Speeds and armor

[SwordSaintMusashi]

50% reduced movement speed is a much bigger downside than pen and paper's reduction for being in heavy armor. In pen and paper, its only a -10 feet penalty, and you cannot run at x4. You can still run at x3.

So short bursts of speed are possible, but not long maintained. The original idea of the -5% to medium armor and -10% to heavy armor would be closer than a massive -50%.

[Spider Jones]

Speed reduction would be FAR nastier in ALFA than in PnP. Just as would having monsters faster than PC speed. Peoples reaction times are slower, they are not paused round by round and asked their actions. They cannot full run x5 speed for their lives. They cannot even legally drink invisibility potions currently.

Just smack people who run all day in full plate, no tweaks necessary. Your light armor allows you to use more Dex bonus, gives you less armor check penalty, et cetera. Also it costs much much less. It's got its upsides already.

[Veilan]

50% reduced movement speed

Hm, really? You run 100% of the time? Because if you do, then it really is a 50% reduction. If you run 10% of all your movement while in armour... probably a more realistic estimate... well, then it would be a 50% reduction on 10% of your movement, which means a 5% reduction... but of course, often enough, it's those times that you do run that count, no? .

SJ raises a valid point about lethality, though. Still, by the time you can afford heavy armour, you are probably in a position where you can make an educated choice about whether you want the mobility or not.

What I always like are choices, tactical decisions that matter. Fighter-types often carry around a selection of arms to use the appropriate one for the situation, why not add an element of tactics with armour as well? It's just a little boring that currently it's a no brainer - the vast majority of paladins, clerics, fighters et al. have dexterity 12 and carry a full plate, no matter what.

Funnily enough, my own character usually is encumbered when I swap to a full plate without dumping other armour in storage first, and I've actually been in a couple of fights where I preferred it anyway despite not being able to run.

We should probably try to see it as a tactical enrichment, not "omigod my already relatively far more powerful armour choice gets a little less universally superior". We already grant a fair bump in wealth allowance to take into account that characters in ALFA usually not get the one "killer" gear setup perfect for their class in every situation, so I think philosophically, BB's proposal would follow nicely in that line of thought.

I personally would appreciate it if armour choices became a little more tactical and meaningful. Cookie cutter is cool power-wise, but if there's no drawback whatsoever it's just boring. Heavy armour users probably could make a lot of roleplay use out of it, probably being the ones with the tactical expertise to make the calls and offer advise.

This proposal likely won't garner a majority of popular support since ALFA favours heavy armour users so... heavily, but it's still very intriguing and interesting - admittedly, I myself have to look past my character's own interest to see that it might be a systematic enrichment.

0.02€,

[Brokenbone]

It wasn't much of a "proposal" really, but more a case of saying there's certain states PCs can get into by choice. Being forced to virtually always WALK in heavy armor would kind of clearly limit the role of that kind of character, perhaps opening up viable roles for people who do wish to "zip around" in combat, taking things like spring attack and whatnot so they can run around skirmishing / helping.

It would be possible I should imagine to figure out if little "run in this direction" kind of pseudo-feats could work (like the old "Charge" example I gave). Even if it was a feat that let you run for 5 seconds every time you stabbed the quickslotted "OMG RUN" button, it'd be clumsier than the natural light armored skirmishers, and might remind the user "this is not how heavy infantry behave."

[Veilan]

It wasn't much of a "proposal" really, but more a case of saying there's certain states PCs can get into by choice. Being forced to virtually always WALK in heavy armor would kind of clearly limit the role of that kind of character, perhaps opening up viable roles for people who do wish to "zip around" in combat, taking things like spring attack and whatnot so they can run around skirmishing / helping.

The idea about tactical versatility and real tactical choices it what seduced me about your idea. Suddenly there's more roles and tactics to combat than "everyone with heavy armour smashes through the enemy".

Of course, it would apply to that hobgoblin warband you're facing, too... mostly relevant with a DM I guess, since most mobs you see don't wear heavy armour, and as static spawns probably would need a decent ranged weapon to not be as kitable... but it'd be a lot of fun, and has great potential.

[Regalis]

As an aside, it should be possible to add a custom interface... or maybe use PC Tools buttons, to allow PCs to modify their base movement rate, as would be legal.

That is to say, for Barbs to drop down to the rest of the group or people to drop down to accommodate short ones or tanks.

