Battles?

[SirCobalt]

I think a greater question is implied here... why are they fighting? There both the good guys >_>

[danielmn]

Thought it was mentioned as such in the Silmarillion....been a while since I read it though...

[dergon darkhelm]

Completely stolen from another nerd forum:

The article below which is the meat of this particular post is the last thing I wrote and had posted to the Middle-earth d20 site at EN World. Again, it used 3.0 rules, but I don't think that matters too much in this case (Aragorn's "Wilderness Lore" would now be "Survival," that kind of thing).

Anyway:

Was Gandalf Only A Fifth Level Character?
In the March 1977 issue of Dragon Magazine (called then The Dragon) was an article by Bill Seligman entitled Gandalf Was Only A Fifth Level Magic-User. Seligman presented examples from the text of The Lord of the Rings to argue his case, and he did a pretty good job of it. Although D&D Third Edition/d20 is a bit of a different game than D&D circa 1977, much of his argument holds true for the latest edition of the game. Matter of fact, Seligman's article sounds very much like similar discussions going on today, especially on internet message boards.

Seligman asserts that Gandalf need not have been more then 5th level to do any of the things he did in the book. He also asserts that Sauron himself need not have been any higher than 7th or 8th level, possibly 12th at the highest. Although the argument regarding Sauron was, and is, not especially strong - Seligman's article concedes that some of the ranges for the divination spells Sauron used would have been beyond those in D&D, and Sauron's apparent control of Mount Doom's erupting is beyond even many Epic Level spells - I thought it might be interesting to include the Dark Lord in this exercise. One could rationalize, perhaps, that Sauron did not actually control Mount Doom, but could divine when it was going to erupt, and planned accordingly. In any event, I made Sauron 8th level, just to illustrate the point.

I decided to include the entire Fellowship in this, using Gandalf as the upper-level benchmark. In any cases where his spell list includes divine spells, they work the same, but are considered arcane spells for Gandalf. His spells were chosen according to Seligman's article and my own reading of Lord of the Rings, and should accomodate just about anything he did, especially if one considers that he could have altered the appearance of his spell effects. That is, the white bolts he apparently shoots at the Nazgul when rescuing Faramir could easily use the stats for Lightning Bolt (of course, the "bolts" he "shoots" may actually have been just the reflection of light off Narya as he turned the Nazgul as a cleric, but that's another article...)

By the way, if Mr. Seligman, or anyone who knows him, is reading this, I hope he drops us a line. It'd be interesting to hear what he thinks now.

Note: I didn't repeat information from any of the Core Books that weren't really necessary to repeat; virtual feats gained due to belonging to certain classes, detailed breakdown of racial qualities, etc.


Gandalf the Grey

Male Istar Wiz5; Medium; HD 5d4+10 (Wizard); hp 25; Init +1; Spd 30; AC 14; Atk +2 base melee, +3 base ranged; +4 (1d8+2, +2 Longsword); AL LG; SV Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +10; STR 11, DEX 12, CON 14, INT 16, WIS 18, CHA 14.

Skills: Alchemy (fireworks) +11, Concentration +10, Gather Information +3, Knowledge (Middle-earth arcana) +11, Knowledge (Middle-earth History) +11, Knowledge (Local (the Shire)) +8, Knowledge (Nobility (Free Peoples)) +8, Knowledge (Politics (Western Middle-earth) +7, Spellcraft +11

Feats: Iron Will, Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longsword, Scribe Scroll, Spell Mastery (3), Spell Mastery(3)

Possessions: Staff: as a staff of Fire (Charges: 50); Ring: Narya (Combines the effects of a ring of Elemental Resistance (Major), and a Necklace of prayer beads (blessing)); Robes act as a Cloak of resistance (+1), and also confer +3 AC; Glamdring (+2 longsword, glows blue in the presence of orcs); Traveler's Outfit

Spells Known:

0 -- Arcane Mark, Dancing Lights, Daze, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Disrupt Undead, Flare, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Open/Close, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost, Read Magic, Resistance

1st -- Burning Hands, Comprehend Languages, Detect Secret Doors, Hold Portal, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, True Strike, Ventriloquism

2nd -- Charm Person or Animal, Continual Flame, Detect Thoughts, Knock, Shatter

3rd -- Flame Arrow, Lightning Bolt

Spells Prepared on a day Gandalf expects trouble (Wiz 4/4/3/2):

0 - Detect Magic, Disrupt Undead, Flare, Read Magic

1st - Comprehend Languages, Detect Secret Doors, True Strike, Ventriloquism

2nd - Continual Flame, Detect Thoughts, Knock

3rd - Flame Arrow, Lightning Bolt.

