Could you clarify where you are getting the "shift in focus" impression from? Many have noted that 18+ is much closer to the current status quo than PG-13. To be perfectly clear, I am taking them at their word for this rather than claiming some experience to the contrary.Analogkid wrote:Its the shift in focus that bothers me.
Much of real life does have an 18+ rating, actually (or some other 'adults only' designation -- speaking of the US). Want to drive a motor vehicle? You need to be an adult. Want to work at a full time job and become a productive member of society? You need to be an adult. There are many reasons for this, and most of them don't even have anything to do with sex. One can find examples of this nearly anywhere you go.Analogkid wrote:By this logic, real life should having an 18+ rating. I know the powers that be, only have the authority to slap that rating here and not in real life but still.
I certainly agree with you here! Some aspects of these deities are difficult to morph into a PG-13 only form though. How do you differentiate between Bane and Loviatar when you can't talk about half of the practicies of those deities?Analogkid wrote: I never suggested banning romance, and given that I play a Banite I would be against tossing out Bane and other evil deities.
I'm sure that nobody would toss the deities out entirely. But I think that they would certainly start to run together a bit more with some of the differentiating bits cut out in the name of only permitting PG-13.
I understand this -- what I do not understand, however, is the assumption that anything that is not PG-13 yields a nightmare scenario of dancing nude elves in the streets of every city and town in ALFA. (There was a partial attempt at humor in there.)Analogid wrote:My concern is even the superficial shift in ALFA where it looks like it is promoting the hardcore cybering aspect of "romance"
From a personal standpoint, I have a strong belief that people should be free to do whatever they want in private[1] so long as they're not hurting or causing harm to others. That's a somewhat different topic from this discussion, however, which is whether the world should be restricted to everything PG-13.
Does 18+/Adults Only mean that all references to sex are verbotten? No, it doesn't. Does it mean that the focus of the game world has somehow shifted 173 degrees towards "hardcore cybersex R US"? I think that it's fair to say that this is an (extreme) mischaracterization. You might as well say that everyone in favor of 18+ is promoting death by cancer due to smoking because once you're an adult, you can by cigarattes in the store.
I think that we cheapen our characters by forbidding interactions that are above the level of that which is designed for young children, yes.Analogkid wrote:Giving ourselves an adults only rating is the only way to have a fully three dimensional character?
Let's look at an example. Say a hypothetical character, we'll call him Mr. Wheedlesmith, a Lliiran priest, is having a particularly bad day. His lover of several years was just kidnapped by a mod Loviatarian, and then tortured to death for him to find. This so shakes the foundations of his faith to the core, that Mr. Wheedlesmith abandons his faith to take up the cause of Hoar, seeking vengeance at all costs on the perpetrator of this heinous crime.
We're already not PG-13 (Lover tortured to death? I certainly would have a hard time considering that PG-13 even in mention), and that's still a major papering-over of an event so momentous that it shook a priest's faith in his god to the core, causing him to abandon his (hither-to-now) life's calling for one nearly diametrically opposed to it. I would think that, especially if the characters involved were PCs and there was permadeath involved, that the event deserves more characterization and description than a few sentences summarizing what had happened, watering it all down for PG-13.
Note here that this event would have almost certainly not occurred in the middle of the streets of a busy town. This means that it would almost certainly be the case that a character would have intentionally had to act to involve themselves to the plot line.
It wouldn't ruin the game. However, I believe that it diminishes the interactions we have when we have a laundry list of topics that must be proverbially swept under the rug in some awkward fashion each time they arise.Analogkid wrote:How exactly would keeping things as they are with a warning of unrated content, or a 13+ rating ruin the game.
This, I must specifically protest, as it seems more like an attempt to box anyone saying something contrary to your views on this topic into being branded a "champaion of public orgies" than anything else.Analogkid wrote:Unless your character enjoys performing public orgies, there should be no issue.
Let's talk about this for a moment. This sounds to me like you're saying that you're fine with the world not being PG-13 (I'll assume that you mean that this extends to evil acts too and the like) if the parts that you object to are not happening in town streets and the like?Analogkid wrote:If someone wants to "romance" another a certain way, the usual thing is to go to a private place and you can then knock your socks off, after appropriate wooing of course.
This is important, because I find it difficult to believe that Loviatarians stringing persons up in the streets, public orgies, and all else that is bad with the world (there may be an attempt at humor here) would stand for very long in the proud city of Baldur's Gate, or any other place enforcing the rule of the law, before the (in-game) authorities would step in and take action.
This provides for a wealth of in-game mechanics that would disincent what you seem to be most worried about (if I understand your worries correctly -- that is, being made an unwilling party in certain types of RP).
Now, some things may well be acceptable in the streets of a major city which aren't PG-13. For example, I can see a number of situations where coarse language would be appropriate in the form of RP.
--
[1] That's not to say that just because you can do something (in private or not), that it's a good idea. There are plenty of people who do things I personally consider very stupid, in private or otherwise. But that's their business, really, as long as they're not hurting anyone out of it.
The Admin as a group decide these sorts of things, with detailed feed-back from members. If nothing else, we ought to offer a new poll after members have had a chance to hash-out the subtleties of the issues here. My own reaction to the poll has changed three times, evolved as I’ve realized the complexity of these issues. Clearly there’s too much at stake here to make a snap judgment; and, while I know there was nothing but good intention in offering the poll, to be fair, we might want to offer another option, such as “ALFA remains open to the 13+ crowd with the understanding that adult themes and content are fine when agreed upon (more or less the status-quo).”
