NWN2: Deviations from 3.5

[hollyfant]

• The Reduce and Enlarge Humanoid and Animal spells do not adjust Hide checks. Also, due to the non-existence of weapon sizes, they give a 3 point bonus or penalty to damage instead.
• Pale Masters do not get their proper spell progression.
• Disarm has so many bugs it already has its own thread.
• The game has a strange notion of "neutral" creatures, and many skills or spells just don't work on them.
• Summoned creatures cannot be chosen, instead a fixed type appears.

[bartleby]

• Summoned creatures cannot be chosen, instead a fixed type appears.

This one is fixed if alfa is interested

Four creatures from the summoning list represented for each lvl summoning spell and multipul summonings supported with a variable maximum number of summons (to keep things sane). When a player reaches the max number of summons the spell automaticly unsummons how ever many of creauters it needs to to maintain max from last summoned to newest.

All it needs is to have an alfa standardized way of bringing the GUI menu up ie attach it to an ALFA Standard item and have it come up on activation or add it to the standard context menu to show up when the player right clicks on himself and then selects an option like "Summoning Menu".

http://www.alandfaraway.org/forums/view ... 52&t=38228

[Ithildur]

Thought PCs didn't roll HPs on level in 3.5?

Don't have source material with me... can someone confirm or deny with reference to source?

It's still listed as HD/hit die per lvl which means dice are supposed to be rolled; otherwise it'd state x hit POINTS per lvl in the PHB, SDR, etc

Heegz, don't you think it alters the game and shifts it towards something munchy when everyone and everything is running around with nearly double (going by average) the hitpoints they get in pnp? We play with 'hardcore/core' DnD rules setting on our servers/modules. DnD rules = rolling for HPs, in every other form of the dnd rules in pnp and crpgs, EXCEPT nwn2. If you fireoff an AOE spell, it could hurt you and your party. If you die, you really die, not respawn. We don't play watered down vanilla nwn2 in dozens of other aspects of the ruleset, it seems it would be consistent to attempt to follow the pnp rules on this one as well.

It's also a significant change of game balance. It makes life harder than it already is for pure wizards especially, as they gain 1 to 2 hp/lvl while warrior classes are gaining 4 to 5 hp/lvl as a result of the max HPs, while their spells are less effective:

In pnp you get, as an example, a lvl 5 wizard casting a fireball (may or may not be a lame choice, but still a bread and butter spell for many), has maybe about 17 HPs and deals average 18 dmg with the fireball on a failed save. A lvl 5 fighter has about 35 HPs average. Two fireballs can potenitally clear out a room full of these lvl 5 fighters that fail saves and is deadly.

In NWN2 you get the wizard with 25 HPs and still does 18 dmg with the fireball. The fighters now have about 60 HPs and laugh at the fireball, absorbing three and still rocking. Meanwhile, the wizard has only gained a handful of HPs and is still just as squishy as he was in pnp. It gets worse at higher lvls, with many spells being capped while the max HPs keep piling on, the gulf growing larger and larger.

Game balance issues aside, I also find the inexplicable lack of the variable element in HPs takes away an element from variety and uniqueness of PCs and NPCs. In pnp you could have one fighter that was really deadly but fragile because of low hp rolls, while another one of the same or similar lvl could be very beefy with good HP rolls. It lends an element of uniqueness and less sameness which I believe to be a good thing. The game went from rolling for stats to point buy, and now HPs too in nwn2... It's like designer genetics... I find it takes away from the surprise and flavor of 'you sometimes get dealt a bad hand, and have to deal with it' which I would imagine most ALFAns find preferable to 'we get to choose the best possible outcome every single time' as a general approach to these games.

After seeing a dozen guys running around with 300 HPs on one server I played on (that's pre epic) I decided NWN2's HP system was terribly uninteresting.

With earlier crpgs (Infinityengine, nwn1, etc) don't tell me I'm the only person that felt like I'm playing a ratherwatered down game if I turn the difficulty slider down to 'normal' from Core DnD rules, or reload ten times to get better HP rolls... ?