So where are his spell books? He doesn't have, or need, any.


Aragorn

Male Human Rgr4: Medium Humanoid; HD 4d10+16 (Ranger); hp 39; Init +6; Spd 30; AC 12; Atk +5 base melee, +6 base ranged; AL LG; SV Fort +8, Ref +3, Will +6; STR 13, DEX 15, CON 18, INT 13, WIS 17, CHA 15.

Skills: Concentration +5, Heal +9, Intuit Direction +4, Knowledge (Middle-earth History) +2, Knowledge (nature) +5, Knowledge (Middle-earth Nobility) +2, Listen +7, Move Silently +5, Ride +4, Search +3, Speak Language (Quenya) +1, Spot +7, Wilderness Lore +9

Favored Enemy: Orc

Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Track

Spells Known (Rgr --/1):

1st - Alarm, Animal Friendship, Delay Poison, Detect Animals or Plants, Detect Snares and Pits, Entangle, Magic Fang, Pass without Trace, Read Magic, Resist Elements, Speak with Animals, Summon Nature's Ally I.

Spells Prepared (Rgr --/1):

1st - Pass without Trace.

Possessions: Ranger pin (Amulet of natural armor (+2)); Ring of Barahir (ring of Protection +2); shards of Narsil; Explorer's Outfit


Boromir

Ftr3: Medium Humanoid; HD 3d10+9 (Fighter); hp 29; Init +2; Spd 30; AC 12; Atk +6 base melee, +5 base ranged; +3 (1d10+3, Sword, bastard, Masterwork); AL LG; SV Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +1; STR 17, DEX 14, CON 16, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 13.

Skills: Climb +6, Jump +6, Ride +8, Swim +4

Feats: Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Sunder.

Possessions: Horn of Gondor; Sword, bastard, Masterwork; Shields: Shield, large, steel, Masterwork


Frodo Baggins

Hobbit Ari1: Small Humanoid ; HD 1d8+1 (Aristocrat); hp 8; Init +1; Spd 20; AC 12; Atk +0 base melee, +1 (+2 with thrown weapons) base ranged; SQ: Halfling traits (Ex); AL LG; SV Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +6; STR 9, DEX 12, CON 13, INT 12, WIS 13, CHA 12.

Skills: Climb +1, Diplomacy +3, Hide +5, Jump +1, Knowledge (arcana) +2, Knowledge (History of Middle Earth) +2, Knowledge (Local (the Shire)) +5, Knowledge (Shire Gentry) +2, Knowledge (Shire Politics) +2, Listen +4, Move Silently +4, Perform (Sing) +4, Sense Motive +3, Spot +2, Wilderness Lore +2

Feats: Iron Will

Possessions: Traveler's Outfit


Sam Gamgee

Male Hobbit Com1: Small Humanoid; HD 1d4+2 (Commoner); hp 7; Init +1; Spd 20; AC 12; Atk +0 base melee, +1 (+2 with thrown weapons) base ranged; SQ: Halfling traits (Ex); AL LG; SV Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +3; STR 10, DEX 12, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 11, CHA 10

Skills: Climb +2, Handle Animal +1, Hide +5, Jump +2, Listen +2, Move Silently +3, Profession (Cook) +3, Profession (Gardener) +3, Spot +2, Use Rope +2

Feats: Iron Will

Possessions: Cooking gear; Traveler's Outfit


Merry Brandybuck

Male Hobbit Ari1: Small Humanoid; HD 1d8+1 (Aristocrat); hp: 9; Init: +1; Spd 20; AC: 12; Atk +0 base melee, +1 (+2 with thrown weapons) base ranged; SQ: Halfling traits (Ex); AL LG; Saves: Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +4; STR 10, DEX 12, CON 13, INT 11, WIS 9, CHA 12

Skills: Climb +2, Gather Information +2, Hide +5, Listen +5, Move Silently +5, Spot +3, Wilderness Lore +2