If you were going to code the rest of the business with armor and races, it would be fairly painless to take this additional step.

[hollyfant]

As an aside, it should be possible to add a custom interface... or maybe use PC Tools buttons, to allow PCs to modify their base movement rate, as would be legal.

I love it.

I also like the idea of disallowing running in heavy armour (or in full plate anyway - nobody ever uses splint or half-plate ). It's a severe penalty, but let's not forget that the plate armours in NWN get a massive advantage over those in PnP: you don't need help to put them on.

[I-KP]

I also like the idea of disallowing running in heavy armour (or in full plate anyway - nobody ever uses splint or half-plate ).

Having worn/used full body plate armour at reenactment events I can tell you that running and other athletic activities aren't seriously impeded; I can run almost as fast with as without in short bursts. Restricted range of movement is another DnD misunderstanding. The problem comes with not being able to dump heat as readily as one might in lighter armour due to the arming jack/gambeson worn underneath and lack of ventilation, which does eat away at your endurance. Having said that, I've worn simple padded hauberks w/ gambie that tired me out faster than any full body plate suit did.

Tourny armour is a different matter altogether but you're not expected to walk around in that stuff for long (designed for mounted combat).

I accept that DnD is about as far removed from reality as can be imagined. Suffice to say I could go on for a while listing all of the inaccuracies ...but won't.

[Happycrow]

Yeah. I "Wax Eloquent" on the subject regularly, though my own experience is mostly in East-Central European armors that are more flexible.

Short-duration runs should be entirely possible. The dex skill penalties, definitely realistic. But then you get the AC vs DR thing going...

[hollyfant]

It's no secret D&D made a mess of its armour system but I don't think we should try to rectify that - it's just too much of a bother.

I'm no fan of nerfs, but it's no secret the full plate melee-er is king of ALFA. If a simple, straightforward and reasonable penalty can be applied to heavy armours (or just to the heaviest one) then I'm for it. But let's not try too hard.

(I'd still like to be able to slow my character down though, and go for a stroll at actual strolling speed.)

[Brokenbone]

It's no secret D&D made a mess of its armour system but I don't think we should try to rectify that - it's just too much of a bother.

I'm no fan of nerfs, but it's no secret the full plate melee-er is king of ALFA. If a simple, straightforward and reasonable penalty can be applied to heavy armours (or just to the heaviest one) then I'm for it. But let's not try too hard.

(I'd still like to be able to slow my character down though, and go for a stroll at actual strolling speed.)

On the "easy sounding" point about grouping with your party, couldn't a no-drop widgety thing be given to barbs and monks that does a "subtract feat #xyz" and "add feat xyz" (whatever # refers to the barb bonus speed or monk bonus speed)? I mean, whenever anything can done by console, it can sure be done by script. Quickslot it so you remember to turn your speed back on whenever you feel like it (such as anytime you feel a little endangered)?

There's no easy answer to the heavy armor business. Full plate is the top drawer armor that anyone who can wear it, tends to gravitate towards. Imagine putting splint mail +2 in a treasure horde? Tear-worthy, people would be asking if a smith could fit it out with additional parts and still keep the +2, upgrading it to full plate. NWN1, anyone who could afford it tended to want full plate and a tower shield, I'd imagine the tower shield getting slightly "worse" in NWN2 turned a lot of people off of it, somehow "souring" full plate (even if nowhere near as bad as PnP would have it in terms of move rate). It' just jarring though to say "move rate is the problem... let's therefore apply an attack malus" or something like that.

[Happycrow]

Which is kinda weird, actually... splint armor is a great heavy armor for people who aren't natural acrobats.

Agreed on fixing armor. I don't think any shot at realism should be done by a PW unless they were planning to go seriously custom. If you guys ever DID decide to do that, I-KP and I can probably come up with an extensive and sexy list of stuff for you, though.

[I-KP]

I am no expert by any stretch.

Heavy metal lamellar armour (like most central/eastern styles) is probably the best I've worn: offers roughly the same amount of protection as plate; is dead easy to repair; it breathes better; affords pretty much unrestricted range of movement; if you have a strong back you can easily forget you're wearing it; and it's almost silent when worn with the proper arming jack. Lovely stuff.

[Happycrow]

I'm an expert. But that doesn't mean I'm an expert scripter who's a god of balancing out complex game systems.

[I-KP]

I'm an expert.