Surprise Spawns

[Zelknolf]

A response to a few things:

"high level characters will get phat lewt"
int nHD = GetHitDice(oLooter);
if(nHD > TOO_FRIGGIN_HIGH)
{
(not a lot of loot)
}
else if(nHD > REASONABLE_FOR_CHALLENGE)
{
(loot!)
}
else
{
(how the hell did you manage to survive? more loot!)
}

Also "wealthy people can use this to get wealthier"
int nGold = (complex while loop that checks the value of PC's carried stuff and pChests)
if(nGold > TOO_FRIGGIN_WEALTHY)
{
(not a lot of loot)
}
else if(nGold > REASONABLE_FOR_LEVEL)
{
(loot)
}
else
{
(we'd like to to be less poor. more loot)
}

Could even configure both, where it's a combination of "How easily should you have beaten this encounter?" and "How much lewt do you already have?" if we felt so inclined.

Also:
Scripts can not be made on the fly, but scripts can be made to respond to a DM's configuration. If you'd like to be able to spawn NPCs who will initiate conversation and respond based on the PC's actions, I can do that.

If you'd like these conversations to give PCs opportunities to gauge the power of the NPCs (say... sense motive? spot? knowledge [whatevs - maybe it's a bear and the conversation involves very little actual talking]? Wisdom checks? Intelligence checks?) I can script that.

If you'd like these NPCs to store stuff that they rob from PCs, I can script that! (Persistently, if you'd like!)

If you'd like these NPCs to use nonlethal force, I can script that! I could probably even spawn little prison cell esque thingies to put them in, for later rescue. That's iffier. It requires mathing in NWScript, and might require that a DM point to a spot and say "They keep PCs here, if they catch PCs."

If you'd like these NPCs to change what level they are based on the first PCs they see, I can script that!

And I can make widgets and wands to toggle all of those things on the fly. Could give you a little wand that says "This NPC will usually kill you, but click here to make him take prisoners this time." In "widget per category" or "conversation tree to configure all at once," depending on your own preferences, even. Technically, all of the scripting is done before hand, but that doesn't necessarily mean that everything we want to happen has to be decided before loading the mod.

[dirsa]

i honestly don't understand much of the whining about a dm offering to add extra dynamic content... say thanks and smile!

thanks.

[Mirabai]

Zelk just short-circuited my brain.

[Swift]

I think you and I mogonk simply disagree fundamentally, and that's ok, it's a great strength of ALFA that people with varied ideas can operate within the same framework together.

To me, fighting some random NPCs is fun, I always take along good companions and there is RP throughout, and I enjoy that, RP under tension. I simply do not see enough DM time right now for my liking, and I know that I can enjoy the game without a DM because I do so very often, this would simply enhance my game until there is more DM time.

I do not feel the need to justify what I want, I think this is a good idea, it would make the game more fun for me, that's the only reason I have, I know I can make these random encounters into fun little stories with just the characters I have with me, we can plan attacks, think about strategies, RP through it all.

I'm sorry we do not agree, but this isn't so much a debate as it is two sides loudly speaking their minds. It is also, despite the poll, not a democratic choice, it will be done, or not, at the DMs pleasure.

I see the potential fun, for me, as vastly outweighing any potential negatives, which to me, are negligible. I'll comment no further, I would like to see this in game, and I do not see a continued debate doing anything positive,

This. Just because there is no DM around does not mean you have to stop RPing. Something random setup by a DM with some small amount of loot is a) fun and b) gives you something else to talk about in the tavern in the downtime between DM events.

Also, for those of you who are against this, you do understand that DMs have had the liberty to do this since approximately the beginning of time? We have had DMs in the past that have done it without telling anyone other than fellow DMs. Often they were never found, sometimes they were. Hell, I remember stumbling into these now and again back on the NWN1 servers.