Feats: Iron Will

Possessions: Traveler's Outfit


Pippin Took

Male Hobbit Ari1: Small Humanoid; HD 1d8+1 (Aristocrat); hp 9; Init: +1; Spd 20; AC: 12; Atk +0 base melee, +1 (+2 with thrown weapons) base ranged; SQ: Halfling Traits (Ex); AL LG; Saves: Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +3; STR 11, DEX 12, CON 13, INT 11, WIS 7, CHA 12

Skills: Climb +2, Gather Information +2, Hide +5, Listen +3, Move Silently +5, Spot +2, Wilderness Lore +0

Feats: Iron Will

Possessions: Traveler's Outfit


Gimli

Male Dwarf, Hill Ftr2: Medium Humanoid ; HD 2d10+6 (Fighter); hp 22; Init +0; Spd 15; AC 15; Atk +3 base melee, +2 base ranged; +4 (1d8+1, Battleaxe); SQ: Darkvision (Ex), Dwarven traits (Ex); AL LG; SV Fort +6, Ref +0, Will +0; STR 13, DEX 10, CON 16, INT 11, WIS 11, CHA 10.

Skills: Appraise +2, Craft (Blacksmithing) +0, Craft (Metalworking) +0, Craft (Stonecarving) +2, Craft (Stonemasonry) +2, Craft (Weaponsmithing) +0, Profession (Armorsmith) +2, Profession (Blacksmith) +2, Profession (Metalworker) +2, Profession (Miner) +5, Profession (Stonemason) +2, Profession (Weaponsmith) +2

Feats: Cleave, Power Attack, Weapon Focus: Battleaxe.

Possessions: Battleaxe; Chainmail; Flint and steel.


Legolas

Male Sindar Elf, Ftr2: Medium Humanoid ; HD 2d10+2 (Fighter); hp 18; Init +4; Spd 30; AC 14; Atk +2 base melee, +6 base ranged; +3/-6 (1d8, Longbow; 1d4, Dagger); SQ: Elven traits (Ex); AL CG; SV Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +0; STR 11, DEX 18, CON 12, INT 11, WIS 11, CHA 11

Skills: Handle Animal +2, Listen +4, Search +2, Spot +4

Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus: Longbow.

Possessions: Longbow; Dagger; Arrows (20); Explorer's outfit


Sauron

Male Maia (Fallen) Necromancer8; Medium; HD 8d4+32 (Wizard); HP: 58 Init: +3; Spd: 30; AC: 14; Atk +4 base melee, +4 base ranged; Special Abilities: Acid/Cold/Electrical/Fire Resistance 20, Immune to poison; AL: Lawful Evil; SV Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +11; STR:18, DEX:17, CON:18, INT:19, WIS:17, CHA:21

Skills: Alchemy +13, Concentration +15, Craft (Gemcutting) +15, Craft (Metalworking) +15, Intimidate +10, Knowledge (Arcana) +15, Knowledge (History) +15, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) +15, Scry +15, Spellcraft +15

Feats: Empower Spell, Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Forge Ring, Maximize Spell, Scribe Scroll

Possessions: Palantir (Crystal Ball with Telepathy); Cloak of Resistance +2

Spells Castable/Known
Wizard (0: 4+1, 1st: 5+1/ 2nd: 4+1; 3rd: 4+1; 4th: 3+1)

Known Spells:

O level: Arcane Mark, Dancing Lights, Daze, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Disrupt Undead, Flare, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Open/Close, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost, Read Magic, Resistance

1st level: Cause Fear, Charm Person, Chill Touch, Hypnotism, Identify, Mage Armor, Ray of Enfeeblement, Summon Monster I, True Strike

2nd level: Arcane Lock, Darkness, Detect Thoughts, Ghoul Touch, Knock, Locate Object, Scare, See Invisibility, Shatter, Spectral Hand, Summon Monster II

3rd level Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Dispel Magic, Halt Undead; Hold Person, Lightning Bolt, Nondetection, Slow, Summon Monster III, Vampiric Touch

4th level: Arcane Eye, Bestow Curse, Charm Monster, Confusion, Contagion, Detect Scrying, Emotion, Enervation, Fear, Locate Creature, Scrying, Shout, Summon Monster IV

Innate Spells: Darkness 3x/day; Desecrate; Poison 3x/day; Unholy Blight

Same Elminster V Gandalf on many D&D forums. Supposedly Gandalf is going to be stat blocked in some 4E sourcebook.

[ElCadaver]

Should we add that to aflas charter.... estabish gandalfs character sheet?

