posting them out of context to make a point.
This was in my opinion valid, and I liked seeing Wynna, whom I normally didn't think would appreciate the difference between mere words and actual context the way I like to. The moderators on the other hand, obviously does not grasp this rather important difference.

[Wynna]

Thank you, Moderators, for the moderation of both my quote and the original link. A boundary has been established. It is unacceptable to post racial or religious slurs. It is a moderation I find quite valid.

Thank you, also, Zic, for your calm post. You and I have always stood at the opposite extremes of internet behaviour, but ultimately I'm not interested in making this a debate between you and me. I am interested to see how many people more agree with you and how many more with me on this subject, and am hoping that this thread will engender discussion of the middle ground.

[MasterOfEternity]

... I am interested to see how many people more agree with you and how many more with me on this subject...

That's an awfully arrogant thing to say; rather assuming and presumptuous. My opinion on the topic, however, is too biased to really be of any aid. I would recommend that people posting should keep their words rather toneless, or this will turn into some mindless argument that ends up talking about Nazis or something.

... it will. I've seen it happen. Really.

-Eternity.

[Guest]

Any comment that may be construed as racism, bigotry either religious or sexual will be moderated. Context and intent are irrelevant factors on these forums. You are welcome, Wynna.

[zicada]

I think what this basically boils down to is this:

One bunch of the ALFA users are very used to other various internet communities, and generally the 'standard' internet conduct.

Another bunch of ALFA users, quite a larger bite than your average community, joined ALFA as their first and only meeting with the general Internets. I'd say the average age is a bit higher in this group, and I understand perfectly well the reactions to what the first group considers quite standard every day Internets.

What we have to do is find some sort of agreement everyone can be happy with.

Group 1 could obviously tone down a bit, especially in threads that bear semblance of productivity.

Group 2 on the other hand must realize that the internet is not like your workplace or social real life. Do not take things so personally, realize most things happening is just in jest. And grow some thicker skin.

One rather interesting thing is that a lot of people who used to fit very well into Group2 would now fit better with Group1. That tells me something.

Obviously there are people who wouldn't fit very well into either of these groups. We're a bunch of people from all over the world, from various cultures, political and religious views (or lack thereof).

Like Swift and others have pointed out earlier, the status quo is hardly as bad as many people like to cry about. Some people just seem to love to complain and cry about the horrors of things apparently.

[psycho_leo]

What is evident to me in the new moderation thing, is that there's more emphasis on HOW things are said, as opposed to WHAT is said. To me, whoever came up with this idea have failed in understanding what the problem is and how to solve it.

The content of a message is of course very important. But the way said message is conveyed carries it's own weight. It's pretty much what it determines whether your point will be heard or not and how it will be taken. If your points are made in a overly negative manner they're usually taken as attempts to offend someone instead of just expresssing disagreement.

[HATEFACE]

Recent threads that have been aggressively negative toward a well-meaning member of the community prompt me to post this. PMs and threads involved range from outright insult to a spin-off in OT that has been defined as a caricature of that well meaning member as "all hat and no cattle." While that may not be the intent of some posters in this thread, who intend only to take part in the photoshop fest, please be aware of the roots of it and of how it feels to be the one caricatured. Perhaps each of us has been there at some point.

Wow. I never realized I was so insensitive to other people's feelings and that hats were so malign in their origins. Insulting and bullying people is no laughing matter which is why I will attempt to make a change and attempt to take things very seriously. I think that perhaps, its easy for people to bully others because the internet, to me at least, is the epitomical definition of disconnection. Indeed, I was bullied during childhood and I'm sure we all were at one point teased or taunted. It is not a good thing to install a feeling of menace into a person. They would end up dreading going out, would inevitably shut themselves away from others, and honestly could be the reason we're all here doing the D&D thing. Perhaps it could be this wildly dangerous and often sardonic use of hats to mentally violate other users that could cause them to shut themselves away from our community or it could be you really really read into things way too much. It could be quite literally all about awesome hats. That being said, when you fix your avatar, I will most definately give you an awesome hat.

Thank you for your continued positive attitude and worthwhile discussions Wynna.

