Life insurance

[Lokan]

Hello, now I know that I am fairly new to ALFA, but I think I have been sufficiently annoying enough to offer a suggestion. I have noticed at least one thread discussing permadeath, and its pros/cons. If there were ever another poll made asking to weather or not change the death system, I would vote no, but I do have a suggestion that might at least help alleviate some of the feelings of futility I have noticed in at least a couple of fellow players...Life insurance.

For just one low payment a month...oh, sorry

Anyway, what i'm actually thinking (of course this may have already been discussed in length and someone will send me a link to an extensive thread somewhere) is that players be allowed the practice of building up enough gold to purchase the Diamond needed for the raise dead spell and give it to the church or priest of their preference for "safe" keeping. Then in the event of their death, if their body is returned to the right church the priests could then proceed to raise the player to life. Of course all rules that apply to things like disintegration, acid damage, dismemberment, etc apply. This is all done, and approved by the DM of course.

I think it would do a number of things for ALFA. One, I don't think it steps on any of the major ideas in RP that ALFA is about, and follows the PnP rules that are already established, but allows an outlet that could possibly allow players to keep and play a PC for a longer period. Also, this wouldn't be an easy thing to accomplish generally, so the PC that could usually accomplish this would be a lower-mid to mid level. This is just the right amount of time to "save" a fairly well established PC.

Of course another hurdle would be to actually get the players body to the proper church, yet another reason to be involved in a group or faction. However, there could also be an Rped system for those "lone wolf" players such as a secret network. This could include allowing players to Rp a way to have "henchmen" or animal friends, or faithful familiars that would search out their masters bodies and deliver them to the chosen priest. I wouldn't make it an automatic thing. There should be no PMs to the DM.."i just died. Can you just have my brother find my body and rezz me please". it should be planned in advance between the player and DM at least and make sense for the PC, and maybe even partially Rped ingame, if necessary; whatever is easiest for everyone.

Something like this would take away from the importance of the cleric PC somewhat. It address that I think it could be allowed that the PC clerics higher level resurrection spell either be used without any diamond component or at least a gem of lesser cost. That would give a cleric of such stature his/her proper importance.

I think this could be a way to keep and develop more interesting PCs, and provide a system of RP goals that would give players at least a chance to avoid the inevitable meaningless death.

[hollyfant]

Hello, now I know that I am fairly new to ALFA, but I think I have been sufficiently annoying enough to offer a suggestion.

Never be afraid to speak up, we're rude to everybody equally around here.

There are a few problems with your proposed scheme that I can think of, some of which you already mentioned.

• While Baldur's Gate and Silverymoon both are a "metropolis", the teams seem reluctant to put high level priest NPCs in their modules. As I recall, in TSM at least there isn't a single NPC who can bring the dead back.
• I'm not sure if anybody's sure if the spell is supposed to requite any diamonds in ALFA. Identify doesn't require its 100gp pearl either, for instance.
• It might cause PCs to start saving up for their insurance, and end up dead because they couldn't afford the level-appropriate gear.
• It would make the absence of scrying, teleporting and contingency spells all the more poignant.
• It widens the gap between the haves and the have-nots.
• The lessened need to suck up to PC clerics would also not be a good thing. Anyone who gets to that level, has earned respect. Both IC and OOC.

[Rotku]

I believe a system like this was tried in North Cromyr years ago. Some loved it, some hated it. I'm indifferent.

[Lokan]

There are a few problems with your proposed scheme that I can think of, some of which you already mentioned.

• While Baldur's Gate and Silverymoon both are a "metropolis", the teams seem reluctant to put high level priest NPCs in their modules. As I recall, in TSM at least there isn't a single NPC who can bring the dead back.
• I'm not sure if anybody's sure if the spell is supposed to requite any diamonds in ALFA.
  Identify doesn't require its 100gp pearl either, for instance.
• It might cause PCs to start saving up for their insurance, and end up dead because they couldn't afford the level-appropriate gear.
• It would make the absence of scrying, teleporting and contingency spells all the more poignant.
• It widens the gap between the haves and the have-nots.
• The lessened need to suck up to PC clerics would also not be a good thing. Anyone who gets to that level, has earned respect. Both IC and OOC.

Thank you Hollyfant,

I must admit I don't know the average level of characters on ALFA, but I think that is what would be in question here. Right now in order to get a PC raised from the dead we would have to have a PC cleric of sufficient level, maybe a diamond (or maybe not), have that PC be logged on (unless you want to wait maybe a few hours or days to get back in-game..which is fine for me, but maybe not everyone), your body to be found and/or brought back to an area that cleric might find you, and then have the cleric have IC reasons to raise you, and lastly the DM's ok. All of which is very good, and completely fits with hard core RP and give the DMs great control over their population. But I think there could be other options that could be made available to players, if not for anything else than to give hope, and the feeling of a game with options on how to play. It also creates RP choices. Do i buy the +1 shield or try to save for a diamond? (if you think that the cost of the diamond is too high and would prevent people from buying gear..make the diamond a bit cheaper). There can always be ways to balance your campaign, the trick is to avoid things that take the balancing away from the DM/Admin.