[Mayhem]

Elminster, he slept with Mystra, went to hell, is over 1000 years old, and Gandalf already died.

Correction: Elmister, because his player is slpeeing with the DM and thus gets twinked/rescued whenever his own stupidity/arrogance gets him into more trouble than he can handle.

At least, that's what reading "The Making of a Mage" led me to believe.

[ElCadaver]

Re Gandalf being 5th level,
I've never heard of a 5th lvl wizard killing a greater demon in hand to hand combat, or spontaneously resserecting after astral travelling.

[SirCobalt]

Re Gandalf being 5th level,
I've never heard of a 5th lvl wizard killing a greater demon in hand to hand combat, or spontaneously resserecting after astral travelling.

I concur... and with those stats, Elminster is like lvl 30-something, isn't he? See, Elminster wins again.

[ElCadaver]

My point is Gandalf DID those things, so I don't think D&D 'levels' even apply...

[Mulu]

Well, for starters IIRC, Galdalf in D&D terms is an outsider, and is not of the class "wizard," that being merely a translation of "Istari." To quote a much more knowledgeable geek, "The Istari were physical forms of Maiar spirits of Valinor. The Maiar are the lesser immortals of the Ainur race of beings. If the Valar were comparable to "gods" then the Maiar could be thought of as being similar to "angels"."

So any character build of Gandalf that claims he is of the class wizard is already horribly wrong. He would be a celestial with significant magical powers, in an assumed human form.

As an Istari he is immortal and has access to great powers, which he mostly chooses to not use. He said as much in TLOTR. He is bound by either covenant or agreement to not directly challenge Sauron, instead functioning as a messenger that enables others to do so.

Elminster, OTOH, is a twinked out joke, who on paper would almost certainly kick Gandalf's butt, since Galdalf's mortal body apparently can't handle the use of his full powers.

[ElCadaver]

So, if Gandalf CHOSE to use his full powers, could he then kick Elminsters butt?

[bartleby]

Yeah, I think Gandalf is inherently more powerful, no matter who he has slept with?

though, where is your reference that he IS a god, dnm?

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/m/maiar.html

Hes a Maia a lesser Valar kind of a lesser god cant be killed (at least his spirit cant) nor is he realy physical same as the barlog isnt.

Hehe wow wait like 20 mins to post and the thing explodes

[Mulu]

So, if Gandalf CHOSE to use his full powers, could he then kick Elminsters butt?

Given that he killed his mortal form fighting a Balor, and Elminster is presumably much more powerful than a Balor, even a Tolkien Balor, I suspect he wouldn't be able to pull it off, unless they went to the Astral Plane or something where he would no longer be inhibited by his physical form. Hard to say as Tolkien never really defined the upper limits of power for his pantheon.

At any rate, he's no 5th level wizard....

[Veilan]

At any rate, he's no 5th level wizard....

He is in ALFA.

No powergaming allowed.



More seriously, this leads to an inderesting sidethread: That in a PW, the exceptionality of player characters gets severely diminished. In the ordinary game format, you have one active party of ta'veren adventurers influencing the world. Not a bunch of them meeting in the inn every day. Everyone wants to be exceptional, but by everyone playing a pretty exceptional character, in the end, nobody is. Sweet, sweet irony!

[bartleby]

Wasnt the balrog a Maia that choose to manifest itself as such?

If it was it was categoricaly the same sort of being as Gandalf and not a good means of drawing a parallel ...

I dont think the worlds the characters live in aer close enough to be able to realy say which would be more powerfull ... one has magic built on singing and a sort of amorphic sence of magic and the other has more of a logical scientific sort of magic ... Tolkiens magic seems to be more a magic of being and inherent power where as magic in faerun seems to be more based on manipulation of the world around you.

[dergon darkhelm]

Wasnt the balrog a Maia that choose to manifest itself as such?

If it was it was categoricaly the same sort of being as Gandalf and not a good means of drawing a parallel ...

I dont think the worlds the characters live in aer close enough to be able to realy say which would be more powerfull ... one has magic built on singing and a sort of amorphic sence of magic and the other has more of a logical scientific sort of magic ... Tolkiens magic seems to be more a magic of being and inherent power where as magic in faerun seems to be more based on manipulation of the world around you.

Your reasoned philosophical ruminations are UNWELCOMED in OT, sir!

Choose an arbitrary opinion and run with it!