Also, for those worried about these being farmable by the same high level characters all the time, the servers generate very detailed logs that we as DMs can search quite easily through the website, so we could easily check to see who is picking the loot or getting XP from the kills to track suspicious activity and I, as a DM, would always take note of what loot I have placed so that I can find it in the logs the next day.

Edit: Hamster, can you make a single use trigger that will let me specify in game some text for it to say? I think it would be great to be able to put down a trigger that would give players some kind of idea what they might be walking into.

[Zelknolf]

Edit: Hamster, can you make a single use trigger that will let me specify in game some text for it to say? I think it would be great to be able to put down a trigger that would give players some kind of idea what they might be walking into.

Well, I'm not Hamster but...

This is possible, yes, and would be in the scope of the laundry list of "I can script all of this shizzle." if such were taken up. Trigger sizes on dynamically-created triggers are habitually difficult, though, so they might have to be placed at choke points.

One could also feasibly set up a system that threw gather info on login to see what the PCs "found out about current events" off camera. After all, if there were bandits kidnapping and robbing people on the road, people would talk, and those bards who have +retarded to gather info should get to use it.

[Blindhamsterman]

well.... Zelk certainly has some interesting ideas!

[Brokenbone]

Doomsday scenarios see mook encounters with a treasure chest "seeded" with a bunch of +5 items. I don't think I hear of any DMs saying they'd do that.

Most DMs are typically happy to accept logs and/or other kinds of other "after action reports" for people with whom they game. It's always been DM license to tool OOC items to say "BUNCH OF STUFF TO TURN INTO DM JOE BLOW WITH A STORY OF HOW YOU GOT EM", not that I've seen that happen too often, but it would be a way to ensure you're rewarding appropriate to challenge, much as if you'd been running an hour or two's game.

If you find that your mook goblin encounter fell out like one lowbie seeing them, scouting them, returning to a tavern, inciting a mob of likemindeds to come for an organized investigation and ultimately, strike, all the associated deployment RP about that, and coming home to clap each other on the back and buy rounds at the bar, that yields a bunch of happy people and possibly a happy DM, that their WORK of seeding the woods / wilds paid off.

If the mook goblin encounter is stomped in thirty or forty seconds by one guy who spits off a wand of fireballs from a handy cliff top, invulnerable to counterattack, the OOC slip of paper he redeems with DM Joe Blow might be worth "STINKY GOBLIN UNDERTHINGS", i.e., non-challenging encounter that took a minute to resolve does, under our standards, attract different rewards than multiple hours of good roleplay, problem solving, etc. The reward is not necessarily joke items, but it's a pretty low gold output, to be sure.

Again, that's just with "the tools at hand", if there's exotic scriptable stuff that people like Zelknolf volunteers, that's all gravy later. Example, put an NPC in the pallette whose faction is pretty much friendly to everyone, whose name is "TIED UP MAIDEN", and who only has a line or two of dialogue like, "Are you here to rescue me?", with like a Yes to despawn her or make her run ten feet in a random direction and vanish (you can pretend she followed you to a safe town, rather than some kind of autofollow doggie boringness) and spawn a "rescued tied up maiden" note in your inventory, or a No and nothing happens. Yeah if you sneak through the goblins who surround her, your initiating dialogue destealths you and all hell breaks loose, but if you kill them all off, well, go talk to her safely.

Or fireball the camp and her in it, your call. Same with saying "No" to rescuing her, then stabbing her and maybe spawning a "Killed tied up maiden" note... yes, you can PM the DM saying not only did you kill her, you threatened her, taunted her, sacrificed her to your dark god, did horrible non-PG 13 things to her, whatever.

Same goes for "VERY COWARDLY NONCOMBATANT BANDIT" spawning in stealth among his bandit friends, with a friendly to all faction and boo-hoo don't kill me dialogue, with like "Take Prisoner" / "Extort loot-related information (Intimidate roll)" / "Kill" / "Set Free", spawning various notes of "Took a prisoner" / "Got some loot secrets", etc.