[HEEGZ]

Heegz, don't you think it alters the game and shifts it towards something munchy when everyone and everything is running around with nearly double (going by average) the hitpoints they get in pnp?

Not at all. I am fine with it the way it is. I would also be fine with changing it to a dice roll, but it is much less work to leave it as is. If we altered the HP values now, then I'd feel obligated to go through and alter some of the monster stats as well. I may do that some this summer anyways. I suppose if someone came up with the change to allow for random HP gain at level up, then we could test it for implementation. I guess we'd just need a volunteer to make the change.

[Ithildur]

Yeah, I'm well aware of limits of manpower and other resources; I keep saying acadius (and others) should be drawing a salary, heh. It's something I'd imagine would go on a waiting list for now at best and I was hesitent to post, but it's something that to me is a significant enough game balance/flavor changer that I decided it's worth putting up here.

But honestly, with alfa's past philosophy on tweaking the vanilla game's rules to make it closer to pnp, I was surprised this wasn't brought up.

I'll be sure to keep an eye out for anything the community might put out that does this.

[johnlewismcleod]

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, or "stir the pot" unnecessarily, but I continue to be a bit miffed as to why the emphasis on "canon" and bringing an interactive 24/7 NWN into PnP comformity always seems to revolve around taking things away, rather than giving things that aren't.

I can only speak from my perspective, of course, but playing a rogue/bard with most of the class abilities being unsupported or absent, and I have seen CMW taken from 4 to 1, traps are taken away, and there is no way to earn XP or coin except by toting crates about, doing one-shot statics that any class can do, or chopping monsters up.

But nevermind that, let's halve the HP's for balance .

Don't get me wrong here, I come for the RP, and anything that enhances that I support completely. But I would think, given the emphasis placed on monster chopping for all classes, that diminishing HP's would have the opposite effect that Ithildur intends. Rather than make the fighters weaker, it would make the magic users, rogues, and bards so feeble they could hardly venture out of town.

[HEEGZ]

...I have seen CMW taken from 4 to 1...
But nevermind that, let's halve the HP's for balance ...

If you view the glass as half full, then dropping HPs really beefs up CMW as a healing option. For example, your 2HP mage could suddenly have 50% of his health instantly restored for the mere cost of one cantrip!


I totally agree with you though, some of the changes seem a bit overkill. I'm pretty split on them, but there are probably more custom changes I would rather have than not. I think things have been more balanced overall in NWN2 than they were in NWN1, but I am probably wrong. AL has made some good arguments for NWN2 in other threads, but I can't remember where atm.

[Ithildur]

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, or "stir the pot" unnecessarily, but I continue to be a bit miffed as to why the emphasis on "canon" and bringing an interactive 24/7 NWN into PnP comformity always seems to revolve around taking things away, rather than giving things that aren't.

The answer is rather straightforward imo. It's because the vanilla game implments a ruleset that effectively add various perks that are not found in the pnp version of DnD. They may have perfectly valid reasons such pursuing a game design that they feel will work well in a semi realtime format/3d solo oriented game, as well as appeal to a larger market audience. ALFA's take on the game is a bit different than the vanilla game, obviously; ruleset wise, the goal as I understand it has always been to try to emulate something as close to 3.0/3.5e pnp rules as practically possible.

It can also be said that many things are added as well by ALFA's changes, not merely taken away; there are various additional elements such as new spells from pnp, proper bleeding rules that gives your character a fighting chance to be revived alone or by another character, the ability to use cure potions on others, feats giving extra benefits that were missing in nwn2 but are present in pnp, etc. In summary, it's not true that all the changes are taking benefits away; there is give and take, but due to the fact that the vanilla game in general is a very 'generous', lenient, watered down (some might say dumbed down) version of pnp rules which overall makes life as a solo PC MUCH easier, yes, bringing things closer to pnp will mean many things are taken out.