The bottom line of the question is where do you want the average PC level? is it 1-6 or 6-12? I think that what i suggest is more of a RP practice than a game system (unless you choose to build in coding for things like "banking" the diamond, paying a henchman, etc).

Lastly, what is the concern for putting high level NPCs in the game?

One could put in place another practice that gives back to the greatness of a high level PC cleric. For instance as the PC cleric becomes more powerful they either take over the local church (thus making them in a sense a part time NPC...when they are not logged on they may be the one providing the powers resurrection) OR their work has increased the wealth and popularity of the church, and brings higher level clerics around. Basically, the DM could control the ability to raise dead by keeping track of the religiousness that the PCs RP. The more you support your local cleric ,and local church the more things it is able to do. If you have a player base that isn't paying attention to its religions then those that could raise the dead wont be around. Maybe more arcane services are being offered? Basically, the DM could get a feel about what the player base is contributing to the culture and modify what is available based on what their day to day practices are?

ok, i'm ranting....sorry. Its all just an idea. I should probably kill that good idea fairy now .

[danielmn]

Material component for raise dead....

5,000 gp worth of diamonds. That's a hefty price tag for raise dead....I truely hope that the current two raise deads kept the material component in mind.

[oldgrayrogue]

Please continue to post ideas Lokan. That said, the life insurance idea seems a bit OOC to me. How many adventurers would contemplate the possibility of their own death enough to save for a diamond, make friends with the appropriate cleric etc? I suppose an NPC cleric could "advertise" raise dead services but i think that is a bit OOC as well. I prefer a rez to be a totally IC affair. And from an IC perspective raising a dead comrade has a lot more to do IC with those left behind to grieve than with the adventurer who dies. OOC it is quite different obviously which is why I think this is a bit too OOC in my opinion. The dead PC may enjoy being with their god you know

[Blindhamsterman]

easiest way to do this... simply save 5k gold on your character, then if you do die and a friend finds you... well they can use your gold to raise you if they want, or not if they don't .

if someone else finds you, well it's their lucky day no?

[johnlewismcleod]

I prefer a rez to be a totally IC affair. And from an IC perspective raising a dead comrade has a lot more to do IC with those left behind to grieve than with the adventurer who dies.

Exactly...I'm with OGR on this 100%...and I will go one step further: If I personally encounter a rez attempt orchestrated by the player of the dead PC, don't expect any help from me on it.

[Rotku]

The bottom line of the question is where do you want the average PC level? is it 1-6 or 6-12? I think that what i suggest is more of a RP practice than a game system (unless you choose to build in coding for things like "banking" the diamond, paying a henchman, etc).

If I had to pick an average level, it would be level 4, with a roof at level 8.

Lastly, what is the concern for putting high level NPCs in the game?

There are high level NPCs in game. I think I can name one in BG and a few in TSM who can preform a raise.

[jmecha]

5,000 gp worth of diamonds......that is not a small number.

[danielmn]

Considering I've yet to see any form of diamond IG.....

Yes it is.....

[Lokan]

The bottom line of the question is where do you want the average PC level? is it 1-6 or 6-12? I think that what i suggest is more of a RP practice than a game system (unless you choose to build in coding for things like "banking" the diamond, paying a henchman, etc).

If I had to pick an average level, it would be level 4, with a roof at level 8.

Ok, so you have it worked out to be on average that the players spend more time with lower level PCs rather than mid-ranged PCs. Now I'm just fishing for information, so I'm starting to feel that this is turning out to be a bad noob post.

I guess what I'm talking about treads on both the IC and the OOC. Would an adventurer make a plan to help himself live in the eventuality that he might die? Yep. I thought of it. He lives in constant danger, and if he has the knowledge that it may be possible to live again if he died, he might look into what it takes to make it happen. I would venture to guess in a world like this there might be alot of people that might try, but not succeed. Otherwise how would you explain Liches? ...knowledge of the possibility to live longer combined with the effort to prolong their own power. We could argue IC forever, and both of us would be right. We all see a world that includes magic (making everything possible) differently, and can interpret the rules of magic as differently as well. But either way...I really am still learning the IC/OOC norms of the group here. I've run the idea and the changes it might cause for through my head. Everything, is hard to balance.

Too much death breeds not enough heroics or frustrated players or too many conversations that start with "What brings you to our fair city", too many heroics that are sparked by players not afraid to die makes each accomplishment less exciting, raise someone from the dead too many times, makes the event bland.

My personal feelings are to put the fate of the character in the hands of the player and trust them to play nice. Do they come back from the dead? If they see fit, let them... but that always gets messy too. The competition side of human nature drives nearly every player to be just a little better than the others, no matter how good the RPer he or she is. So, basically, thank you for all your hard work, I appreciate the game I you all have allowed me to be a part of. Ill crawl back into my newness, and watch what happens...until my good idea fairy starts jumping up and down on my head again.