[zicada]

What is evident to me in the new moderation thing, is that there's more emphasis on HOW things are said, as opposed to WHAT is said. To me, whoever came up with this idea have failed in understanding what the problem is and how to solve it.

The content of a message is of course very important. But the way said message is conveyed carries it's own weight. It's pretty much what it determines whether your point will be heard or not and how it will be taken. If your points are made in a overly negative manner they're usually taken as attempts to offend someone instead of just expresssing disagreement.

I think we agree, i just didn't express myself very well. What i meant when i said "HOW things are said" is the use of words. Words themselves are hardly shocking or horrible, it's the context they're used in, and the REASON they are being used in that way, that should warrant possible moderation.

[Mikayla]

I am loathe to post in ALFAs forums anymore (and I don’t visit chat ever any longer, except once recently to ask advice on Age of Conan) but I will post here to side with Wynna.

There has been a lot of discussion lately about moderation, people leaving because of forums and chat, Nalo Jade's posts, and now, bullying. Much has been said about whether people really leave because of forums and chat, or because of Rusty. I cannot speak for others, but I can speak for myself. Lately, I’ve chosen not to do so because I am tired of fighting with people on ALFA’s boards. But I am at the point that I am ready to walk away from ALFA – the problem is, that I love ALFA and its community is my community or at least it was once upon a time. So, I feel I can not go quietly into the night without at least trying to make a difference.

I did not reach this point because of Rusty, though he certainly beat the tar out of my ALFA-love. I considered leaving ALFA because of him and I suppose I nearly did. But as bad as Rusty was, I can survive people like him. And I did not reach this point because of in-game conditions – I have my complaints about both NWN and NWN2, but I am solving those problems (by forming a group in NWN2 and by seeking alternatives to ALFA’s regular NWN servers, like Vendrin’s campaign, for NWN1). No, what is really driving me out at this point is the negativity on the forums and the mob of bullies who dominate ALFA’s chat and forums. They may well take pride in that – I don’t know, and I don’t really care at this point. But Wynna is correct – ALFA is suffering from bullying.

It comes from a relatively small group of people who like to mob up on others, post lulz-worthy pics, and generally reduce ALFA’s boards to the same kind of useless flame-filled pointless drama-fests that exist on other internet forums (some worse, some better) all while pretending to be doing this for the better of ALFA. I have begun thinking of this particular group as the “Four A**hats of the ALFApocalypse” (something else they may well be proud of) because (for me at least) we are approaching the end. Everyday we seem to lose more of the people dedicated to role-play, to building or to DMing, and we retain those whose primary interest in ALFA seems to be trolling and mobbing, to the point that the majority of new threads are not about anything game related, but simply flame-fests between the four a**hats of the ALFApocalypse and whoever or whatever has grabbed their attention today.

The attitude of “that’s just the internet” doesn’t fly. Yes, the internet is full of trolls and flame-warriors and people bullying others behind the mask of internet anonymity, and many people (primarily those same trolls, flame-warriors and bullies) seem to accept and even like it. But not everyone, and certainly not all of ALFA. Just because the internet is full of asinine jerks doesn’t mean we should tolerate such behavior in ALFA. ALFA is our community, and it will be what we make of it – and if we make it a place where only the thickest skinned trolls can survive, then that’s all that will be left in ALFA, and everyone else, the role-players, the builders, the DMs, they will move on. Because lets face it, we have better things to do then spend our time arguing with people – like, for example, playing the game. And the thick-skinned trolls are not going to keep ALFA alive – that’s not their purpose. They just war with others on the internets to satiate their own personal insecurities, and you cannot run a persistent world project on that. Let them take over, and it will be the end of ALFA.