As far as class balance, that's not my foremost concern but I stand by my assessment (having played low, mid, midhigh, and high lvl characters in nwn2 servers from the time the game first came out until I took a break a year or so ago) that with max HP rules warrior classes overall benefit significantly more than wizards. Basically it's simple math, the bigger your HD, the more you stand to gain from this rule; effectively you gain 4.5 HPs per lvl (an extra 45 HPs at lvl 10, 90 EXTRA HPs at lvl 20!), as a warrior, while the mage gains 1.5 HPs per lvl. Remember that spells get capped while HPs do not.

For reference, keep in mind that 90 HPs is more than what most famous and powerful NPCs in FR lore have per canon... a vanilla NWN2 warrior can have 90 HPs ABOVE what he'd normally have in pnp... There's one high lvl warrior canon NPC from the Silver Marches I know of who iirc has about 177 HPs at lvl 15 or so; this guys is supposed to be one heck of a tough bastard with CON 20 and I think barb lvls. But an average lvl 15 fighter PC in nwn2 with CON 14 will easily have 180 HPs. One can argue that we're RPing superheroes, not average joes, but that's never been alfa's approach as I understand it, that we all play uber super tough characters that make even the most durable canon NPCs look like wimps.

A workaround is to make the NPCs, even the canon NPC's, maxed out HPwise as well, but this kind of all around powerup for everyone is something I'd expect to see on more hack and slash type servers.

[johnlewismcleod]

All I can say to that, Ithildur, is:: "Roll up a bard/rogue and try to do what you did in PnP".

What you'll have is a singing scout.

Then get a DM to take half his HP's:

What you'll have is a corpse.

I'm not meaning to seem excessively negative, here. I love our server and appreciate all the hard work our team has done and continues to do for us. I'm just asking for balance in the pursuit of canon.

I like the world to be dangerous, life to be precious, and co-operative RP to be the best means for success. I came over from a world that had die rolled HP gain and loved it. Any of the ex-Hazer's here will verify that DMed events were terrifying "trials by fire" in which 1/4 to 1/2 the PC's involved typically died in most events.

Halving everyone's HP is not a means toward balance, though, IMO. PC's are never safe from death, but at higher levels can merely enjoy a bit of cushion against death by glitch/lag. DM's can "weed the garden" for balance whenever they choose, and it's our responsibility as players to happily roll up anew and continue to enjoy the game.

[Ithildur]

All I can say to that, Ithildur, is:: "Roll up a bard/rogue and try to do what you did in PnP".

What you'll have is a singing scout.

Then get a DM to take half his HP's:

What you'll have is a corpse.

I'm not meaning to seem excessively negative, here. I love our server and appreciate all the hard work our team has done and continues to do for us. I'm just asking for balance in the pursuit of canon.

I like the world to be dangerous, life to be precious, and co-operative RP to be the best means for success. I came over from a world that had die rolled HP gain and loved it. Any of the ex-Hazer's here will verify that DMed events were terrifying "trials by fire" in which 1/4 to 1/2 the PC's involved typically died in most events.

Halving everyone's HP is not a means toward balance, though, IMO. PC's are never safe from death, but at higher levels can merely enjoy a bit of cushion against death by glitch/lag. DM's can "weed the garden" for balance whenever they choose, and it's our responsibility as players to happily roll up anew and continue to enjoy the game.

I'm a bit puzzled.

ALFA1, and many other NWN1 permadeath servers, had many successful bards, rogues, bard/rogues, and even wizards with a rolled (and weighted) HP system. I really can't respond to a statement/claim that rolling up a bard/rogue etc is guaranteed death with rolled (not half, btw, rolled, to be precise NWN1 had max HPs til lvl 3 iirc and then rolled from there on out with results weighted so you tended to get decent rolls-not pure pnp rules, but much closer to the spirit and feel of it than NWN2) HPs - it's simply not true. Not sure exactly what it is that you're trying to do with the character that's so deadly. If you're trying to use him like a barb or fighter, then yes, I'd imagine it'd be short lived.