[Rotku]

Ok, so you have it worked out to be on average that the players spend more time with lower level PCs rather than mid-ranged PCs. Now I'm just fishing for information, so I'm starting to feel that this is turning out to be a bad noob post

No and no.

No, that's not the average. That's just my wish. If I could get my way we'd slow the level rate down a fair amount (after 1) and make the max level 8. But I know I'll never get my way, so just tend to add these comments in from the side line to confuse poor people like you

And no, it's not a bad noob post. Like I mentioned before, back in our NWN1 days there was a DM team who did something just like this - so clearly you're' not the only one who feels this way.

As for me, I think PC deaths/retirements are good - it helps keep things fresh. If anything, we need to increase the rate of high level PC deaths. As a DM, I just don't find things as fun when dealing with high level, well-established PCs - much prefer the low-to-mid level range. And as a player I'm the same. I get bored with PCs too quickly to stick with one into the high levels. You should see the DM Hit list we've got in the DM forums - listed all PCs who make it above a certain point and every time a DM manages to knock one of them off, they get an extra little star next to their name.

Oh, and I'll tell you, as Player Admin, the majority of trouble I've had to deal with has come from cases where people have become too attached to their PCs.

[Blindhamsterman]

'Oh, and I'll tell you, as Player Admin, the majority of trouble I've had to deal with has come from cases where people have become too attached to their PCs.'

True I'd believe, however I think it's totally understandable that people do get attached to a PC, while for some people they get bored quickly, others do not, I for one want a character that is well established, it helps me feel like a part of the world that ALFA has built. Also I for one believe it takes time to really build the personality of a character, mainly because it's how you react to the events that happen that builds them. Therefore it can be hard when you have to start all over. I do believe that most of the time players become more cautious once they reach a certain point, I think again that makes the person more believable. Lets face it in Real life would you go about attacking every bad person or wild creature you met? No? Thought not.

The idea of characters making contingencies to counteract the event of their death in the high magic fantasy world that is Faerun does not seem OOC to me, If in real life I could save money so that if I died I could be brought back to life... I'm pretty sure I would. Of course this would depend on the character in question and their outlook to life, the brash over confident ones probably would not think of it. The thoughtful more cautious ones I'd guess might.

Still as Rotku and many others have said, I do think the event of a character being brought back to life has to be handled in an IC way. It is afterall a major event! And also like some have also said, there are bound to be times where a character would not want to be brought back due to being happy with death. My question to that is, can someone be brought back against their will (like in buffy?)


As I've already suggested, if you really want to be brought back, try having enough coin on your person? It is also sensible to be part of a group as that will improve your chances infinitely (often due to the group not wanting you dead, not just the fact there is a greater chance of the resources being available to fund it). Biggest advice of all though would be this: Don't solo and don't travel in dangerous areas without a) healing b) a fair few levels under every characters belt. (advice given to me by our very own Mr D, when i moaned about getting killed before current character)

[Brokenbone]

"Insurance" of different kinds is something the always-questionable Greenwood describes as available in the highly commercial (Venice-like?) atmosphere of Sembia. Some items might be completely prepaid, more expensive items might be on the basis of some kind of funky financial instrument where maybe some is prepaid, and the rest will come from your holdings, if you have any (and if you do not, doubt the temple will hold up their end of the bargain either). You may need trustworthy associates though with knowledge of your arrangements to even take advantage of this though.

Anyhow, an excerpt from a favourite old Realmslore article (used to be posted in the NWN1 Sembia forum) is below in case anyone wonders if "insurance" just is too modern or OOC a concept. Not saying BG or Silverymoon is necessarily as trade & legalese conscious as Sembia, but hey.

Melvos Hammerstars is more level-headed than most Sembian city-dwellers (who soon grow paranoid that "everyone's out to get them" or they "missed top coin" on a hot new scheme or opportunity, and mustn't fall behind on the next one), but the cutthroat nature of Sembian life has made him wary enough to take out backers surety and post healing bonds.

Backers are folk sworn to conduct or wind up your affairs in accordance with your written instructions (or, failing that, best business practices) in the event of your death, sudden mysterious absence, or known kidnapping or illness. A surety is a written contract (we might say insurance) binding the backers to act. Sureties are filed (for a 4-sp fee) with Sembian authorities, who diligently watch the backers to ensure they perform.

Healing bonds (commonly known as "healshields") are prepayments with local temples for the casting of spells on the bond purchaser or designate for healing, poison- and disease-quelling, or raising from the dead. Most Sembians pay the entire sum for lesser spells, and post deed-claims with the temples for the more expensive magics.

A deed-claim is a written agreement to pay a set sum within so many days after a service is rendered, or the service renderer is entitled to take possession of a property (often a second city tallhouse, rented out to sitting tenants) in lieu of monetary payment. Sembian authorities take a very dim view of persons who try to refuse or become unavailable to receive payment, so as to instead seize a property they want.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rl/20050330a