Again though, that's slightly exotic stuff, from the perspective of "it ain't scripted and in anyone's toolbox." *shrugs*

Decorating the wilds is normal DM prerogative, putting a "reasonable" within standards amount of $ in a chest etc. is too (note we don't go by straight PnP CR#s for treasure, as you never know when a high level will stumble across goblins, which doesn't happen in PnP except as part of intentional mook encounters). So would the DM asking "who killed my Blackteeth encounter", and as part of an exchange, asking how carefully the camp was searched (roll some d20 skill checks in DM presence, or maybe take 20s if they sat around awhile with no danger any longer). So as well is checking logs, in case players out there are farming mercilessly, and knowing the "loot tokens" (maybe undroppable so they don't get traded to lowbies, also detectable via logs) they get are really just a sign of guilt, ha ha.

[davidcurtisjr]

A response to a few things:

"high level characters will get phat lewt"
int nHD = GetHitDice(oLooter);
if(nHD > TOO_FRIGGIN_HIGH)
{
(not a lot of loot)
}
else if(nHD > REASONABLE_FOR_CHALLENGE)
{
(loot!)
}
else
{
(how the hell did you manage to survive? more loot!)
}

Also "wealthy people can use this to get wealthier"
int nGold = (complex while loop that checks the value of PC's carried stuff and pChests)
if(nGold > TOO_FRIGGIN_WEALTHY)
{
(not a lot of loot)
}
else if(nGold > REASONABLE_FOR_LEVEL)
{
(loot)
}
else
{
(we'd like to to be less poor. more loot)
}

I think this would be hard to do based on travel with other pc's and distribution of wealth among a group of pc's. Most pc's if they travel... travel in such groups. (Myself excluded)

A suggestion would be income script based on factional affiliations(Descriptive script only)/time played (much like xp)/(And overall wealth guidelines)
(i.e. wealth gained is income incremental, i.e wealth loss is adjusted based on some factional need. *buildings, donations, tithes, obligation* Adjusting gross excesses to average or midrange. The player could even refuse the obligation but would lose incremental income and be subject to some dm interaction based on thier refusal to abide by thier factions demands.)

The script for this would be rather simple and adjusted on log in much like xp.
A simple message could account for all these:
Your work of late has been rewarded by ----gp.((Below wealth guideline))
There has been little profit in your efforts of late. No gold has been forthcoming. The coffers of late have been bare. (Close to or at set wealth guideline)
A tax has been levied on you by the local Lord. A missive has been ordering you to pay ___gp to this Lord or face the consequences. ((Find the nearest Lord and deposit set amount.))

In this way wealth could be gained gradually with no uber drops that might likely be scooped up by another player inadvertently

[dirsa]

i think this all is a lot of talk about nothing... let me illustrate.

1 - the lowly level 1 rogue noticed the goblin camp, gathered a bunch of other lowly fighting men, investigated, fought, and came out victorious with loot - a masterwork sword. all present gained xp from fighting, and talked for next hour on how to divy up the sword, which was the equivalent of everyones wet dream, and finally came up with some solution...

2 - bob the wizard of doom wandered upon the same goblin camp instead. he scoffed, and fired of a fireball followed by dire boar. goblins were decimated in seconds, however.... guess what? he didn't get any xp whatsoever, because well... because he doesn't get xp from goblins any more... then he found the sword, which was the treasure of group in scenario 1, looked at it, checked the edge and said - damn... i wasted a fireball spell for a dull knife? this is almost rusted! because of his level, the reward which was perceived as something grand by low levels had absolutely no value for him... furthermore, if he actually did use a scroll or wand.. he probably ended up loosing gold on the whole story.

so there. things will balance themselves out.

[Blindhamsterman]

dirsa.. you are my hero!

[danielmn]

i think this all is a lot of talk about nothing... let me illustrate.