Let me also repeat: the rolled/NWN1 HP rules actually make the game better balanced for low HD classes like wizzies, bards, and rogues, and that the nwn2 system favors high HD classes like fighters.

This is in effect a VERY powerful feat; think about maximized spell feat for casters, but you get this 'maximized HPs' for free and there is no lvl cap.

This is perhaps my biggest turnoff about maxed HPs:

For reference, keep in mind that 90 HPs is more than what most famous and powerful NPCs in FR lore have per canon... a vanilla NWN2 warrior can have 90 HPs ABOVE what he'd normally have in pnp... There's one high lvl warrior canon NPC from the Silver Marches I know of who iirc has about 177 HPs at lvl 15 or so; this guys is supposed to be one heck of a tough bastard with CON 20 and I think barb lvls. But an average lvl 15 fighter PC in NWN2 with CON 14 will easily have 180 HPs. One can argue that we're RPing superheroes, not average joes, but that's never been alfa's approach as I understand it, that we all play uber super tough characters that make even the most durable canon NPCs look like wimps.

[johnlewismcleod]

Yep...I can see you're puzzled. You're missing my point entirely.

Roll up a bard/rogue, try to use him in ALFA like you would in PnP, and see if making HP per die roll is still a priority for you.

[bartleby]

What are some things that are missing for a rouge and or bard? That could be added?

Maybe should start a thead on each char class flushing out what exactly they have that they shouldnt and what is missing from what they should have who knows maybe some one would pick it up and do some coding to get it in if it was about... If nothing else would probably be good to keep track of things

[johnlewismcleod]

Excluding DM events: Nothing to steal, almost no locks to pick, no pockets to pick, cannot use or make traps, no traps to disarm, almost no use for Use Use Magic Devise (other than purchased scrolls). I could likely think of some more with effort, but in TSM rogues can use their dearly bought skills for only one thing: scouting. And for the rare opportunity found to use a skill, they get no XP or reward for using them. The only reward is for killing things which is not what rogues are configured for.

Mind affecting spells cannot be used on nuetral/freindlies, we've got TLK enabling bards to sing, but they cannot earn XP or coin from doing so. Bonus points to skills don't apply to checks for those skills IG, so using the "competence" feat only makes it "look" like the skill is increased.

Those are just a few off the top of my "not so very mechanics oriented" head, but bard and rogue classes are skill based and sacrifice much for that. Until we can introduce some use for these dearly bought skills, it seems the opposite of "balance" to take further from the classes IMO.

Like I said before, I love the server and appreciate all the work involved in getting the smallest improvement done, so please don't construe this as a complaint, but rather a slight over-reaction to the constant banter about "canon" I keep seeing.

[bartleby]

Excluding DM events: Nothing to steal, almost no locks to pick, no pockets to pick, cannot use or make traps, no traps to disarm, almost no use for Use Use Magic Devise (other than purchased scrolls). I could likely think of some more with effort, but in TSM rogues can use their dearly bought skills for only one thing: scouting. And for the rare opportunity found to use a skill, they get no XP or reward for using them. The only reward is for killing things which is not what rogues are configured for.

Stealing and picking pockets are kind of hard because of how complicated the action is i guess it might be possible to script up basic system to do that but it would probably have to be a server to server thing

Making and setting traps are ALFA policy i guess not much can be done there...

Disarming traps use magical device and picking locks all seem like they could play a larger role comparitively easily by having builders include them when making a dungeon area ... maybe scripting something to semi randomly place traps in a given area and or locked chests ...

There has to be a way of making mind effecting spells work on friendlies ...

But yeah can see what youre saying ... Need a lot of DM involvment ...

[jmecha]

NWN2 is not PnP in that it is not really turn based combat, when a fight breaks out in NWN2 rounds fly by in a matter of seconds and there is a lot of twitch skill involved. I like having the maxed HPs because of the twitch skill requirement in NWN2 Combat.