And we may well be approaching the end – something I’ve never said about ALFA before in all the years I’ve been here. And I don’t say it lightly – I say it because of what I see – I see that Misty signs up to be a DM on Sembia, but cannot get players. I see that we have a beautiful new server in TSM, but months after its gone Live, it is still alone. I see that we have grand ideas for servers, but that few are actually getting built because only a handful of people (Indio, ayergo, Thangorn, etc) are actually willing to roll-up sleeves and build. I see that even fewer people are willing to dive into the guts of NWN and support our old servers (Zelk). And I see all of ALFA’s NWN2 game play hinging on the efforts and incredible selflessness of one person – Acadius Lost. What if tomorrow, the a**hats of the ALFApocalypse drive Acadius off? ALFA is not lost – not yet – but it is in a very tenuous position it has not been in before, not since I came here over 5 years ago in early 2003; a handful of key defections and ALFA will cease to exist.

And what drives more people out of ALFA than any other single thing? I used to think it was “real life” but now I realize its not – its other ALFAns. Other ALFAns being a**hats to their fellow community members. Instead of embracing our comrades, we skewer them. Instead of working with them, we complain about what they do. Instead of solving problems, we post lolcat pics to ridicule the community and its members. And frankly, that is not working out so great for us, unless your goal is to burn ALFA to the ground. And perhaps that is the goal – perhaps the four a**hats of the ALFApocalypse really do want to see ALFA burn. In that case, they should not change what they are doing. But the rest of ALFA needs to react if it wants to save the community from itself.

I am not a fan of moderation. I never have been, and I chafe already at the new moderation plan. I see some of what the moderators post, and I shudder – anonymous power is not a good thing. Accountability is good. Transparency is good.

Having said that, however, I am coming to think that some draconian moderation is necessary if ALFA is to have a hope of surviving. So far as I can see, ALFA will not likely survive the a**hats of the ALFApocalypse – so – it is up to the moderators and the Admin to intervene. Personally, I think the Admin should act as the moderators directly. Drop the anonymity, increase transparency, and through the elections, we have accountability. But … that is not as important as simply getting the job done at this point.

I have said it before, and I will say again now – think before you post. There are human beings on the other side of those internets tubes. And those human beings are part of your community here in ALFA. When you flame them, when you set them ablaze with your oh-so-witty-and-sarcastic remarks and pictures, you risk burning down your own village, because like them or not, we are all ALFAns and we all ‘live’ here. Destroy them, and you destroy yourselves.

And before you accuse me of hypocrisy because of my use of the term “four a**hats of the ALFApocalypse” let me clarify – the membership fluctuates daily. There does seem to be a small permanent membership as I mentioned before, but a lot of us get sucked into it from time to time, like I did just now. This is not the post I want to make, but I don’t know how to write the post I really want to make – the post that convinces the a**hats of the ALFApocalypse to stop bullying people, to stop spamming, to stop whining and start contributing. The post that convinces the flame-warriors out there (of which I used to be the queen, I admit) that the people they are flaming are actual human beings, and part of the same community. The post that rallies ALFAns to come together instead of tear themselves apart. The post that heals this wounded community. If I could write that post, I would, but I am not that skilled – I come from the war and drama side of the house, not the calm, healing side, so this is the best I can do. But know that I right this in the hopes of all that I have said above – that we can drop the antagonism, that we can come together, that we can stop the bullying, and that we can heal the community. Because if we don’t – the community will die.

[Mulu]

It's more than just the culture of the Internet, it's the culture of gaming. Realize what it is we are here to do: We are killing orcs while pretending to be elves or whatever. Demanding maturity and respect from gamers is like... well insert your own metaphor here. Anyone who comes to a gaming community expecting anything more than an opportunity to play a game is probably going to be disappointed. This is not the place to look for acceptance or friendship or especially compassionate understanding of your particular personal issues. If it happens, great, but don't expect it, and certainly don't demand it. That's not the purpose of the community.

ALFA has edgier forums than most gaming communities I've participated in, to be sure, but just like rapid permadeath, rare DM'ing and a lack of content on servers, it's part of ALFA, has been since its inception, and is unlikely to change. If history is any guide, after the current moderation blitz subsides through a combination of apathy and burn out things will return to their original state. You either survive ALFA or you leave it, and that includes all of its issues, from unpopulated servers full of empty maps to immature and hostile forums. ALFA, like everything else in this world, is a take it or leave it proposition. You can try to steer the beast for awhile, but you can't turn it far.