1 - the lowly level 1 rogue noticed the goblin camp, gathered a bunch of other lowly fighting men, investigated, fought, and came out victorious with loot - a masterwork sword. all present gained xp from fighting, and talked for next hour on how to divy up the sword, which was the equivalent of everyones wet dream, and finally came up with some solution...

2 - bob the wizard of doom wandered upon the same goblin camp instead. he scoffed, and fired of a fireball followed by dire boar. goblins were decimated in seconds, however.... guess what? he didn't get any xp whatsoever, because well... because he doesn't get xp from goblins any more... then he found the sword, which was the treasure of group in scenario 1, looked at it, checked the edge and said - damn... i wasted a fireball spell for a dull knife? this is almost rusted! because of his level, the reward which was perceived as something grand by low levels had absolutely no value for him... furthermore, if he actually did use a scroll or wand.. he probably ended up loosing gold on the whole story.

so there. things will balance themselves out.

I was wondering how long this would go until someone stated the obvious truth.

[mogonk]

I swore to myself I wouldn't post in here again, but the idea that that "example" illustrates anything at all is ridiculous.

Taking two really extreme examples of characters and then looking at their cost/benefit in terms of a single encounter type isn't real analysis, and doesn't yield useful conclusions. If we're playing on a server populated only by level 1 rogues and level 10 wizards, and the only encounter being added is groups of low lvl goblins, then yeah, excellent point.

High lvl characters can benefit from encounters of appropriate CR, CR lower than appropriate, and CR slightly higher than appropriate. In other words, almost all encounters, period. They also stand a better chance of surviving encounters that they cannot win, and are therefore more willing to take chances and benefit from doing so.

Low lvl PCs have none of those advantages. They can only benefit from lvl appropriate encounters, and they are more likely to die in encounters they can't handle, as opposed to taking a few hits and escaping, and are therefore less willing to take chances or benefit from doing so.

So, which group will do better? Which will benefit more from these encounters?

[dirsa]

so i imagine the proposal here is to remove all spawns what so ever?

[mogonk]

so i imagine the proposal here is to remove all spawns what so ever?

Nope. I'm simply saying that if an existing game dynamic is already creating a problem in the status quo, before we enhance that dynamic we should:

A. Try to find a way to address the problem that already exists
B. Try to find a way to prevent the feature enhancement from creating a further problem

...before we just embrace something because it sounds "fun" and we're bored.

Zelknolf has the best idea for accomplishing B. If we do this on any kind of scale without something like the script he proposed, it will be a mistake.

A is a subject for a whole different thread.

[danielmn]

so i imagine the proposal here is to remove all spawns what so ever?

Nope. I'm simply saying that if an existing game dynamic is already creating a problem in the status quo, before we enhance that dynamic we should:

A. Try to find a way to address the problem that already exists
B. Try to find a way to prevent the feature enhancement from creating a further problem

...before we just embrace something because it sounds "fun" and we're bored.

A. Problem - DM does not alway have the time to run full sets of adventures.
B. Solution - DM sets up mini adventures that does not require DM supervision to complete.

A. Problem - Not everyone is in a timezone, or in a cohesive enough group to garner DM attention.
B. Solution - DM sets up mini adventures that does not require DM supervision to complete.

PERCEIVED Problems - higher level PC's taking advantage.
Solution - MORE statics that lower levels can and are supposed to take advantage of, thereby offering them something further to do until medium/high levels are attained.
There should be NO arguement that low levels don't have anything to do on some servers. Arguement is bunk. However, arguement can be stated that medium/high level PC's have little to do when a DM isn't on, as they are likely to do all relevant statics before then.
-further wealth gap of low vrs. high level - arguement is bunk. ALFA is Faerun, not the Soviet Union. There are SUPPOSED to be wealth gaps between low, medium and high level PC's. Taking a look at wealth standards, you will find most PC's, even the highest level PC in ALFA is underwealthed for their level.